Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Thaindrew]

2 hours ago, John Drake said:

This guy has already reversed his campaign promises and laughed them off saying it doesn't matter. Could do the same thing with this tax policy too.

well not in his campaign and he wasn't even on the ballet, only in Thailand 

 

 

[Yumthai]

3 hours ago, kkjjhhss said:

The remaining 9.5 million baht obtained in crypt will be kept in a personal offshore account.

Can you recommend where (country/bank) and how to open a personal offshore bank account?

 

As you may know opening such account as a non resident (since you are Thai resident) is not an easy task.

 

Let's say you manage to open the offshore account as a Thai resident.

It's a non resident account (but maybe you can explain how to open a personal resident bank account offshore?).

CRS information will be reported each year to the bank account registered country address (Thailand, home country, ...).

 

[Thaindrew]

3 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

Of all the groups affected the real estate developers will have the most impact on Srettha for obvious reasons.  He is not going to care about expats because there are already exemptions for Elite and LTR visas and these are the only retirees they want.  The Thai stock traders are one of the target groups.  So they won't get any quarter.  

 

I can see an exemption for funds remitted by foreigners to buy condos or long leases transferred at the Land Department in the name of the foreign, i.e. not Thai wives' names.  There would be follow up to ensure the property was purchased and might be a minimum holding period of say 5 years like the LTFs and RMFs where you have to pay the tax saved, if you sell early, to prevent people bringing in a boatload of cash for a luxury condo and then flipping, paying only about 5% in tax instead 30-35%  This would take some time to draft and legislate.  So it might come after the new rule has taken effect puttin the market in limbo for a year or two. 

I can see that their is tax exemptions for the LTR Visas (thats by Royal decree 743), I am yet to prove Thailand Elite Visas share the same benefit, so far they haven't managed to give me a Yes / No answer to that simple question.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Thaindrew

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, No Forwarding Address said:

Wow, 36 pages in four days, gotta be some kind of record..........speaking of which, why the worry, it hasn't been implemented yet because they haven't a clue on how to implement it.     I wait with abated breath.     peace

Exactly, and all based on a media article, as they always have everything spot on.

[Dogmatix]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

Exactly, and all based on a media article, as they always have everything spot on.

Based on a Revenue Department order which is real.

[Dogmatix]

3 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

If I may put this here - this is my situation in the matter - and this might be relevant to other Aussies (and others) in a similar situation.

I am a tax resident of Thailand, because I am here over 180 days every year.  Therefore I am liable to pay income tax on any money earned overseas, anywhere in the world.  I am also a tax resident of Australia, because I am a Citizen and have money in a Superanuation Fund that is taxed by the Australian Tax Office (ATO).

My Age Pension (in fact any Government payment) is specifically excluded from being taxed by Thailand, in the Tax Agreement (TA) between the two countries.  And in every other with other countries that I looked at randomly, Governmment payments are not taxable in Thailand.  I would check that out for yours.

Australia | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th) 

In addition to the Pension, I have before, and will in the future, take some funds out and place that in an Aust bank account, and then transfer that to my bank account in Thailand.  That is the concern, because 'technically' the interest earned in my Super Fund is 'assessable income' for tax purposes - when it is remitted to Thailand.

My 'technical' tax obligation to Thailand under the TA requires that it applies to the interest earned, and that the tax that I paid to the Australian Tax Office for that, is offset against what tax could be applied in Thailand.

Aust Super Funds do not pay earned interest on an individual level, it is done across the whole Fund ($Billions).  The Fund pays the applicable tax to the ATO, and then puts any 'earnings' after the tax is applied, back into everyone's account. They calculate and pay tax on the Fund level, and whatever is left over (or under like in the GFC) is credited or debited againsat each Member's account based on their percentage share of the Fund. 

As you can imagine explaining all that to Somchai the local RF Officer, and providing him with written proof that he would accept, will be impossible.

But having said all that khrapp, the question becomes when will the Thai RD know I personally have remitted taxable money into Thailand? Are they going to look at every bank transfer of every tax resident in Thailand? No!

IMO what the Thai Govt will do is require the banks to advise them of any incoming transfer amount over X Baht, and to advise them of any single person who has transferred over Y Baht into Thailand in any year.

Who knows what those amounts will be - 500K and 1 Million? 1 million and 5 million?  Either way, that is the key IMO to dealing with this. Find out those numbers and then keep transfers below the amounts that will draw the attention of the Thai RD.

I have calculated that the tax already paid in Australia is higher than the amount that would be taxed in Thailand, and therefore I do not need to lodge a tax return.  If I got that wrong, I am so sorry.

Will I be ever be audited and in 2030 asked to pay back taxes - I very much doubt it as the funds involved would not be worth their time. However, it could still happen, and I will cross that bridge when I come to it. It definitely makes me even more reluctant to buy a property in Thailand.

At a guess I would say that this issue needs to be cleared up either by the Thai RD figuring it out by itself and issuing a regulation to cover it (highly unlikely) or by the Australian government negotiating an amendment to the Thai-Australia double tax treaty, which would take years.  Until either of those things happen, it seems unlikely you would be able to produce documentation to convince the RD to allow a tax credit. But Srettha doesn't care. He just wants short term fixes that he can tell TV reporters will be done in 3 or 6 months, just like he is going to get rid of cannabis and speed pills. When the time comes and nothing happens he hopes to have moved the newsflow on.

[itsari]

On 9/20/2023 at 7:33 PM, transam said:

So what is a "tax resident"...? 

Not many tax residents in Thailand. 

Ask all the street traders if they are tax residents .

Quite sure of the response .

[pluto_manibo]

I would be interested in hearing what the Thai people investing abroad have to think about this sudden change of events.

[K2938]

On 9/21/2023 at 10:34 AM, stat said:

If you read my post carefully you would have noticed I mentionend to use the cc of a relative, friend etc ... Not even sure if the payment of cc even satisfies the wording of the law as brought into Thailand...

You might then be charged for money laundering so this might not necessarily be the best way forward.  If you do this once or twice, of course the likelihood of anybody noticing is slim.  But if you constantly use it and withdraw significant amounts of money this way, then things might be different.

[K2938]

On 9/21/2023 at 10:35 AM, Yumthai said:

According to 2023 PIT rules, need to declare a bit less than 1.75 M THB (~$48K currently) basic deductions included to get that rate.

What deductions are included in your calculation, please?  Asking because just looking at the tax rate table, a 15% marginal tax rate is already reached at more than 500k THB

[MartinBangkok]

6 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

Speaking of the housing market this tax turd would put the real estate market into a deep freeze as far as farang buyers go....Which is another reason I see this tax as dead on arrival .

Yes, but the thing is, the Chinese are coming, and in big numbers. 5 years from now, the Chinese will have bought all available condos (anything to get out of Xi's China). Thaksin is half Chinese, as are most of the Thailand elite. Chinese are welcome, people with white skin from developed democratic nations, are not. We are the Thai elites worst enemy, indusing  democratic thoughts into our Thai spouses, girlfriends, lovers, friends. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by MartinBangkok
Addition

[K2938]

23 hours ago, clearance said:

So, for example, if I'm a foreigner who lives in Thailand on an Elite visa. In 2024 I'm planning to buy a house or apartment there. I will transfer money from my savings abroad. And they will tax me for 35%?

Entirely possible, but it depends on what the detailed regulations will say which nobody knows yet

[Yumthai]

8 minutes ago, K2938 said:

What deductions are included in your calculation, please?  Asking because just looking at the tax rate table, a 15% marginal tax rate is already reached at more than 500k THB

Expenses 100K THB and Self allowance 60K THB.

500K annual income (minus deduction 160K) will give 2.3% average tax rate.

 

[wasabi]

Wonderful that they dropped this tax turd on us with no updates or further clarification for days.

[StayinThailand2much]

55 minutes ago, pluto_manibo said:

I would be interested in hearing what the Thai people investing abroad have to think about this sudden change of events.

There was an article very recently in "The Thaiger" where it was discussed that 'not all Thais investing overseas are rich', and often just 'make a few hundred baht income from such investments', so I guess it is not popular with them either.

[MartinBangkok]

4 hours ago, Thaindrew said:

I can see that their is tax exemptions for the LTR Visas (thats by Royal decree 743), I am yet to prove Thailand Elite Visas share the same benefit, so far they haven't managed to give me a Yes / No answer to that simple question.

Can anyone confirm that the LTR-visa gives you 0 tax under this new announcement? I doubt this is the case...

[StayinThailand2much]

18 minutes ago, MartinBangkok said:

Yes, but the thing is, the Chinese are coming, and in big numbers.

Many Chinese want their money to leave China due to problems with banks there. Perhaps they heard about that in Thai government and want to cash in on it.

[K2938]

10 minutes ago, MartinBangkok said:

Can anyone confirm that the LTR-visa gives you 0 tax under this new announcement? I doubt this is the case...

According to a fb post the BOI now appears to have confirmed that for LTR visa holders foreign earnings regardless of their remittance remain tax-free: 

Question:  "????????????, ???????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????? ????????????????????????????????? That is really what is supposed to be taxed based on the new tax law changes, regardless of the time it is brought into Thailand. Please kindly also comment on this for LTR visa holders."

Answer BOI:  "We would like to address that for the LTR tax benefits: the revenue department has already announced a royal decree to exempt the LTR- Wealthy Global/ Wealthy Pension/ Work from Thailand from paying the income tax derived from oversea business/ work and assets." 

This decree could of course also be changed, but for now LTR visa holders appear to be safe.

So it remains to be seen how the situation will be with 1) Elite visa holders, 2) retirement / marriage visa holders.

Edited September 22, 2023 by K2938

[MartinBangkok]

14 minutes ago, K2938 said:

According to a fb post the BOI now appears to have confirmed that for LTR visa holders foreign earnings regardless of their remittance remain tax-free: 

Question:  "????????????, ???????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????? ????????????????????????????????? That is really what is supposed to be taxed based on the new tax law changes, regardless of the time it is brought into Thailand. Please kindly also comment on this for LTR visa holders."

Answer BOI:  "We would like to address that for the LTR tax benefits: the revenue department has already announced a royal decree to exempt the LTR- Wealthy Global/ Wealthy Pension/ Work from Thailand from paying the income tax derived from oversea business/ work and assets." 

This decree could of course also be changed, but for now LTR visa holders appear to be safe.

So it remains to be seen how the situation will be with 1) Elite visa holders, 2) retirement / marriage visa holders.

Wow!!! Thanks a million @K2938. This is potentially great news! ???? (barring any U-turns)

[MartinBangkok]

28 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

Many Chinese want their money to leave China due to problems with banks there. Perhaps they heard about that in Thai government and want to cash in on it.

That could be the case. I agree. 

[Misty]

29 minutes ago, MartinBangkok said:

Can anyone confirm that the LTR-visa gives you 0 tax under this new announcement? I doubt this is the case...

This is from the LTR BOI website, privileges of the LTR visa:  https://ltr.boi.go.th/#pri

 

[Dogmatix]

An interesting question is whether banks would be ordered to withhold tax on all individuals to Thai or foreign individuals, maybe over a certain amount. So far withholding tax is applied to interest, dividends, services from contractors, property sales. In case of dividends, 10% tax is deducted and you have the choice of accepting that or filing them with your tax return, if you think you can get some tax back. Since many foreigners will have a problem figuring out tax returns, they might do the same and let you choose to accept the withholding tax or file, if you have tax credits or otherwise think you can get some of the tax back.  Of course that would mean waiting up to about 18 months to get a refund which would be somewhat inconvenient for some. On the other hand, leaving it up to foreigners to declare and pay at the end of the year would result in lost revenue from those who might accumulate a large tax bill over a few years of not filing and then flee the country when they start getting threatening letters. But the currently the law requires you do a self assessment, file a tax return and then pay any tax due.

[StayinThailand2much]

48 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

An interesting question is whether banks would be ordered to withhold tax on all individuals to Thai or foreign individuals (...)

That's my guess, and expats who have no income in Thailand would then be forced to try to get it back via a tax return. Anyway, until this isn't clear (in 2024), I will, personally, refrain from transferring any money to Thailand.

[Conno]

This might be of interest to Elite visa holders. Taken from the official Elite site [now Privilege] and not from one of those agent related Elite sites. Of course TIT so if this is set in stone or not remains to be seen. Point to ponder though, considering Thailand Elite have only just jacked their membership packages up from between 50% to 400%. it's possible they have been caught out just as much as everyone else with this news. I imagine if all this comes to pass it might really destroy their business model. i.e membership fee plus tax up to 35% extra on top. Who in their right mind is going to pay that?  So I'm speculating in the dark corridors of power there might be a good chance the Elite visas also end up remaining exempt. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Conno

[K2938]

36 minutes ago, Conno said:

Who in their right mind is going to pay that?  So I'm speculating in the dark corridors of power there might be a good chance the Elite visas also end up remaining exempt. 

Entirely agreed.  Unless Thai Elite visa holders will be protected from remittance tax, their applicant numbers will totally collapse.  Many justified the huge visa fee with the tax benefits.  If the tax benefits are gone, then of course Thai Elite will not make a lot of sense any longer for a lot of potential applicants.

Edited September 22, 2023 by K2938

[Conno]

44 minutes ago, K2938 said:

Entirely agreed.  Unless Thai Elite visa holders will be protected from remittance tax, their applicant numbers will totally collapse.  Many justified the huge visa fee with the tax benefits.  If the tax benefits are gone, then of course Thai Elite will not make a lot of sense any longer for a lot of potential applicants.

There must be legal implications to this too even though I am no expert. Is it really possible to renege on one of the most important benefits that was sold to members and possibly one of the most important in making the decision to go ahead and buy?.  I think it ranks a lot higher than discounts on spa treatments.  Of course there is the usual small print that states things like some benefits may be subject to change and beyond our control etc. OK even if it turns out that existing members have no case legally, this would be a devastating blow to Privilege marketing and future applicants. Something I am sure they are acutely aware of. Trust is everything, especially when talking about the sums of money involved with these visa packages. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Conno

[hondoelsinore]

The world is a vampire
Sent to drain
Secret destroyers
Hold you up to the flames
And what do I get
For my pain?
Betrayed desires
And a piece of the game

 

Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage
Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage
Someone will say, "What is lost can never be saved"
Despite all my rage, I am still just a rat in a cage

 

 

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

Based on a Revenue Department order which is real.

Interpretations are never real until they are actually implemented, then comes the workaround.

Of course you are free to worry if you so choose.

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

Based on a Revenue Department order which is real.

From the OP

"Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand."

Exempt

 

noun

a person who is exempt from something, especially the payment of tax.

[persimmon]

Something else to ponder - for long staying tourists , go significantly over 180 days , and they may not let you leave until you have filed a tax return !