Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[jerrymahoney]

Just to note that the Thai revenue Guide linked above Is:

 

For taxpayers who received income under Section 40(5)-(8) of
the Revenue Code.

 

Many on retirement finances would likely be dealt under:

 

40 (3) Fee of goodwill, copyright or any other rights, annuity or annual payment of income derived from a will, any other juristic act, or court decision.

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

You still have file a return to account for the funds, the source and origin of those funds is not relevant.

 

I can see that a tax return may be required in respect of the remittances to Thailand.But the source and origin of those funds is surely extremely relevant since we have been advised they will be tax exempt (because all pre-2024).

 

The question I suppose is how to convince RD the funds are indeed tax exempt.It might require some kind of detailed statement of investments as at 31.12.24

[TroubleandGrumpy]

4 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

You can always file a case in the Central Tax Court, if you disagree with the RD and the amount at stake is worth paying lawyers for several years and you can have the tax plus penalties and interest available in case you lose the case.  You might a precedent that would be helpful to others, if Thai courts didn't have a habit of ignoring precedents.

Dont forget the costs of translaters for all the written and verbal communications.  Any appeal against the Thai RD decision/sa, and any legal appeal to a Court,  must be 100% in Thai. The Thai RD will not accept any document in any other language and anything subm,itted to a Thai Court must be translated and certified by a Court approved tranbslater.  Plus they will only communicate with me in the Thai language, so if somehow I get to a Court, they will only speak Thai. That will probably cost a small fortune too.  So all up it will cost a medium fortune.  No worries - I am super rich and can afford to do it. Leave it with me boys 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

I can see that a tax return may be required in respect of the remittances to Thailand.But the source and origin of those funds is surely extremely relevant since we have been advised they will be tax exempt (because all pre-2024).

 

The question I suppose is how to convince RD the funds are indeed tax exempt.It might require some kind of detailed statement of investments as at 31.12.24

I believe the onus is on the tax filer to state what they believe in respect of those funds and to file on that basis. If you genuinely believe they are tax exempt, so state and file accordingly. If you believe they are not, complete your tax return accordingly and if necessary, pay tax.  The contents of tax returns don't have to be agreed between the filer and the RD beforehand, that's not the way it works in any country. AS Grumpy correctly stated,  it's based on the honor system so you need to be truthful. Whether or not the RD choses to challenge your return and demand supportive evidence is the same as in any country. In the UK, people with a certain profile are selected for audit periodically, the same will be true here. So no, you don't have to convince the RD before hand but you need to have that research available, in case you are asked. And that evidence or audit trail can easily  comprise a series of statements and fund transfe documents, the sort of thing that would be readily available anyway.

[jerrymahoney]

8 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

I can see that a tax return may be required in respect of the remittances to Thailand.But the source and origin of those funds is surely extremely relevant since we have been advised they will be tax exempt (because all pre-2024).

 

The question I suppose is how to convince RD the funds are indeed tax exempt.It might require some kind of detailed statement of investments as at 31.12.24

Some Immigration offices, if you are using the 65K+ baht per month extension variety, will ask for a "Source of Funds" document. Any such document accepted by Immigration would maybe be viewed as such by the RD folks.

[Morch]

I follow these topics, because I feel I ought to - but not really getting half of the details. talk etc. Not my thing.

 

Guess that what it comes down to (on a personal level, that is) will be whether the whole thing becomes too much of a bother, a bummer or both.

 

If and when - maybe will seriously reconsider living elsewhere (not immediately, for sure, not exactly panicking) - or alternatively, move less money in (as much as possible), postpone/cancel some larger expenditures/investments, maybe some long term evacuation option. Having a family, a house and a dog (well, that's like family) makes major changes less palatable, plus I don't really want to. If all it comes down to is paying a little extra (sans the bother) it's not a deal breaker.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Morch

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Dont forget the costs of translaters for all the written and verbal communications.  Any appeal against the Thai RD decision/sa, and any legal appeal to a Court,  must be 100% in Thai. The Thai RD will not accept any document in any other language and anything subm,itted to a Thai Court must be translated and certified by a Court approved tranbslater.  Plus they will only communicate with me in the Thai language, so if somehow I get to a Court, they will only speak Thai. That will probably cost a small fortune too.  So all up it will cost a medium fortune.  No worries - I am super rich and can afford to do it. Leave it with me boys 

Far too much worst case scenario, what if, far fetched, exception rather than rule....why even have that discussion!

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 11/30/2023 at 3:18 PM, Dario said:

Woaw, already 145 pages for this problem. I'm a Swiss national and after some research it appears that Switzerland has a Double Taxation Agreement with Thailand. Thailand cannot tax us again. Matter resolved.

No it is not.  Thailand has DTAs with 61 countries and that is not how DTAs work.

 

DTAs mean you can CLAIM exemptions and allowances on 'taxable income'. Some forms of money are exempt (eg. some Pensions) and some allowance can be CLAIMED for taxes already paid. Meaning you can CLAIM this amount of taxes paid (after proving it) against the taxes due in Thailand. Taxes in most western countries starts much much higher than the 150K Baht thrteshold in Thailand. 

 

DTAs are not the 'fix all' solution that some people are claiming - that is utter BS.

Wait until the Thai RD releases all its clarifications and exemptions - then we will all know where we stand and what money being remitted into Thailand will be liable for income taxes.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 11/30/2023 at 3:55 PM, Sato said:

You should read the DTA between Switzerland and Thailand (I did. You can download the DTA on PDF from a Swiss Government Web Page).

It clearly say's Thailand has tax sovereignty (except on pensions when you worked for the Swiss Governement or on income on real estates property you may have in Switzerland).

On interest rates and dividends you could end up paying tax twice.

You will have to pay tax on interest rates, dividends and capital gains in Thailand on your bank accounts you have in Switzerland. This interest rates and dividends are allready taxed by the Swiss witholding tax of 35%.

This Tax you will have to reclaim at the Swiss RD after you paded the tax in Thailand. To do so, the Thai RD must sign a declaration form from the Swiss RD which the Thai RD may not want to do.

 

Yes you are right - DTAs do not work like some poeple say.

 

But your example is the 'worst case' scenario - we will not know where we stand until the Thai RD perovides it clarifications and exemptions.

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You still have file a return to account for the funds, the source and origin of those funds is not relevant.

The source and origins of the funds mean everything - if they are 'taxable income'.

Edited December 2, 2023 by TroubleandGrumpy

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

The source and origins of the funds mean everything - if they are 'taxable income'.

So? As the filer they are your funds, you should know where they came from and their origin so it's down to you to determine if they are taxable income or not and to file accordingly.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

I follow these topics, because I feel I ought to - but not really getting half of the details. talk etc. Not my thing.

 

Guess that what it comes down to (on a personal level, that is) will be whether the whole thing becomes too much of a bother, a bummer or both.

 

If and when - maybe will seriously reconsider living elsewhere (not immediately, for sure, not exactly panicking) - or alternatively, move less money in (as much as possible), postpone/cancel some larger expenditures/investments, maybe some long term evacuation option. Having a family, a house and a dog (well, that's like family) makes major changes less palatable, plus I don't really want to. If all it comes down to is paying a little extra (sans the bother) it's not a deal breaker.

 

Good to see you planning ahead Morch - I agree with you except for one thing - I will not wait until it bites me on the rrrrse before deciding what to do.  I have all my money held overseas and I have a budget for 10+ years that includes bringing extra in money to Thailand.

 

There is no way I will accept not knowing if I can bring an extra 2 million Baht into Thailand, on top of the normal 1 Million Baht, in order to buy a car and furniture or whatever. I want certainty that I will not be forced to pay income taxes on the 3 Million Baht I bring into Thailand. And I want absolute certainty that if I do decide to buy a property in the future, that I will not be forced to pay income taxes that money either. 

[jayboy]

10 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

So no, you don't have to convince the RD before hand

 

Thanks for useful response which has helped clarify my thinking.

 

I wasn't however thinking of convincing RD beforehand, more of contemplating the complications in submitting the return if remittances had to be differentiated ie whether sourced before or after 2023.If the situation of savings/investments made prior to 31.12.23 becomes crystal clear (ie remittances not subject to tax), I'm not completely sure they need even be included.Anyway my attitude is the same as yours - if tax is due, I will pay it

[Mike Lister]

Just now, jayboy said:

 

Thanks for useful response which has helped clarify my thinking.

 

I wasn't however thinking of convincing RD beforehand, more of contemplating the complications in submitting the return if remittances had to be differentiated ie whether sourced before or after 2023.If the situation of savings/investments made prior to 31.12.23 becomes crystal clear (ie remittances not subject to tax), I'm not completely sure they need even be included.Anyway my attitude is the same as yours - if tax is due, I will pay it

Just make sure you get a year end statement on all tour various investments and accounts showing balances as at 31 December 2023 and use that as your baseline. Anything prior to that date is free and clear, anything after that date is potentially taxable.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

53 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes.....we agree, there is a god after all.  :))

42 !!

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

Good to see you planning ahead Morch - I agree with you except for one thing - I will not wait until it bites me on the rrrrse before deciding what to do.  I have all my money held overseas and I have a budget for 10+ years that includes bringing extra in money to Thailand.

 

There is no way I will accept not knowing if I can bring an extra 2 million Baht into Thailand, on top of the normal 1 Million Baht, in order to buy a car and furniture or whatever. I want certainty that I will not be forced to pay income taxes on the 3 Million Baht I bring into Thailand. And I want absolute certainty that if I do decide to buy a property in the future, that I will not be forced to pay income taxes that money either. 

Will you and your wife leave Thailand if you don't get it? 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

42 !!

Deep throat, I mean thought.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

41 minutes ago, tomkenet said:

Remittance in 2023 of income earned in 2023 is certainly taxable.

YES

 

It you wait until beginning of 2024 it will not be taxable.  Thats at least my understanding.

NO

 

It will all be taxable from 1 January 2024 onwards.  From that date forward it is irrelevant when the 'earnings' were made. Any money remitted into Thailand that is 'taxable earnings/income' from 1 Jan 2024 onwards is taxable, irrespective of what year that earnings/income was made/received. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

29 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Far too much worst case scenario, what if, far fetched, exception rather than rule....why even have that discussion!

We are joking Mike - sarcasm. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

17 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

So? As the filer they are your funds, you should know where they came from and their origin so it's down to you to determine if they are taxable income or not and to file accordingly.

I think we are in 'violent agreement' - the source of the funds means everything - maybe I misunderstood you.

You do not have to complete a tax return unless you have income taxes to pay.

Thailand does not want 30? 40? million people to file a tax return - it is optional.

Many Thais do not pay income taxes, not because they dont earn over 150K, it is because they dont lodge a tax return.

The Thai RD has no way of 'finding them' because many Thais earn their money in the 'cash economy'.

But when the Thai RD gets a list of people from the banks who have remitted over (say) 2-5-10 Million Baht, they can and will 'find them'.

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

11 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Will you and your wife leave Thailand if you don't get it? 

Only if we have to pay income taxes (unless a very small amount).

We will certainly move address if we somehow end up living near you mate 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I think we are in 'violent agreement' - the source of the funds means everything - maybe I misunderstood you.

You do not have to complete a tax return unless you have income taxes to pay.

Thailand does not want 30? 40? million people to file a tax return - it is optional.

Many Thais do not pay income taxes, not because they dont earn over 150K, it is because they dont lodge a tax return.

The Thai RD has no way of 'finding them' because many Thais earn their money in the 'cash economy'.

But when the Thai RD gets a list of people from the banks who have remitted over (say) 2-5-10 Million Baht, they can and will 'find them'.

 

Er, almost. I think that if the filer makes the determination that the funds he/she received in Thailand are not taxable for whatever reason, that doesn't mean you don't have to file a return showing excluded income, otherwise, the tally back to the bank transfers isn't there. That's what I think but I can't prove it. TBH I report all my excluded to the RD as and when they enter my tax information into the system. Whether or not they use or retain that information I don't know, at least I have declared it.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

12 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Deep throat, I mean thought.

There is your problem right there Mike. 

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

Good to see you planning ahead Morch - I agree with you except for one thing - I will not wait until it bites me on the rrrrse before deciding what to do.  I have all my money held overseas and I have a budget for 10+ years that includes bringing extra in money to Thailand.

 

There is no way I will accept not knowing if I can bring an extra 2 million Baht into Thailand, on top of the normal 1 Million Baht, in order to buy a car and furniture or whatever. I want certainty that I will not be forced to pay income taxes on the 3 Million Baht I bring into Thailand. And I want absolute certainty that if I do decide to buy a property in the future, that I will not be forced to pay income taxes that money either. 

 

Eh? Not really planning ahead. At least not anything concrete. Most of the money is overseas, the rest in accounts here or in gold/cash  (I dunno...1-2 million probably). My complaint is that I would like to ignore it - but feel that I shouldn't. This goes against the nature of the life I construed here.

 

For example, there's an expected visa extension immigration visit next week. Usually one of the boxes the need to fill in their forms is my 'income'. We always have a chat about this, me saying that it's more like what I spend, they insisting they need a figure - then we 'haggle'. It's all in good spirit, but now wondering if this could be used as 'proof' by RD sometime in the future. I don't like thinking this way.

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Thai RD tax guide from 2023 in English - 080966Ins94.pdf (rd.go.th)

 

1. The Thai RD has no idea what any money remitted into Thailand is from. They will/can know, but they do not know what it is from - pensions, savings, investments, drugs, whatever.  It is up to the person receiving the money to advise them what the source of that money was - either by doing a tax return, or by answering their enquiries as to why you received X Million Baht from overseas in 2024, 2025, 2026, etc., but you did not lodge a tax return. 

2. The Thai taxation system is an 'honour syetem' - you do not have to lodge a tax return if you or accountant determine that you have no income taxes payable.  However, if you are later found/decided to be wrong - you could be severely financially 'punished', and you could also be subject to detention, jail, deportation, etc.  This is not the Immigration Dept - there are no 'agents' and no 'payments' and the punishments can be severe.

3. Until 1 January 2024, any money brought into Thailand that was technically 'taxable', but had been earned prior to 2024, was not subjected to income tax - it was exempted. Only 'taxable income' brought into Thailand in the year it was earned, was taxable. Many wealthy Thai tax residents used this exemption to invest overseas, and then brig back the profist a few years later tax exempt.  That is the rule that has been changed - but that change 'technically' means that all money remitted into Thailand is taxable - because - refer to paragraph 1. 

Until the Thai RD provides their full list of clarifications of what is taxable and what is is exempted, then we only know that 'technically' all money remitted into Thailand is 'taxable'.  It is not until the Thai RD provides those clarifications and exemptions, then we will all know what is taxable, what is not, and therefore what each of us will decide to do.  

My plan, while waiting, is to bring forward any remittances I can, before end December 2023 (anything brought into Thailand in 2023 is not technically taxable). Then in 2024, I will only bring into Thailand what is absolutely necessary, while I wait to see how things go.  If I have to pay income taxes to Thailand on money I bring into Thailand to spend in Thailand (unless a very small amount) we will be leaving Thailand.  If I do not, then we will stay. 

There are several countries nearby that are far more 'friendly' to Expats - including those that only tax money made by Expats in their country - not money brought into the country by Expats. Obviously that would be stupid to stop Expats, who have come to live in your country, bringing money into your country to spend in your country - and on that money they spend they pay all 'point of sale taxes' (VAT). This IMO is where hopefully the Thai RD will realise they need to fix this problem, and will figure out how how to solve it. They are after those Tax Residents that have been sending money overseas to invest, and then bringing money back and paying no taxes on the profits made on that money.  The vast majority of Expats dont send money overseas - we only bring money into Thailand. 

 

When you say anything remitted before end Dec 2023 is not taxable I think that income earned in 2023 is taxable and possibly savings that you cannot show were generated as income prior to 2023.  Remember that P 161/2566 comes into effect on 1 Jan 2024 and the old rule is still in force till then.  P 162/2566 modified P 161/2566 which only comes into effect on 1 Jan.  So income generated and remitted in 2023 is still under the 1985 RD ruling and therefore taxable. 

 

In future we might be dealing with income arising anywhere in the world being taxable regardless of remittance to Thailand, if the RD can get this government or a successor government to amend the RC in that way, as they apparently want to do.  That might also necessitate a sort of amnesty for prior savings like P 162/2566. If all income generated before the start year is deemed non-assessable, then taxpayers could start with a clean slate and pay tax only on income arising from that date. 

 

It is OK for the RD to announce to the world what they feel the government and parliament should do. In fact it is the role of bureaucrats to make recommendations of this type on the understanding it is up to government and lawmakers whether they choose to follow the recommendations or not. But what is not OK in my book is when the bureaucrats use underhand methods to exceed their authority by effectively amending the law themselves in an unlawful manner, e.g. P 161/2566. But nothing to be done about it.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Dogmatix

[TroubleandGrumpy]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

Eh? Not really planning ahead. At least not anything concrete. Most of the money is overseas, the rest in accounts here or in gold/cash  (I dunno...1-2 million probably). My complaint is that I would like to ignore it - but feel that I shouldn't. This goes against the nature of the life I construed here.

 

For example, there's an expected visa extension immigration visit next week. Usually one of the boxes the need to fill in their forms is my 'income'. We always have a chat about this, me saying that it's more like what I spend, they insisting they need a figure - then we 'haggle'. It's all in good spirit, but now wondering if this could be used as 'proof' by RD sometime in the future. I don't like thinking this way.

 

Yes mate - I hear you and understand - I like to live that way too - struggling at the moment.

In fact - I have made my plans and done all the numbers - now is a good time to pull out of this and just wait.

I am renting and so we can leave at any time - just a matter of deciding.

 

Unfortunately, I can see things going more and more in a negative way in Thailand. 

Back in 2010 Thailand was so laid back and yes it was great for a long time.

Then the Junta came in with the 'good guys in, bad guys out' etc etc.

I (foolishly?) thought that removing the Junta would result in more of the 'mai pen rai' ways coming back.

Looks like I was wrong - they now seem hell bent on steaming ahead with taxing everything that moves.

 

There are many reasons why I have concerns and this is the big one:-

There has been no media statement or clarification from PM/or a Minister or Thai RD stating that they do not want to tax Expats money.

This Govt has been very proactive is addressing negative media issues, and yet there has been nothing said about the about 200K Expats living in Thailand, nor to the about 400K Thais working overseas, or any other groups this tax rule change could affect. 

 

Meanwhile, in The Philippines they have recently clarified (again) that no working or retired or married Expats in thgeir country will be taxed on any income they earn overseas - only the income they make in The Philippines.  And that is something that this Thai Govt has not seemed to have considered - how will this impact working Expats - especially the Executives of Companies operating in Thailand.  Recently, Tesla made the decision to base its new SEAsia Headquarters in Malaysia - Thailand missed out - 20-30 years ago Thailand was the only real and obvious choice - not nowadays.  Vietnam, Malaysia and Indonesia are winning business investment business against Thailand for a reason - they are offering more attractive deals.  Same applies for the older Expats with money - there are better offers on the table than Thailand has to offer. I would rather stay here because of the Thai wife - but if they are going to hit me with income taxes (unless a minimal amount) then we are leaving.  Many people dont agree with me - and that is fine - but many do.  And new well-off Expats who have a lot more than the Pension to live on, and are looking around for where to retire, will not pick a place that will hit them with income taxes when they bring their hard-earned money into Thailand. 

 

That is where I stand and why - over and out of here.

This time for sure Rocky - nothing up my sleeve .............. 

 

This song is very 'on point' - the cover picture was taken in Bangkok.

 

 

[Dogmatix]

54 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

It will all be taxable from 1 January 2024 onwards.  From that date forward it is irrelevant when the 'earnings' were made. Any money remitted into Thailand that is 'taxable earnings/income' from 1 Jan 2024 onwards is taxable, irrespective of what year that earnings/income was made/received. 

 

As in my post above I think this is not correct. P 162/2566 exempts permanently any income earned before 1 Jan 2024 whenever it is remitted.

[tomkenet]

17 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

 

As in my post above I think this is not correct. P 162/2566 exempts permanently any income earned before 1 Jan 2024 whenever it is remitted.

That's exactly my point too, I believe Grumpy is wrong here.

[Enzian]

1. For over 5 years I've been receiving treatment from a government clinic in Bangkok for a rare condition, the treatment for which is the same as for a much more common condition. The crucial drug has been subsidized by the government. I'm almost always the only farang in there, tho I go in with my Thai SO. This past week we were informed that the cost of the treatment would on short notice now  go up by several orders of magnitude, except for government employees of any sort. The increase is more than many Thais make in a month. Will many patients simply forgo treatment and let the debilitating condition run its course? Or did they lie to me that it applies to ordinary Thais as well as me? They did say it was specifically a decision of the "new government". Would a different government (MFP?) have done the same? Is there any chance of a reversal?

My point is that this government is capable of many things which might surprise us. I do appreciate the years they helped me, but my Kaiser in California will give me the treatment every 9 weeks no questions asked for a $10 co-pay, and they are a generation ahead in procedure. I can fly to CA (one way at least) to see friends and family for the cost of the difference.

2. I just spent 2 nights in Bumrungrad with bacterial pneumonia that left me weak as a kitten. Because it was a bona fide emergency Kaiser paid ((97K!).; for ongoing treatment they will not. Well over 80, I self insure. Pollution season in Thailand is almost on us. I like to walk outdoors. Hot season is soon. For 10 months of the year the air and climate in the  Norcal Bay Area is among the best in the world. 

3. Now the Thai RD is leaving things deliberately vague imo, so there will always be a gotcha. 

You can see where I'm going with this. Thanks for reading.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Enzian
more

[The Cyclist]

5 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Wait until the Thai RD releases all its clarifications and exemptions - then we will all know where we stand and what money being remitted into Thailand will be liable for income taxes.

 

 

4 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

There has been no media statement or clarification from PM/or a Minister or Thai RD stating that they do not want to tax Expats money.

 

I think the paragraph from the original September statement is quite clear and concise.

 

Persons from a Country with a DTA with Thailand will be exempt.

 

* I will make an assumption, an assume that this will cover income that has already been taxed, and will not cover income that has not been taxed.

 

You make a loud noise about ignoring people that don't buy into your negativity, yet go out your way to ignore a certain paragraph from the original announcement.

 

Rather bizarre.