Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

13 hours ago, seajae said:

so does this mean all incoming money transfers from abroad, if so will they will be taxing pensions as well when they are transferred from other countries,

 

From what I'm reading here, you need to start with the critical comment in the full OP article that the whole policy being announced supposedly WILL NOT apply to citizens of numerous countries with whom Thailand has double taxation agreements.....

 

And those include Australia, Austria, Canada, China, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Great Britain, Hong Kong, India, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Korea, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Russia, Singapore, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United States, among others.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

11 hours ago, Sheryl said:

I strongly suggest people click on the link and read the full article, which clearly states:

 

"The program will begin January 1, 2024 and apply only to tax residents in Thailand meaning tourists and short term workers will be exempt. Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand. "

 

There is then a link to show which those countries are. 61 countries listed, including US, UK, Australia and many European countries.

 

Worth repeating for folks who come into this now very long thread toward its now very long end....

 

[Hokeus]

2 hours ago, Foxx said:

Great idea, apart from the fact that Wise doesn't let you hold balances in baht.

They do let you hold balances in Thai Baht however you are not able to remit Thai Baht into a Wise account. They only allow a select number of currencies to be remitted into a Wise account. Once the money is in there in one of the currencies they accept then you can convert it to Thai Baht and hold Thai Baht in the Wise account.

[Jenkins9039]

18 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

From what I'm reading here, you need to start with the critical comment in the full OP article that the whole policy being announced supposedly WILL NOT apply to citizens of numerous countries with whom Thailand has double taxation agreements.....

 

And those include Australia, Austria, Canada, China, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Great Britain, Hong Kong, India, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Korea, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Russia, Singapore, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United States, among others.

 

That's great till you realise it could be rental income from property, or stock income, dividends etc income, any form of income, and that in some cases is tax free as a non resident (at home) so no tax double treaty as you don't pay as a non resident... then you bring to thailand and its taxable.

[Jenkins9039]

Basically - sell everything and leave... best approach.

[Lorry]

24 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

From what I'm reading here, you need to start with the critical comment in the full OP article that the whole policy being announced supposedly WILL NOT apply to citizens of numerous countries with whom Thailand has double taxation agreements.....

 

And those include Australia, Austria, Canada, China, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Great Britain, Hong Kong, India, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Korea, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Russia, Singapore, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United States, among others.

 

This has been written here many times. But it's not the full truth.

 

You can't just say "hi, dear tax office, I am from Gambia, and as you know,  we have a DTA with Thailand.  Bye!"

Dogmatix' post just above yours explains much more realistically the bureaucratic nightmare awaiting you. 

First of all, you will probably need a tax adviser in your country and one in Thailand....

Have fun!

Edited September 18, 2023 by Lorry

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

9 minutes ago, Jenkins9039 said:

That's great till you realise it could be rental income from property, or stock income, dividends etc income, any form of income, and that in some cases is tax free as a non resident (at home) so no tax double treaty as you don't pay as a non resident... then you bring to thailand and its taxable.

I understand what you're saying, but practically speaking, I don't think the Thai revenue department is going to get down to that level of detail on different kinds of revenue sources...across all the many different nationalities present in Thailand.

 

I'm betting that the way it will end up working is IF the person is from a country with a double taxation agreement with Thailand, they're basically going to leave you alone regarding foreign source income, and let you continue to pay whatever tax you do or don't owe on your income at large to your home taxing authority.

 

Note the language in the OP report... It doesn't say this or that kind of income source will be exempt. It basically says people from countries that have DTAs with Thailand will be exempt from this new policy.

 

"The program will begin January 1, 2024 and apply only to tax residents in Thailand meaning tourists and short term workers will be exempt. Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand."

 

I'm an American, and a full time resident of Thailand. I have only non-Thai income from the U.S. and I pay taxes on it as required to the U.S., which has a DTA agreement with Thailand. Therefore, I ought be off the hook for all of this.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[h3ith]

2 hours ago, GeorgeCross said:

ALL of the time you have spent in thailand

Could be worse: Assume you purchased Apple or Amazon stock 10 or 20 years ago. If you sell them and transfer cash to TH to buy a condo, 90% of the amount would be old capital gains. Would TH revenue office calculate the capital gain starting with the stock price on 31 Dec 2023? Or the original stock purchase price of 10 years ago?

Or if your original savings of 100,000 came from your after-tax salary, 10 or 20 years ago, how do you prove to the TH tax office that this original capital should not be taxed as Thai income because the money had already been taxed by the home country? 

[Lorry]

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I understand what you're saying, but practically speaking, I don't think the Thai revenue department is going to get down to that level of detail on different kinds of revenue sources...across all the many different nationalities present in Thailand.

 

I'm betting that the way it will end up working is IF the person is from a country with a double taxation agreement with Thailand, they're basically going to leave you alone regarding foreign source income, and let you continue to pay whatever tax you do or don't owe on your income at large to your home taxing authority.

 

Then the whole regulation doesn't make a lot of sense. 

Thailand has a DTA with almost every country. 

I hope you are right,  though

[Lorry]

6 minutes ago, h3ith said:

Or the original stock purchase price of 10 years ago?

If you are a tax resident of Thailand (and don't pay tax anywhere else) this would be the logical answer.  

 

Realistically, I don't think it will happen. 

But you may need a tax adviser in both countries,  just to be safe

Edited September 18, 2023 by Lorry

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

10 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Then the whole regulation doesn't make a lot of sense. 

Thailand has a DTA with almost every country. 

I hope you are right,  though

I think someone above said 50-60 countries in total, and I reposted most of the individual ones a bit earlier here (linked below) that would be among those with expat communities here.  By my reading of the list, most of the biggies do have DTAs with Thailand, though I'm sure there are some exceptions.

 

FWIW, there are just short of 200 total countries in the world, many of whom probably have little to do with Thailand.

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Geir Rasch]

The tax treaty between Norway and Thailand has no mention of tax on savings. Savings are by nature already taxed in your hone country, so tax in Thailand would be double tax, which is what the tax treaty are set up to avoid. So I am relaxed about this news. They have to make a new treaty before they can tax my savings that I might bring over here.

[NanLaew]

13 hours ago, jvs said:

More info needed for sure but if it means retirees have to pay tax here

there will be not enough airplanes going back to Europe and other countries.

It will be a total disaster for many people including me.

Lets just wait for the small print before getting all worried and hope for the best.

On the other hand,if you have to pay tax here it should also give you some rights?

Probably not.

I paid tax while working under the H1 visa scheme in the US. Didn't afford me any "rights" beyond a smaller pay packet.

[thaibreaker]

4 hours ago, vibration said:

I am a British Citizen retired married to a Thai and staying in Thailand on a Thai Elite 5 Year PE Visa and this suits my needs very well.

 

I receive pensions from the UK that are lower than the UK Tax Free threshold and these are paid into my bank in Norway as I worked there for 32 years.

 

I receive Norwegian State pension and private pensions in Norway and these are taxable in Norway and also paid into my bank in Norway.

 

I send money from my bank account in Norway to Thailand when needed.

 

I am tax resident in Norway even though I do not have property there (my daughters have property and the tax office states that I can stay there) and I am also tax resident in Thailand because I stay here most of the year.

 

The Double Taxation Agreement between Thailand and Norway helps my situation significantly as all money sent to Thailand from Norway in a tax year can be used to offset the tax I paid in Norway and I normally get all tax paid in Norway paid back in full and evreything is legal.

 

As I am over 65 I am also eligible to an extra 190 000 THB deduction on my pension income in Thailand and the actual tax paid in Thailand depending on how much I transfer in a tax year has varied to date between 8000 and 25000 THB which I believe is very reasonable.

 

I always use a Norwegian Tax Lawyer Company in Thailand to write a letter to the Norwegian Tax Office for this and they also update my Norwegian Tax Return, I do the rest myself including Thai Tax Return, Thai Certificate of Income Tax Paid and Thai Tax Office Certificate of Residence.

 

I am posting this in case this may help others in a similar situation to myself.

Thanks for telling us your situation. But may I ask, as a Norwegian myself, why do you choose to pay taxes in Thailand, since you already do pay taxes from your pension in Norway? I assume this is something you have chosen to do, and filled out all the needed forms for that purpose. Most retirees I know from Norway do not go through this, because it's so much hassle doing so, with all the paperwork before getting your refund. And then you are in best case status quo, or probably minus, with taxes and all the expenses you have had.

 

Now, I do know the 183 days rule, but as far as I know, Thai authorities never ask for this pension to be taxed by Thailand. And since you pay full tax in Norway, most Norwegians just let this be.

 

For me personally, the taxes are much higher in Thailand than Norwegian government deduct from my pension. So I just wonder. Why go through it.

 

But kudos to you anyway, you are doing the right thing. And the right thing, is what scares a lot of people in this thread, to start paying Thai taxes for pension income, and go through all the hassle for a refund. Norway do have the same tax double agreement as 60 other countries, but with some small differences.

Edited September 18, 2023 by thaibreaker

[thintand]

it'll be interesting how it affects all the digital nomads. Lets say someone doesn't have a residence in their home country anymore so they're not a tax payer and the DBA is useless in this scenario. Also "work" without a work permit isn't technically allowed anyways so how will they enforce it? Will they add tax on "illegally" earned overseas income? ???? 

[NanLaew]

12 hours ago, freeworld said:

They are going to tax it if brought into Thailand.

 

OECD, G20, G7 all want every bit of income on earth to be taxed and pressure all countries outside of those groups to comply with their financial and taxation agreements and hence all the meetings and agreements between governments to achieve this.

 

 

Fundamentally correct. Reading between all the lines of legalese on taxation, dual taxation and tax treaties, the message is clear, if you are alive and breathing anywhere on this planet, you must pay tax.

[Lorry]

4 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

if you are alive and breathing

Not required.

Dead people can owe taxes, too.

[NanLaew]

4 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Not required.

Dead people can owe taxes, too.

Good point, but isn't that typically a one-off, lump sum levy in that you can only die once?

 

Those who find it too challenging can't be bothered to work out their Thai tax liabilities (if any) should try harder. They'll probably be pleasantly surprised.

[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, Thorgal said:

Which country in the world has the right to convert private money transfers into taxable income ?

 

You can be a tax resident in Thailand after 180 days on foreign sourced income, but only if this income derived from abroad is remitted to Thailand in the same year it is received.

 

While submitting a Thai income tax declaration form you also need to submit a legalized (foreign) bank statement from where the money was transferred. If it's from a private bank, no problem.

If it's directly from your employer or pension fund it's classified as taxable Thai income derived from abroad that is remitted to Thailand in the same year as it is received. 

 

 

But surely the whole point of them requiring copies of your foreign bank account statements is so they can see the source of the money that you are transferring into Thailand. 
 

E.g.  if they see an entry of £3,000 being paid into your account on September 1st from your pension provider and then a transfer of 132,000b from that account to your Thai Bank account on September 2nd they could match the 2 and say it’s “Income Earned” from your pension provider. 
 

BTW I can’t see them doing this in practise as it would be a massive amount of work to collate all the data of where income came in from (especially if it went back to previous years) & then try to match it with monies sent, just saying that it technically would be possible to do so. 
 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[The Old Bull]

If you are already submitting a tax return in Thailand it will be added if not forget about it.

[K2938]

1 hour ago, Jenkins9039 said:

Ref Elite (2019)

 

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20230608060701/https://www.thailandelite-direct.com/en/faqs

That is NOT the official Thai Elite website, but the site of an agent (Henley & Partners). 

[lamyai3]

9 hours ago, trainman34014 said:

question....Yes; you can reclaim the Tax on your 800k

This equates to around 100 baht per month based on the pitiful savings rates.

[Thorgal]

11 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

But surely the whole point of them requiring copies of your foreign bank account statements is so they can see the source of the money that you are transferring into Thailand. 
 

E.g.  if they see an entry of £3,000 being paid into your account on September 1st from your pension provider and then a transfer of 132,000b from that account to your Thai Bank account on September 2nd they could match the 2 and say it’s “Income Earned” from your pension provider. 
 

BTW I can’t see them doing this in practise as it would be a massive amount of work to collate all the data of where income came in from (especially if it went back to previous years) & then try to match it with monies sent, just saying that it technically would be possible to do so. 
 

As per another press release of the same subject this income tax change is only for Thai citizens (no need to thank me...)

 

"Thais earning income abroad and exploiting a well-known tax loophole are about to have their vibe killed by the country’s greatest party pooper: The government. A statement issued by the Revenue Department Friday announced that all money earned by Thai citizens must be taxed as personal income, effective January 1, 2024. 

 

https://coconuts.co/bangkok/news/thailand-to-tax-all-income-earned-abroad-starting-next-year/

[K2938]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I'm an American, and a full time resident of Thailand. I have only non-Thai income from the U.S. and I pay taxes on it as required to the U.S., which has a DTA agreement with Thailand. Therefore, I ought be off the hook for all of this.

That might well be true for you as a U.S. citizen as U.S. citizens are already in the worst possible tax position anywhere since the U.S. is the only country (except Eritrea) which has citizenship based taxation.  But many if not most of the people on this forum are not U.S. citizens, do not have citizenship based taxation and for them the situation is entirely different.

[chang50]

10 hours ago, Thorgal said:

As per another press release of the same subject this income tax change is only for Thai citizens (no need to thank me...)

 

"Thais earning income abroad and exploiting a well-known tax loophole are about to have their vibe killed by the country’s greatest party pooper: The government. A statement issued by the Revenue Department Friday announced that all money earned by Thai citizens must be taxed as personal income, effective January 1, 2024. 

 

https://coconuts.co/bangkok/news/thailand-to-tax-all-income-earned-abroad-starting-next-year/

Phew!

[K2938]

10 hours ago, Thorgal said:

As per another press release of the same subject this income tax change is only for Thai citizens (no need to thank me...)

 

"Thais earning income abroad and exploiting a well-known tax loophole are about to have their vibe killed by the country’s greatest party pooper: The government. A statement issued by the Revenue Department Friday announced that all money earned by Thai citizens must be taxed as personal income, effective January 1, 2024. 

Unfortunately, this is most likely just an error by the journalist.  The actual decree by the Thai Revenue Department says absolutely nothing about this allegedly being limited to Thai citizens only, but rather states it concerns Thai tax residents which is anybody residing in Thailand longer than 180 days in a year (https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/kormor/newlaw/dn161A.pdf)

[Jenkins9039]

24 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

As per another press release of the same subject this income tax change is only for Thai citizens (no need to thank me...)

 

"Thais earning income abroad and exploiting a well-known tax loophole are about to have their vibe killed by the country’s greatest party pooper: The government. A statement issued by the Revenue Department Friday announced that all money earned by Thai citizens must be taxed as personal income, effective January 1, 2024. 

 

https://coconuts.co/bangkok/news/thailand-to-tax-all-income-earned-abroad-starting-next-year/

Nope...

 

I posted above the complete translation plus here 

[Jenkins9039]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

But surely the whole point of them requiring copies of your foreign bank account statements is so they can see the source of the money that you are transferring into Thailand. 
 

E.g.  if they see an entry of £3,000 being paid into your account on September 1st from your pension provider and then a transfer of 132,000b from that account to your Thai Bank account on September 2nd they could match the 2 and say it’s “Income Earned” from your pension provider. 
 

BTW I can’t see them doing this in practise as it would be a massive amount of work to collate all the data of where income came in from (especially if it went back to previous years) & then try to match it with monies sent, just saying that it technically would be possible to do so. 
 

they don't need as OECD/CRS shares that information with them directly.

[Jenkins9039]

17 minutes ago, K2938 said:

Unfortunately, this is most likely just an error by the journalist.  The actual decree by the Thai Revenue Department says absolutely nothing about this allegedly being limited to Thai citizens only, but rather states it concerns Thai tax residents which is anybody residing in Thailand longer than 180 days in a year (https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/kormor/newlaw/dn161A.pdf)

Thai based residents as set out in paragraph 3 section 41 of the Revenue Code to be specific in their Edict.

ttps://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html

[ukrules]

46 minutes ago, K2938 said:

That is NOT the official Thai Elite website, but the site of an agent (Henley & Partners). 

Yes, it sounds like they're attempting to promote the TE visa by mentioning how people can benefit from the 'wire it into Thailand next year' thing.

 

I suspect he's not coming after foreigners, this is going to be aimed at the wealthy Thais, whether we get swept up in it is another thing altogether and it will alter a lot of peoples reason for living here - or people will simply send less money into Thailand and invest elsewhere.