Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

40 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

I have had a work permit for many years and have never been asked for my TIN by immigration so I would be cautious with the advice given to you by the two lawyers. Are they also CPAs? Do they have special training in taxation?

 

Normally you have to have taxable income above a certain amount to be required to file - or is the law different in Thailand about that?

 

I have noticed that Thai accounting rules do not always follow GAAP but seem to be close. Thai tax laws are also normally easy to understand from a Western point of view.

Certified in their profession by YouTube by all accounts!

[paddypower]

22 hours ago, firefly17 said:

If sending money over from UK property sale, I take it this is ok (after Jan)? I take it its not classed as income. 

interesting question - I must check  with an Irish friend who has a flat for sale in London. The extra problem is security - do you trust bringing a large sum of money into Thailand?  where do you invest it? I lost 5 mill  on a legal theft - but I made up for that by being fortunate enough to buy 2 beachfront lots. It's all relative, isn't it. ?

[Ben Zioner]

13 hours ago, beammeup said:

good info. Looks like Malaysia is not much different. I am sure many of us were considering there

as an alternative.

Malaysia is quite different, as @Flyguy330wrote: "I filed the thought away and enjoyed a couple of visits to Thailand this summer (BKK and Phuket). Had a great time - though I will say I found Thailand more expensive than Malaysia, less clean and organised, and the poverty of many of the people is much more striking on the streets. There's an air of desperation which I didn't like, and don't see in Malaysia.". I just came back  from another holiday in Penang and the  differences with Thailand are glaring, I'd be ok paying 15% remittance tax in Malaysia, will it would really hurt if I ended up paying income tax here. In Malaysia I'd get value for money.

[Ben Zioner]

18 hours ago, Flyguy330 said:

I've been reading this thread since it started, though I haven't had time to read every page. Been busy with other stuff at times!

I have a few minutes now and I'd like to make a few comments.

 

My own story first. I'm an Irish guy based in Malaysia on an MM2H Visa. I first arrived in Malaysia for a short 1 year work assignment in 1992 before returning home. I met a lady here and brought her home with me. We became regular holiday visitors back to Malaysia and I liked the place a lot. The MM2H Visa program evolved out of a previous 'Silver Hair' retirement program and I decided I'd retire here on it when I became eligible. The MM2H program at the time was advertised as a tax free visa - which was the biggest draw of all.

We moved to Malaysia in 2010 and have been very happily resident there, living completely tax free on my occupational pension. The tax saving is huge (about 40%) and the cost of living here is half or one third of back home. The weather is great. The food choice is superb. Property is cheap. Everyone (more or less) speaks english. I've never had a problem with the locals, they are generally friendly and polite. The country is modern - certainly KL is. The infrastructure is miles ahead of home.

 

So what's the problem I hear you ask? Why am I on a Thai forum!

 

The answer goes back to 2020 when Covid struck. Malaysia went into lockdown, and although I was fortunately 'in country' when that happened, many MM2H holders were 'locked out' and refused re-entry for almost a year. In addition the MM2H program was frozen and the interim Government announced they were reviewing the scheme.

In October 2021 things began moving again, the lockdown restrictions on interstate travel were lifted and the new MM2H criteria were announced. They were horrendously demanding, and it was said they'd apply even to existing MM2H holders on renewal. They also moved the management of the program from the friendly Tourist Board to the nasty and corrupt Immigration Department.

Applications for MM2H visas went through the floor.

 

 

At the same time the Malaysian Government announced that on January 1st 2022 they were going to bring in a 'Remittance Tax' on all money sent into the country from abroad. They declared that this rule was forced on them by the OECD - and the USA - as a money laundering/taxation loophole solution. This was confirmed by major foreign accountancy firms in Malaysia (PWC etc) who said that it was part of a global push to ensure EVERYONE pays a minimum 15% tax EVERWHERE. They stated that Malaysia was being 'grey listed' by the international bank of settlements, and they could be completely black-listed and locked out of the global SWIFT system if they refused to comply. I know that somecontributors on this thread have poo-poed this excuse, but I do think there is no doubt the threat exists. Check this link: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/08/business/oecd-global-minimum-tax.html

 

This news upset me a lot, and indeed it upset many Malaysians too - people who were living or working abroad and sending money home to support elderly relatives etc. Indeed the Sultan of Johor made a lot of noise about it, mainly because his state was the recipient of a lot of FDI from Chinese property buyers. The complaints grew so loud that - surprise surprise - the Government relented, and in December announced a 5 year delay on the implementation of their 'Foreign Sourced Income (FSI)' tax. We all breathed a sigh of relief. No change until 2026.

 

In July 2022 I went home on holidays. When I got back to Malaysia one of the first news articles I read announced that the Malaysian Government had just 'gazetted' (ratified) the FSI law, and BACKDATED it to January 1st! A total reversal of what they promised, and with retrospective effect. This is another point that I've wanted to comment on while reading through this forum. Some posters have made rosy tinged comments about how 'stable' the rules are in Malaysia compared to Thailand. Do not be under any such delusion! Malaysian politics is a swamp and a nightmare. It is the worst thing about living in the country. There is a constant state of political turmoil. Just like Thailand. This is Asia. Things were relatively OK here until 2018 when the long ruling party UMNO were kicked out of Government. While that was widely welcomed, and there was great hope for the future when it happened, things have just spiralled out of control since then. I won't go into all the details - but stop believing Malaysia is in any way politically stable, or likely to be any time in the next decade.

 

The other point to note is - they will change the rules of the game at the drop of a hat, and tough luck if you're caught out.

 

Amazingly for me it was just around this time that Thailand announced the LTR Visa scheme. As you all know it included a 'Royal Decree' that LTR Visa holders would be exempt from tax in Thailand. On the face of it this was a perfect solution for me. If I could get the LTR Visa I could hop in and out of Thailand at will, reduce my spending in Malaysia, and even bring legal amounts of cash back with me on return to Malaysia. We do not want to leave Malaysia, especially since the DTA that exempts my Irish Pension from tax at source depends on the Malaysian tax residency remaining in force.

 

I duly applied for the LTR Visa. The application process was superb. Great website, easy to complete, fast response from the BOI in perfect English, and a basic eligibility approval in 2 weeks. Another few documents were requested and provided, and I got my letter of approval in about 6 weeks since first application - the WP version.

 

Everything was going ticketyboo, but a little nag in the back of my mind kept asking - if this 15% tax thing is being forced on all countries worldwide, how can Thailand be exmpt from it?

I filed the thought away and enjoyed a couple of visits to Thailand this summer (BKK and Phuket). Had a great time - though I will say I found Thailand more expensive than Malaysia, less clean and organised, and the poverty of many of the people is much more striking on the streets. There's an air of desperation which I didn't like, and don't see in Malaysia.

 

Of course you know the rest of the story. My nagging question suddenly became the news of the day last month. Thailand announced that all FSI would be taxable next January 1st! Forced on them by the Globalists! So the net is closing. All the 'little people' will be required to cough up. Wherever they are.

 

There may be doubts as to the fine detail of all this, both in Malaysia (where a review of the MM2H rules is underway by the NEW government) and in Thailand where the rules seem to be a total grey area and may remain so forever.

 

Sorry this was so long, I hope you found it useful, but the final takeaway is - don't believe that Malaysia is any better than Thailand when it comes down to rule bending and breaking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes the situation here   is eerily similar to that in Malaysia  a  year  ago.

 

Same  from Same from PWC

 

[The Cyclist]

23 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

 

Yes the situation here   is eerily similar to that in Malaysia  a  year  ago.

 

Same  from Same from PWC

 

 

And the PWC article highlights something that has been said many, many times

 

Quote

2. Are there any conditions for resident individuals to qualify for the FSI exemption?

Qualifying FSI is exempt from tax provided the income has been subjected to tax in the country of origin. FSI received from individuals is regarded as having been subject to tax in the country of origin if:

a) Income tax or withholding tax on the FSI has been paid or is payable

 

If your money has already been taxed prior to remitting to Thailand, it is highly unlikely that it will get taxed again in Thailand.

 

If your money has not been taxed, or you cannot prove it has been taxed, you will probably be up <deleted> creek without a paddle.

[Flyguy330]

Morning all,

 

Quote

Thanks for you article and the good info on Malysia! Do you have any further info on how the remittance tax will be implemented in Malaysia?

 

However there seems to be a missunderstanding regarding the minium 15% tax.  The supposedly "worldwide" minimum tax is for corporations only, it does not apply to individuals! It is not even close to ww even for corps. Even stated in the article you linked "for corps only" in the headline so fear not! CRS or the minimum tax is NOT a reason for a remittance tax. However some politicians try to frame it in this way.

 

Stat, the remittance tax is being done by self reporting. In the past 12 years I lived in Malaysia I never had to file a tax return. Now I do. If I don't they'll come after me. They are quite well organised here in many respects, especially when it comes to getting taxes I think. I could of course lie, and declare nothing. But if you get audited and caught fiddling - the likely consequence is being kicked out of the country, which I definitely don't want. Anyway, I didn't go into the details very much in my last post, but there are legal avoidance methods. The Malaysians have stated that if you can show your declared remittances come from taxed income in a country with a DTA you can exempt them. At least for now. There's some rumouring that this too will change in 2026 (the Gov said that while they reversed their ealier promise of no remittance tax until 2026 they would still allow DTA exemptions until then). They also said that right now they'd apply a 15% tax, but in 2026 it would go to the FULL marginal tax rate in Malaysia (which I think is about 40% now - same as my home country).

I can indeed prove that my cash imports at present come from saved income, and I have all the paperwork to prove that. But I'm still only trickling in funds, in case they announce yet another policy reversal.

[freeworld]

34 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

And the PWC article highlights something that has been said many, many times

 

 

If your money has already been taxed prior to remitting to Thailand, it is highly unlikely that it will get taxed again in Thailand.

 

If your money has not been taxed, or you cannot prove it has been taxed, you will probably be up <deleted> creek without a paddle.

the way to prove it has been taxed is for the tax payer to get a certificate from the tax office where the taxes were payed.

 

That is the way it works in my home country and the tax office insists on it.

[The Cyclist]

Just now, freeworld said:

the way to prove it has been taxed is for the tax payer to get a certificate from the tax office where the taxes were payed.

 

In the UK it is provided by way of an annual P60, which shows the amount of earnings and the amount of tax paid.

 

Certainly for income through employment and pensions.

 

2 x Pensions ( different providers ) 2 x P 60's.

 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

5 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

I have had a work permit for many years and have never been asked for my TIN by immigration so I would be cautious with the advice given to you by the two lawyers. Are they also CPAs? Do they have special training in taxation?

Normally you have to have taxable income above a certain amount to be required to file - or is the law different in Thailand about that?

I have noticed that Thai accounting rules do not always follow GAAP but seem to be close. Thai tax laws are also normally easy to understand from a Western point of view.

 

If you were employed by a business, or own a business, or recived 'taxable income', it is compulsory to lodge a tax return in Thailand if your taxable income was over 120K Baht PA.

The interpretation and implementation ofg Thai tax laws are very 'fluid' depending on how the Thai RD are instructed. The recent change that led to this Post and lots of media reports, was an instruction from the Thai RD to change their previous interpretation of the tax laws.  

[TravelerEastWest]

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

If you were employed by a business, or own a business, or recived 'taxable income', it is compulsory to lodge a tax return in Thailand if your taxable income was over 120K Baht PA.

The interpretation and implementation ofg Thai tax laws are very 'fluid' depending on how the Thai RD are instructed. The recent change that led to this Post and lots of media reports, was an instruction from the Thai RD to change their previous interpretation of the tax laws.  

Actually, the interpretation worldwide can be "fluid" and often not only do national laws change but how they are administered locally. - They can and do change - legally and formally. As an example that I posted earlier:

 

The IRS in America can claim whatever they want and when a taxpayer takes them to court and wins the IRS can appeal and still lose - and key point - only follow the court in the local area. For example only California and nearby states but not in the north or East coast etc.

 

I am employed by a company and own a company and file Thai tax returns but not because I own a business or am employed by a business but because I earn over X baht. But I can't read Thai so maybe there is a law that says simply owning a company or working for one requires a tax return - possible but I have not heard of it...

[Flyguy330]

One other thing I want to comment on - there was some mention here that proceeds from a foreign property sale imported to Thailand are NOT tax exempt.

In Malaysia such proceeds are indeed tax exempt, according to the Malaysian IRD themselves and every big accountancy firm confirms it. So you can sell a foreign property and import the proceeds without being hit for remittance tax. This rule could of course be changed any day.

 

One other thing that I think gives Malaysia an advantage over Thailand is that foreigners can buy and own property (land included) in Malaysia Freehold, and without any funny business with 51% local owners and 'pre signed releases' from locals etc. Not many (any?) other countries in Asia allow this. Alright, Singapore and Hong Kong maybe. But Indonesia? Vietnam etc? You cannot own property freehold as a foreigner. I've known expat friends who lived here for years, owning property, and when it came their time to leave they sold up and then applied to export the proceeds. They got their monney out after the usual bureaucratic hoops were jumped through. I find that reassuring too. Not so sure about Thailand from the comments here. So I guess I will not be buying, if I need to stay at all.

 

Quote

FYI.  So far the Royal decree 743 still stands.

 

Thanks Ben Zioner. I hope you're right, but I'm waiting until next year to see what actually pans out. No rush.

[Maestro]

Removed some off-topic posts and the replies to them.

[stat]

7 hours ago, Flyguy330 said:

Morning all,

 

 

Stat, the remittance tax is being done by self reporting. In the past 12 years I lived in Malaysia I never had to file a tax return. Now I do. If I don't they'll come after me. They are quite well organised here in many respects, especially when it comes to getting taxes I think. I could of course lie, and declare nothing. But if you get audited and caught fiddling - the likely consequence is being kicked out of the country, which I definitely don't want. Anyway, I didn't go into the details very much in my last post, but there are legal avoidance methods. The Malaysians have stated that if you can show your declared remittances come from taxed income in a country with a DTA you can exempt them. At least for now. There's some rumouring that this too will change in 2026 (the Gov said that while they reversed their ealier promise of no remittance tax until 2026 they would still allow DTA exemptions until then). They also said that right now they'd apply a 15% tax, but in 2026 it would go to the FULL marginal tax rate in Malaysia (which I think is about 40% now - same as my home country).

I can indeed prove that my cash imports at present come from saved income, and I have all the paperwork to prove that. But I'm still only trickling in funds, in case they announce yet another policy reversal.

Much obliged for your detailed answer! Are there any guidelines on mixed funds in the same account? Which money is already taxed and which is cap gain if I transfer 10K? Thanks! Malaysia or PH is my backup option however I have never been to the PH.

[stat]

11 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I wonder what would happen if… I bought a house for £100,000, sold it for £200,000 but only remitted £100,000, would this be classed as savings (let’s say the money to buy the house came from taxed income) or would they view it as the Capital Gains? 

This is exactly the big question! Will thay go for 50% is cap gain or will it be fifo (first in first out) ie first 100K is notional.

[Ben Zioner]

4 hours ago, Flyguy330 said:

One other thing I want to comment on - there was some mention here that proceeds from a foreign property sale imported to Thailand are NOT tax exempt.

In Malaysia such proceeds are indeed tax exempt, according to the Malaysian IRD themselves and every big accountancy firm confirms it. So you can sell a foreign property and import the proceeds without being hit for remittance tax. This rule could of course be changed any day.

 

One other thing that I think gives Malaysia an advantage over Thailand is that foreigners can buy and own property (land included) in Malaysia Freehold, and without any funny business with 51% local owners and 'pre signed releases' from locals etc. Not many (any?) other countries in Asia allow this. Alright, Singapore and Hong Kong maybe. But Indonesia? Vietnam etc? You cannot own property freehold as a foreigner. I've known expat friends who lived here for years, owning property, and when it came their time to leave they sold up and then applied to export the proceeds. They got their monney out after the usual bureaucratic hoops were jumped through. I find that reassuring too. Not so sure about Thailand from the comments here. So I guess I will not be buying, if I need to stay at all.

 

 

Thanks Ben Zioner. I hope you're right, but I'm waiting until next year to see what actually pans out. No rush.

One other thing ought ought to know is that if you stay in Thailand less than 180 days a year you can remit to Thailand as much as you want. So in case you  want to bring cash from Thailand to Malaysia. But you need, a reliable money changer in Thailand, as you wouldn't want to change THB to RM in Malaysia.

 

As  regards  the LTR tax incentive, I'll take it as long as it lasts, but I don't want to get caught with my pants down, so I'll take mitigation measures right now to keep my income tax in the 10-15% range, if the worst was to happen. Guess it will, even though we don't know when.

[Flyguy330]

1 hour ago, Ben Zioner said:

One other thing ought ought to know is that if you stay in Thailand less than 180 days a year you can remit to Thailand as much as you want. So in case you  want to bring cash from Thailand to Malaysia. But you need, a reliable money changer in Thailand, as you wouldn't want to change THB to RM in Malaysia.

 

 

Yes indeed, as a non tax resident that's possible. I'd be sending EUR to collect in Thailand, then bring them to Malaysia for exchange to RM there. I'm not sure it's even possible to convert currency into RM in Thailand - there are still currency controls in Malaysia dating back to the Asian Financial Crisis. The them PM, Mahathir Mohamed instigated them to stop international speculators (like G.Soros) from attacking the Ringgit. It worked too, it has to be said, though it's a bit inconvenient that they are still in place. It basically stops you buying the Ringgit OTC anywhere but in Malaysia.

You can't hold a Ringgit account in banks outside Malaysia.

Not that I'd really want to!

[DonniePeverley]

 

Can anyone summarise these past 123 pages in about two lines as to what is going on ?

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, DonniePeverley said:

 

Can anyone summarise these past 123 pages in about two lines as to what is going on ?

Nobody knows, wait and see.....hows that?

[EVENKEEL]

Kinda reminds me of the endless pages about required health insurance few years back. 123 pages.....not bad.

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, DonniePeverley said:

 

Can anyone summarise these past 123 pages in about two lines as to what is going on ?

Income tax heavens Domino effect, Malaysia fell on January 1 this year, Thailand  will on January 1, 2024.  And Portugal fell  a few years  back.

[stat]

4 hours ago, DonniePeverley said:

 

Can anyone summarise these past 123 pages in about two lines as to what is going on ?

Maybe you will have to pay income on the monies you remit to Thailand if you stay more then 180 days in TH from Jan 1. 2024 onwards. Likely you will only have to pay income tax on the gains part you made that has not yet been taxed.

[retiree]

5 hours ago, DonniePeverley said:

Can anyone summarise these past 123 pages in about two lines as to what is going on ?

 

An agency of the Thai government announced a simple, straightforward change in the interpretation of a single phrase in a single clause in a single sentence of a single paragraph of a single section of a simple and straightforward tax regulation:   ... ในปีภาษีที่ล่วงมาแล้ว.  

 

In the past it was interpreted as "in the past tax year", but as of January 1, 2024 it will be understood to mean "in a past tax year "; note that Thai does not rely on the definite article "a" or "the" in the way that English grammar does. 

 

The revised interpretation will primarily impact Thai nationals, and a legal challenge to this change in longstanding practice is expected in the coming year. 

[Guavaman]

5 hours ago, retiree said:

Can anyone summarise these past 123 pages in about two lines as to what is going on ?

On 15 September 2023, the Director General of the Revenue Department issued the Revenue Departmental Order No. Por. 161/2566 re: Income Taxation under section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code ("New Order").

 

This New Order will require Thai tax resident individuals who bring offshore-sourced income (i.e., income from work or business carried on outside Thailand or income from property situated outside Thailand) into Thailand from 1 January 2024 onward to be subject to Thai personal income tax, regardless of whether such income is brought into Thailand in the same calendar year of receipt or in subsequent years.

 

https://insightplus.bakermckenzie.com/bm/tax/thailand-offshore-sourced-income-brought-into-thailand-from-1-january-2024-onward-will-be-subject-to-thai-personal-income-tax

[retiree]

8 hours ago, retiree said:

 13 hours ago, DonniePeverley said:

Can anyone summarise these past 123 pages in about two lines as to what is going on ?

 

An agency of the Thai government announced a simple, straightforward change in the interpretation of a single phrase in a single clause in a single sentence of a single paragraph of a single section of a simple and straightforward tax regulation:   ... ในปีภาษีที่ล่วงมาแล้ว.  

 

In the past it was interpreted as "in the past tax year", but as of January 1, 2024 it will be understood to mean "in a past tax year "; note that Thai does not rely on the definite article "a" or "the" in the way that English grammar does. 

 

The revised interpretation will primarily impact Thai nationals, and a legal challenge to this change in longstanding practice is expected in the coming year. 

In regard to the 123 pages specifically, many individuals realize that they are tax residents who may have to begin filing Thai tax returns; like many first-time filers in new jurisdictions they have questions about the application of longstanding regulations (which have not been altered), and may seek tax accountants (or alternative tax jurisdictions) in the coming year.

[paddypower]

On 10/29/2023 at 8:10 AM, paddypower said:

interesting question - I must check  with an Irish friend who has a flat for sale in London. The extra problem is security - do you trust bringing a large sum of money into Thailand?  where do you invest it? I lost 5 mill  on a legal theft - but I made up for that by being fortunate enough to buy 2 beachfront lots. It's all relative, isn't it. ?

are you confused every day, or just today?

[paddypower]

9 hours ago, stat said:

Maybe you will have to pay income on the monies you remit to Thailand if you stay more then 180 days in TH from Jan 1. 2024 onwards. Likely you will only have to pay income tax on the gains part you made that has not yet been taxed.

you've raised an interest topic - if you live in Thailand for more than 180 days in a given year - are there regulations describing what your tax status is ? (never mind the Immigration rules).

[paddypower]

4 hours ago, Guavaman said:

On 15 September 2023, the Director General of the Revenue Department issued the Revenue Departmental Order No. Por. 161/2566 re: Income Taxation under section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code ("New Order").

 

This New Order will require Thai tax resident individuals who bring offshore-sourced income (i.e., income from work or business carried on outside Thailand or income from property situated outside Thailand) into Thailand from 1 January 2024 onward to be subject to Thai personal income tax, regardless of whether such income is brought into Thailand in the same calendar year of receipt or in subsequent years.

 

https://insightplus.bakermckenzie.com/bm/tax/thailand-offshore-sourced-income-brought-into-thailand-from-1-january-2024-onward-will-be-subject-to-thai-personal-income-tax

Thanks - I will try to read that publication. But,  a quick question? is there a broad definition of  'income from work/business/property' . If pension income is not specified in the definition, then why are we discussing it?

[paddypower]

4 hours ago, Guavaman said:

On 15 September 2023, the Director General of the Revenue Department issued the Revenue Departmental Order No. Por. 161/2566 re: Income Taxation under section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code ("New Order").

 

This New Order will require Thai tax resident individuals who bring offshore-sourced income (i.e., income from work or business carried on outside Thailand or income from property situated outside Thailand) into Thailand from 1 January 2024 onward to be subject to Thai personal income tax, regardless of whether such income is brought into Thailand in the same calendar year of receipt or in subsequent years.

 

https://insightplus.bakermckenzie.com/bm/tax/thailand-offshore-sourced-income-brought-into-thailand-from-1-january-2024-onward-will-be-subject-to-thai-personal-income-tax

Has anyone noticed how similar the term 'New Order' is - to 'New World Order'. 😉 

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, paddypower said:

If pension income is not specified in the definition, then why are we discussing it?

 

Because the thread headline says

 

Quote

Thai government to tax all income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024

 

So feathers got ruffled and knickers got twisted into all sorts of tangents because people read the headline and got more excited than a big bag of excitable things..

[paddypower]

23 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

If you were employed by a business, or own a business, or recived 'taxable income', it is compulsory to lodge a tax return in Thailand if your taxable income was over 120K Baht PA.

The interpretation and implementation ofg Thai tax laws are very 'fluid' depending on how the Thai RD are instructed. The recent change that led to this Post and lots of media reports, was an instruction from the Thai RD to change their previous interpretation of the tax laws.  

correct, but do you mean 120k annually, after personal deductions etc? right?