Thaksin’s imminent return stirs hope, anxiety in Thailand

[herfiehandbag]

7 minutes ago, bannork said:

Thaksin's callous remarks regarding Tak Bai and the disappearance of the Muslim lawyer Somchai certainly fuelled an air of impunity amongst Thai authorities.

At Tak Bai scores of Muslim youth protesters suffocated whilst being transferred to an army camp from Tak Bai. Hands tied behind their backs, they were placed like logs, one on top of each other for the journey.

Thaksin remarked, ' They were weak, fasting, it was Ramadan'.

Sure, they were young, strong men 

Regarding Somchai, taken off the streets in broad daylight in Ramkhanhaeng and never seen again, Thaksin said, ' He probably had an argument with his wife and wanted a few days off.'

Thaksin, not known for his empathy 

 

Indeed, but that does not make him responsible for planning or conducting either operation. I rather suspect that the first he knew of either was when both became public. As for fuelling the sense of impunity, those (disgraceful ) comments were made after the event, the military had already acted. The military don't give a tuppeny toss what the civilian politicians, in government or not, think.

 

I am not defending what Thaksin is reported as having said. They were banal, I am saying he was not responsible for the actions.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, herfiehandbag said:

Indeed, but that does not make him responsible for planning or conducting either operation. I rather suspect that the first he knew of either was when both became public. As for fuelling the sense of impunity, those (disgraceful ) comments were made after the event, the military had already acted. The military don't give a tuppeny toss what the civilian politicians, in government or not, think.

 

I am not defending what Thaksin is reported as having said. They were banal, I am saying he was not responsible for the actions.

However it was on the TV news every night the paymaster receiving reports of the events of the day, deaths, arrests etc., etc.

[bannork]

12 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Indeed, but that does not make him responsible for planning or conducting either operation. I rather suspect that the first he knew of either was when both became public. As for fuelling the sense of impunity, those (disgraceful ) comments were made after the event, the military had already acted. The military don't give a tuppeny toss what the civilian politicians, in government or not, think.

 

I am not defending what Thaksin is reported as having said. They were banal, I am saying he was not responsible for the actions.

I'm glad you're not defending his words, I remember them at the time. An utter disgrace and a carte blanche for the authorities to behave with impunity.

He may not have been in control of the army but as Prime Minister he should have spoken out against such abuses, manslaughter and murder.

Back to the topic, Thaksin's return.

He's not coming back on the 10th, he's not coming back till he's absolutely sure he'll get pardoned for the three crimes he was found guilty of.

Not easy, 'case 1 mmmm, okay you're pardoned, now case 2 mmmm, not sure, there have been some official objections to this pardon, you'll have to stay in jail until this is worked out. ...'

So how can Thaksin try to ensure he doesn't spend one day in jail?

Bring Pravit into the government, preferably as PM.

But then if Thaksin returns the boos may outnumber the cheers, not something he anticipated.

I can't see him coming back.

 

[Artisi]

15 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Indeed, but that does not make him responsible for planning or conducting either operation. I rather suspect that the first he knew of either was when both became public. As for fuelling the sense of impunity, those (disgraceful ) comments were made after the event, the military had already acted. The military don't give a tuppeny toss what the civilian politicians, in government or not, think.

 

I am not defending what Thaksin is reported as having said. They were banal, I am saying he was not responsible for the actions.

Correct, but certainly responsible for not having those responsible for these acts removed from their positions and tried for the deaths of these people. By doing S F A he in effect agreed with and condoned their actions, therefore he's just as guilty by default. 

[Hunz Kittisak]

15 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Indeed, but that does not make him responsible for planning or conducting either operation. I rather suspect that the first he knew of either was when both became public. As for fuelling the sense of impunity, those (disgraceful ) comments were made after the event, the military had already acted. The military don't give a tuppeny toss what the civilian politicians, in government or not, think.

 

I am not defending what Thaksin is reported as having said. They were banal, I am saying he was not responsible for the actions.

Thaksin is the best of the lot out there that can do some good. 
Pita? He can’t even get a seat at the table much less do something good. They are already planning to get rid of him now as we speak. His time will come just not now. 

Thaksin is what is needed now the country has already gone to the dogs the last decade since the Generals are in charge. 
 

Thaksin is the lesser of two evils. Just like Trump for America

[Eric Loh]

3 hours ago, bannork said:

I'm glad you're not defending his words, I remember them at the time. An utter disgrace and a carte blanche for the authorities to behave with impunity.

He may not have been in control of the army but as Prime Minister he should have spoken out against such abuses, manslaughter and murder.

Back to the topic, Thaksin's return.

He's not coming back on the 10th, he's not coming back till he's absolutely sure he'll get pardoned for the three crimes he was found guilty of.

Not easy, 'case 1 mmmm, okay you're pardoned, now case 2 mmmm, not sure, there have been some official objections to this pardon, you'll have to stay in jail until this is worked out. ...'

So how can Thaksin try to ensure he doesn't spend one day in jail?

Bring Pravit into the government, preferably as PM.

But then if Thaksin returns the boos may outnumber the cheers, not something he anticipated.

I can't see him coming back.

 

He did apologies for the massacre at Tak Bai but stop short of accepting responsibility, saying the operation was under then army chief Gen Prawit. 

 

It's confirmed that he is not coming back on August 10 when the anger and rage are on PTP. His home coming is ill timed for now. Many yellow shirts are MFP supporters and will invite unnecessary diversion. 

[bannork]

1 hour ago, Eric Loh said:

He did apologies for the massacre at Tak Bai but stop short of accepting responsibility, saying the operation was under then army chief Gen Prawit. 

 

It's confirmed that he is not coming back on August 10 when the anger and rage are on PTP. His home coming is ill timed for now. Many yellow shirts are MFP supporters and will invite unnecessary diversion. 

Why would many yellow shirts, Royalists, become MF supporters and thus support reform of 112?

The anger directed at PT will also come from its own supporters if PT team up with Pravit.

 

 

[Eric Loh]

29 minutes ago, bannork said:

Why would many yellow shirts, Royalists, become MF supporters and thus support reform of 112?

The anger directed at PT will also come from its own supporters if PT team up with Pravit.

 

 

Yellow shirts are Thaksin haters. If they are royalist, Bangkokians will vote PPTP or UTN. Coalition parties still up in the air. So much twists and turns. A new government is badly needed in this time of economic woes. 

[bannork]

1 minute ago, Eric Loh said:

Yellow shirts are Thaksin haters. If they are royalist, Bangkokians will vote PPTP or UTN. Coalition parties still up in the air. So much twists and turns. A new government is badly needed in this time of economic woes. 

It's interesting discussing the reasons yellow shirts joined MF but sadly at present it's beyond open discussion in Thailand.

Regarding a new government, it was all ready to go but the senators blocked it.

Their fault.

Secondly, PT. When Pita was rejected, all they had to do was announce they would go into Opposition with MF as the senators had no business selecting the PM.

Then let the pro junta parties form a minority government. They refuse or fail, then a new election is called. 

At least it would be blindingly obvious to the Thai people the whole cause of the cluster fluck is the senators

But no, PT want power and most importantly  the paymaster, the owner, wants to come home.

But he can't do that without joining with the junta lovers in a secret deal which will in itself cause a large loss of support for PT as the deal will surely see PT ceding important ministries to Pravit's party and others for it's Thaksin whose desperate for this deal, not them 

 

 

[Neeranam]

On 8/2/2023 at 9:30 AM, scottiejohn said:

That is not how the majority of the Thai people saw him and his government when he was re-elected in 2005 by an overwhelming majority.

He bought votes. 

[scottiejohn]

27 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

He bought votes. 

With his policies!

[Artisi]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

He bought votes. 

No no no, he was elected solely on his outstanding ability and the love of his fellow Thai's, he would never stoop so low as to offer money for votes. 

[bannork]

Yes, he was cunning, for example the 1 million baht fund per village from state coffers.

Thaksin wins votes from this grassroots policy 

.Who distributes this fund? A village committee, ( village head, friends and family).Funds were limited, I e. 10,000 baht a head.

That's not enough to start a business but hey! It's perfect for buying one of those new phones owned by AIS, at that time owned by Thaksin.

Thaksin makes money!

Drinks all round!

.

 

 

[SoilSpoil]

3 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

With his policies!

No 500 baht per vote. The canvassers came to our house.

[billd766]

23 hours ago, scorecard said:

However it was on the TV news every night the paymaster receiving reports of the events of the day, deaths, arrests etc., etc.

Some results like these are available most days on ANN/TVF and they also available in the Thai papers, websites and on social media. He probably also gets reports from the PTP website and from his family here in Thailand

 

In fact I would be surprised if Thaksin did NOT get and read the daily reports.

 

He certainly knows and understands more of what is going on in/with Thai politics than any farang here in Thailand, or offshore for that matter.

 

In addition perhaps some old friends in the police may send him stuff.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

Some results like these are available most days on ANN/TVF and they also available in the Thai papers, websites and on social media. He probably also gets reports from the PTP website and from his family here in Thailand

 

In fact I would be surprised if Thaksin did NOT get and read the daily reports.

 

He certainly knows and understands more of what is going on in/with Thai politics than any farang here in Thailand, or offshore for that matter.

 

In addition perhaps some old friends in the police may send him stuff.

I have no argument with what you say, I'm sure for a long time he's has access to various news and other gov't reports. And he can of course access these reports etc., anywhere in the world.

 

And no doubt he's informed of all sorts of details / analysis / insights which many Thai and many farang don't know exist and therefore don't / can't access.

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by scorecard

[puck2]

Every time, when I go to our public hospital, I cannot but think of Thaksin. I see a lot of poor people with their children, mostly hilltribe people.

 

Thaksin opened the public health insurance for 99% of the Thais. Without this nearly free insurance many Thais, especially the poor,  would not be able to be treated in a hospital.  Before they  didn't have  enough cash to pay the invoices of the treatment by a doctor or a hospital. This saved lives and solved health problems of the Thai people.

 

I believe that this is the reason that most of the Thai people love or like him until today.

 

This is in a strong contrast to what the military leaders did after their coup. He gave public health insurance, the military minions bought (useless) submarines.

 

No Thai politician had done this before - respecting the poor people.  Thaksin was not free of corruption etc., but this public health insurance was and is a light in the darkness.

[GarryP]

11 hours ago, puck2 said:

Every time, when I go to our public hospital, I cannot but think of Thaksin. I see a lot of poor people with their children, mostly hilltribe people.

 

Thaksin opened the public health insurance for 99% of the Thais. Without this nearly free insurance many Thais, especially the poor,  would not be able to be treated in a hospital.  Before they  didn't have  enough cash to pay the invoices of the treatment by a doctor or a hospital. This saved lives and solved health problems of the Thai people.

 

I believe that this is the reason that most of the Thai people love or like him until today.

 

This is in a strong contrast to what the military leaders did after their coup. He gave public health insurance, the military minions bought (useless) submarines.

 

No Thai politician had done this before - respecting the poor people.  Thaksin was not free of corruption etc., but this public health insurance was and is a light in the darkness.

Yes, he introduced some very good policies, including the health scheme, infrastructure improved upcountry, i.e. concrete village roads instead of red gravel, etc. But most importantly he showed the upcountry folk that their voice/vote was important. But respecting the poor people? Really? Do you really believe he did this for altruistic reasons? He is a selfish, conniving @#*& (please add the word of your choice) who only really cares about himself. 

[SoilSpoil]

22 hours ago, bannork said:

Why would many yellow shirts, Royalists, become MF supporters and thus support reform of 112?

The anger directed at PT will also come from its own supporters if PT team up with Pravit.

 

 

Most original yellow shirts were not royalists, but  formed by Bangkok's middle class who had enough of the nepotism under the Thaksin regime. The yellow color group was 'hijacked" by the royalists to push their agenda through. Pretty much the same as the red shirts were used by the Shins,

[billd766]

1 hour ago, GarryP said:

Yes, he introduced some very good policies, including the health scheme, infrastructure improved upcountry, i.e. concrete village roads instead of red gravel, etc. But most importantly he showed the upcountry folk that their voice/vote was important. But respecting the poor people? Really? Do you really believe he did this for altruistic reasons? He is a selfish, conniving @#*& (please add the word of your choice) who only really cares about himself. 

So how would you describe every military coup general who stole Thailand from the Thai people, and every unelected senator who is defying the will of the Thai people?

 

At the least, Thaksin stood for public election  and the PTP became the legally elected government. He is the only civilian PM in Thai history to serve a full 4 year term, following which he stood again and the PTP won an overall majority at a free and fair election.

 

How many generals have EVER stood in any election?  The answer is NONE.

How many generals have EVER been punished for committing a military coup?The answer is the same. NONE.

 

They prefer to steal the entire country at the point of a gun, backed up by tanks. Then they tear up the constitution and write another in their own favour, and include a blanket amnesty for themselves for ALL past, present and future acts. Something that Thaksin never did.

 

Do they respect the majority of the Thai people? The current impasse over the legal vote for Pita and the MFP should give you a clue.

 

They are terrified of the Thai people taking control of the country legally, as they know that their only power is fear, backed by guns. If they lose that fear, then they are finished.

 

It has been said that the people hate the military.

 

IMHO it is not the military that they hate, but those generals who control it, and those above the generals, all the way up who direct it.

[GarryP]

6 hours ago, billd766 said:

So how would you describe every military coup general who stole Thailand from the Thai people, and every unelected senator who is defying the will of the Thai people?

 

At the least, Thaksin stood for public election  and the PTP became the legally elected government. He is the only civilian PM in Thai history to serve a full 4 year term, following which he stood again and the PTP won an overall majority at a free and fair election.

 

How many generals have EVER stood in any election?  The answer is NONE.

How many generals have EVER been punished for committing a military coup?The answer is the same. NONE.

 

They prefer to steal the entire country at the point of a gun, backed up by tanks. Then they tear up the constitution and write another in their own favour, and include a blanket amnesty for themselves for ALL past, present and future acts. Something that Thaksin never did.

 

Do they respect the majority of the Thai people? The current impasse over the legal vote for Pita and the MFP should give you a clue.

 

They are terrified of the Thai people taking control of the country legally, as they know that their only power is fear, backed by guns. If they lose that fear, then they are finished.

 

It has been said that the people hate the military.

 

IMHO it is not the military that they hate, but those generals who control it, and those above the generals, all the way up who direct it.

My comment was soley in relation to TS. It had nothing to do with the generals or the senators. 

 

You do not want to know my thoughts on the generals or the senators. Very dark indeed. Sufficient to say I would not be at all upset at the passing of most of them. Very few of them actually deserve any respect, nor are they up to the task their positions require. Total waste of oxygen.    

 

I agree that it is the generals that are hated, not the military as a whole. In fact didn't many of the rank and file vote for MFP? 

 

That doesn't distract from the fact that while TS was elected, he was/is still a @#*&. Democratically elected people aren't all saints. 

[Dogmatix]

7 hours ago, billd766 said:

So how would you describe every military coup general who stole Thailand from the Thai people, and every unelected senator who is defying the will of the Thai people?

 

At the least, Thaksin stood for public election  and the PTP became the legally elected government. He is the only civilian PM in Thai history to serve a full 4 year term, following which he stood again and the PTP won an overall majority at a free and fair election.

 

How many generals have EVER stood in any election?  The answer is NONE.

How many generals have EVER been punished for committing a military coup?The answer is the same. NONE.

 

They prefer to steal the entire country at the point of a gun, backed up by tanks. Then they tear up the constitution and write another in their own favour, and include a blanket amnesty for themselves for ALL past, present and future acts. Something that Thaksin never did.

 

Do they respect the majority of the Thai people? The current impasse over the legal vote for Pita and the MFP should give you a clue.

 

They are terrified of the Thai people taking control of the country legally, as they know that their only power is fear, backed by guns. If they lose that fear, then they are finished.

 

It has been said that the people hate the military.

 

IMHO it is not the military that they hate, but those generals who control it, and those above the generals, all the way up who direct it.

You wrong in saying no general has ever been punished for staging a military coup. General Chalard was summarily executed without trial for staging a coup because he pulled out his pistol and murdered a senior officer in the King's Guard for refusing to join him. The coup failed and the prime minister signed an order to have him executed a month later. 

[Hunz Kittisak]

21 hours ago, puck2 said:

Every time, when I go to our public hospital, I cannot but think of Thaksin. I see a lot of poor people with their children, mostly hilltribe people.

 

Thaksin opened the public health insurance for 99% of the Thais. Without this nearly free insurance many Thais, especially the poor,  would not be able to be treated in a hospital.  Before they  didn't have  enough cash to pay the invoices of the treatment by a doctor or a hospital. This saved lives and solved health problems of the Thai people.

 

I believe that this is the reason that most of the Thai people love or like him until today.

 

This is in a strong contrast to what the military leaders did after their coup. He gave public health insurance, the military minions bought (useless) submarines.

 

No Thai politician had done this before - respecting the poor people.  Thaksin was not free of corruption etc., but this public health insurance was and is a light in the darkness.

Every one of them was/ is corrupt 

Was Thaksin more or less corrupt? No one knows for sure.
What the common folk Thais are sure of  was that he was the only one who gave something back and he did the most for them. 

 

[Hunz Kittisak]

13 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

You wrong in saying no general has ever been punished for staging a military coup. General Chalard was summarily executed without trial for staging a coup because he pulled out his pistol and murdered a senior officer in the King's Guard for refusing to join him. The coup failed and the prime minister signed an order to have him executed a month later. 

Yes almost 50 years ago 

thanks for the history lesson 

and kindly note that general failed, 

successful coup leaders were never punished 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Hunz Kittisak

[billd766]

42 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

You wrong in saying no general has ever been punished for staging a military coup. General Chalard was summarily executed without trial for staging a coup because he pulled out his pistol and murdered a senior officer in the King's Guard for refusing to join him. The coup failed and the prime minister signed an order to have him executed a month later. 

Really? I did not know that so I did an internet search for him.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalard_Worachat

 

It seems that Wikipedia does not agree with you about him. Unless you are talking about a different Chalard. That could explain it as you have not given his full name and title.

 

Second search attempt.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1977_Thai_coup_d'état_attempt

 

It seems as though you were talking about Chalard Hiranyasiri who is someone else.

 

Chalard Hiranyasiri was executed one month later without trial, in retaliation of the killing of Arun Thavathasin,  a close friend of King Bhumibol Adulyadej.

 

Not as a punishment for a successful or failed military coup, but for murder.

 

So he was not executed as a punishment for a coup attempt, but for murder.

 

There are several other links, but they require me to disable my Ad blocker. Why would I need to disable it when it is doing the job it was designed for?

[Artisi]

On 8/4/2023 at 8:58 PM, bannork said:

Yes, he was cunning, for example the 1 million baht fund per village from state coffers.

Thaksin wins votes from this grassroots policy 

.Who distributes this fund? A village committee, ( village head, friends and family).Funds were limited, I e. 10,000 baht a head.

That's not enough to start a business but hey! It's perfect for buying one of those new phones owned by AIS, at that time owned by Thaksin.

Thaksin makes money!

Drinks all round!

.

 

 

And put thousands of Thai's into further and deeper debt, but who cares, it achieved it's aim -more votes. 

[bannork]

14 minutes ago, Artisi said:

And put thousands of Thai's into further and deeper debt, but who cares, it achieved it's aim -more votes. 

Exactly, and his vision of turning sor bor kor land documents that legally have to be passed down through family lines, into chanote, full land deeds. 

What would happen? The poor would sell their land to speculators, for sure.

[Eric Loh]

47 minutes ago, Artisi said:

And put thousands of Thai's into further and deeper debt, but who cares, it achieved it's aim -more votes. 

You rather have the thousand of Thais borrow from loan sharks? 

[KhunLA]

His imminent return is still in the news, yearly, since he left in 2006 ????

 

I guess he'll hit Elvis status after he dies, and 'seen' somewhere by someone.  He is 74 already.

[Artisi]

1 hour ago, Eric Loh said:

You rather have the thousand of Thais borrow from loan sharks? 

At the end of the day, they had to borrow from loan sharks anyway to pay back their "loan" from the village fund which was due for repayment after 12 months. So as they say in Thailand - same same.

Plus there is still millions missing from this scheme with much of it in the pockets people who were supposed to distribute it fairly. 

But as I said - it's ok, it got the necessary votes. 

Edited August 6, 2023 by Artisi