Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[4MyEgo]

4 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

Go ahead - show me that quote in a link or attach a document.

 

This is going to be fun. 

 

 

This may help, go to 4 Resident.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/859.html

[jerrymahoney]

8 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

Go ahead - show me that quote in a link or attach a document.

 

This is going to be fun. 

 

9.    What is the method for elimination of double taxation provided in the agreement?  

- In a double taxation agreement, there are credit and exemption methods.  

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/23520.html

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

These are some quesations that I would like answered by Thai RD.  This is based upon an Expat that stays 180+ days, and does not earn any money in Thailand, and remits money into Thailand from overseas.   Anyone know how to ask them?

 

Does a long term Expat have to lodge an annual tax return from 2024 tax year onwards, in order to 'prove' that the money they have remitted into Thailand in that year, is not taxable or is exempt under an existing DTA ?

 

Can an Expat 'decide' that they do not have to lodge a return from 2024 tax year onwards, because they believe that the money they have remitted into Thailand in that year is not taxable or is exempt under an existing DTA ?

 

Can an Expat 'decide' that they do not have to lodge a return from 2024 tax year onwards, because they have calculated that some/all of the money they have remitted into Thailand in that year is 'taxable income', but it is below the Thai tax free threshold (with or without Allowances and Deductions) and therefore payment of income taxes is not required ?

 

Will/Does the Thai RD provide an English speaking (plus maybe Japanese, Korean, Chinese etc) call centre or service, whereby Expats as detailed above, can call and seek advice regarding their obligations to lodge income tax returns.  

My position is and has been clear from the start  - this is a very serious matter and discussing it and expressing opinions is not 'fear mongering'. If some people only erver want to hear good news and are wearing rose coloured glasses, then they should just stay away.  This new income tax rule means that unless Thai RD answers those questions above positively in our favour, then all Expats are going to be 'expected' to complete annual tax returns and pay income taxes if the Thai RD deems that applicable.  BUT - that has not been confirmed or denied by Thai RD - they are not answering our questions. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

4 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

9.    What is the method for elimination of double taxation provided in the agreement?  

- In a double taxation agreement, there are credit and exemption methods.  

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/23520.html

 

No - that is the DTA - I am asking him to provide the original announcement about the rule change.

 

QUOTE - I will refer you to the paragraph in the original announcement ( that you fastudiously ignore, or are incapable of understanding ) that people from Countries that have a DTA with Thailand will be exempt.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

9 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

This may help, go to 4 Resident.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/859.html

 

No - that is the DTA - I am asking him to provide the original announcement about the rule change.

 

QUOTE - I will refer you to the paragraph in the original announcement ( that you fastudiously ignore, or are incapable of understanding ) that people from Countries that have a DTA with Thailand will be exempt.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

These are some quesations that I would like answered by Thai RD.  This is based upon an Expat that stays 180+ days, and does not earn any money in Thailand, and remits money into Thailand from overseas.   Anyone know how to ask them?

 

Does a long term Expat have to lodge an annual tax return from 2024 tax year onwards, in order to 'prove' that the money they have remitted into Thailand in that year, is not taxable or is exempt under an existing DTA ?

 

Can an Expat 'decide' that they do not have to lodge a return from 2024 tax year onwards, because they believe that the money they have remitted into Thailand in that year is not taxable or is exempt under an existing DTA ?

 

Can an Expat 'decide' that they do not have to lodge a return from 2024 tax year onwards, because they have calculated that some/all of the money they have remitted into Thailand in that year is 'taxable income', but it is below the Thai tax free threshold (with or without Allowances and Deductions) and therefore payment of income taxes is not required ?

 

Will/Does the Thai RD provide an English speaking (plus maybe Japanese, Korean, Chinese etc) call centre or service, whereby Expats as detailed above, can call and seek advice regarding their obligations to lodge income tax returns.  

My position is and has been clear from the start  - this is a very serious matter and discussing it and expressing opinions is not 'fear mongering'. If some people only erver want to hear good news and are wearing rose coloured glasses, then they should just stay away.  This new income tax rule means that unless Thai RD answers those questions above positively in our favour, then all Expats are going to be 'expected' to complete annual tax returns and pay income taxes if the Thai RD deems that applicable.  BUT - that has not been confirmed or denied by Thai RD - they are not answering our questions. 

 

Why not go ask them.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Many people are starting from different points on the subject of tax, for many, tax is never something they have needed or wanted to understand hence there's a lot of ignorance surrounding the subject. In the UK, HMRC keeps a pretty tight reign on things and does most of the heavy lifting. In the US, Tax form filling companies abound. Here, neither of those things exist and many are fearful..

Exactly.  So many posters think this is not serious. And it may not be - but it sure looks like it is going to be serious.

 

Does an Expat have to PROVE they do not have to pay income taxes under a DTA - and if they do then HOW.

If we bring in 1 Million Baht how do we PROVE that is not income - what will Thai RD accept as evidence - WTF happens if they do not accept.

Do people think the Thai RD is geared up for all this - the Thai Immi is bad enough to deal with but dealing with Expats it is what they do.  

 

And then of course the big question (if we do have to pay) - Why the pharrk do I have to pay income taxes in a country that treats me like a parolee with all the repoting and applications and home visits etc.,  and charges me extra for everything (and legally can), and gives me no government services or support, and does not give me any legal rights (unless I am in business or employed) and etc etc etc. Voting? 10K Handout?? 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Why not go ask them.

Your not reading - same as many 

QUOTE - 

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Anyone know how to ask them?

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Exactly.  So many posters think this is not serious. And it may not be - but it sure looks like it is going to be serious.

 

Does an Expat have to PROVE they do not have to pay income taxes under a DTA - and if they do then HOW.

If we bring in 1 Million Baht how do we PROVE that is not income - what will Thai RD accept as evidence - WTF happens if they do not accept.

Do people think the Thai RD is geared up for all this - the Thai Immi is bad enough to deal with but dealing with Expats it is what they do.  

 

And then of course the big question (if we do have to pay) - Why the pharrk do I have to pay income taxes in a country that treats me like a parolee with all the repoting and applications and home visits etc.,  and charges me extra for everything (and legally can), and gives me no government services or support, and does not give me any legal rights (unless I am in business or employed) and etc etc etc. Voting? 10K Handout?? 

 

Why don't you go ask them?

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Your not reading - same as many 

QUOTE - 

 

Er, I'm not convinced I said that, if I did, I don't recall the context, perhaps you can help!

 

Er, um, the RD would be a reasonable choice for a place to start.

[jerrymahoney]

The quote above " In a double taxation agreement, there are credit and exemption methods." It doesn't that under any circumstances there will not be DTA credit and exemption methods.

 

That is good enough for me 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Er, I'm not convinced I said that, if I did, I don't recall the context, perhaps you can help!

 

Er, um, the RD would be a reasonable choice for a place to start.

 

That was the new server being troublesome.

I asked in my post -  "Anyone know how to ask them?" (my list of questions)

Somehow it has quoted that as your statement.

When you actually said - Why don't you go ask them?

 

I have tried website - no luck with phone either - they have a 'review committee' apparently - but dont seem to be 'listening'. 

Remember they published a list of Qs and As - they must have asked themselves those Qs.

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

That was the new server being troublesome.

I asked in my post -  "Anyone know how to ask them?" (my list of questions)

Somehow it has quoted that as your statement.

When you actually said - Why don't you go ask them?

 

I have tried website - no luck with phone either - they have a 'review committee' apparently - but dont seem to be 'listening'. 

Remember they published a list of Qs and As - they must have asked themselves those Qs.

 

 

I find that going to a larger RD office is best, if you lived nearby we could go together. :))

[The Cyclist]

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

Go ahead - show me that quote in a link or attach a document.

 

This is going to be fun. 

 

 

It has been posted across multiple threads including this one.

 

Have fun finding it.

 

Although with the doom and gloom that is currently covering you like a massive black cloud, I doubt you could find your undercrackers in the dark.

 

Have you packed up yet and organised a shipping Company ?

 

Now that is funny.

 

 

[4MyEgo]

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

BUT - that has not been confirmed or denied by Thai RD - they are not answering our questions. 

 

Which means it's a dead duck, cabinet has to approve it, and until cabinet approves it, it's just another dead duck, lots of dead ducks in Thailand.

 

Just get on enjoying your time here, tax free, until you see a duck cross your path, simple really.

[Mike Teavee]

24 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

It has been posted across multiple threads including this one.

Whilst the original article posted in the Thaiger (and other places) stated people from countries that have a DTA with Thailand will be exempt, the original statement from the Revenue Department quoted in the article makes no mention of this. 

 

Revenue Department orders No. P.162/2023
Subject: Payment of income tax under Section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code.

For the revenue officers to consider as a practice guideline for inspecting and giving advice to those residing in Thailand. which has assessable income according to Section 40 of the Revenue Code In the past tax year Due to work duties or business conducted abroad or because of assets located abroad according to Section 41, paragraph two, of the Revenue Code The Revenue Department has ordered the following:

1. Clause 1: Persons who are residing in Thailand according to Section 41, paragraph three, of the Revenue Code. who have assessable income due to work duties or activities conducted abroad or because of property located in a foreign country according to Section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code In the said tax year and brought the assessable income Entering Thailand in any tax year That person has a duty to include that assessable income in the calculation. To pay income tax according to Section 48 of the Revenue Code In the tax year in which the assessable income was brought into Thailand
2. Article 2: All rules, regulations, orders, letters responding to consultations. or any practice that is contrary to or inconsistent with This order shall be cancelled
3. Article 3 This Order shall come into effect for assessable income imported into Thailand from 1 January 2024 onwards.

Ordered on 22 September 2023
(Mr. Lawan Saengsanit) Director-General of the Revenue Department

 

Edit: Playing Devils Advocate you could argue that Article 2 could include the cancellation of DTAs, I don't know about other countries but Thailand simply has to give the UK 6 months notice if it wanted to cancel the TH&UK DTA.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[tomkenet]

12 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Whilst the original article posted in the Thaiger (and other places) stated people from countries that have a DTA with Thailand will be exempt, the original statement from the Revenue Department quoted in the article makes no mention of this. 

 

Revenue Department orders No. P.162/2023
Subject: Payment of income tax under Section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code.

For the revenue officers to consider as a practice guideline for inspecting and giving advice to those residing in Thailand. which has assessable income according to Section 40 of the Revenue Code In the past tax year Due to work duties or business conducted abroad or because of assets located abroad according to Section 41, paragraph two, of the Revenue Code The Revenue Department has ordered the following:

1. Clause 1: Persons who are residing in Thailand according to Section 41, paragraph three, of the Revenue Code. who have assessable income due to work duties or activities conducted abroad or because of property located in a foreign country according to Section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code In the said tax year and brought the assessable income Entering Thailand in any tax year That person has a duty to include that assessable income in the calculation. To pay income tax according to Section 48 of the Revenue Code In the tax year in which the assessable income was brought into Thailand
2. Article 2: All rules, regulations, orders, letters responding to consultations. or any practice that is contrary to or inconsistent with This order shall be cancelled
3. Article 3 This Order shall come into effect for assessable income imported into Thailand from 1 January 2024 onwards.

Ordered on 22 September 2023
(Mr. Lawan Saengsanit) Director-General of the Revenue Department

 

 

 

I thought  departmental Instruction No. Paw.162 ("DI Paw. 162" ) was issued 

20 November 2023.

[The Cyclist]

24 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Clause 1: Persons who are residing in Thailand according to Section 41, paragraph three, of the Revenue Code. who have assessable income due to work duties or activities conducted abroad or because of property located in a foreign country according to Section 41, paragraph two of the Revenue Code In the said tax year and brought the assessable income

 

We could play Devils Advocate all day.

 

* Work duties

 

* Activities conducted abroad

 

* Property.

 

We could have 50 pages of fun with the above and that will get us to 200 pages before Christmas 

 

Then we could get on to the real fun and batter out another 100 pages on what is assessable income.

 

Cancellation of DTA's could happen. Although I think that is unlikely due to CRS / OECD. Thailand would want to be seen to be playing by the rules.

 

That would be something that would trigger a response from my GAF meter and cause a rethink.

 

Try P. 161 / 2023 of 15 September

Edited December 5, 2023 by The Cyclist
Typo

[The Cyclist]

Some of you may want to read this

 

https://www.rsm.global/thailand/insights/new-change-and-effects-thailand-personal-income-tax

 

Quote

Generally, if you have paid income tax in another country that has signed a DTA with Thailand before bringing such income into Thailand in the same tax year that the income has been recognized, the tax paid in the other country can be used as a credit against Thai tax, subject to conditions set in each DTA.

 

Now the bad news for those that have posted asking questions about doing weird things with savings and income.

 

Quote

It is noted that this credit relief may not be applied if you bring the income into Thailand in a different tax year from the year that the income has been recognized, in other words, you may have to pay tax in both countries. 

 

[tomkenet]

7 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Some of you may want to read this

 

https://www.rsm.global/thailand/insights/new-change-and-effects-thailand-personal-income-tax

 

 

Now the bad news for those that have posted asking questions about doing weird things with savings and income.

 

 

This article is from before Por.162/2566

 

would be much more interesting with an update after.

[Mike Teavee]

41 minutes ago, tomkenet said:

I thought  departmental Instruction No. Paw.162 ("DI Paw. 162" ) was issued 

20 November 2023.

It was a Google Translate of the article in the Opening post of this thread.

 

Just checked on Apple Translate & that shows it as 16/2556

Edited December 5, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, tomkenet said:

This article is from before Por.162/2566

 

would be much more interesting with an update after.

 

Yes that is correct it was published in relation to P 161 / 2566 dated 15 September.

 

If you come across any interesting updates, please feel free to post them and give a brief description as to what you find interesting.

[bugger bognor]

There will be no announcements or clarification on this subject anytime soon ! Anyone one willing to bet nothing will change or happen in the next year or even five years, or even ever , no one I've talked too will take a bet with me because they know it's delusional hype whipped up mainly by those kind of expats who constantly moan about visas and red tape frankly the type I wish would go back to there home countries USA citizens especially!  will any of us be paying tax in Thailand next year? NO not next year or ever unenforceable if you believe otherwise your a C,,,,,,NT

[Mike Lister]

31 minutes ago, bugger bognor said:

There will be no announcements or clarification on this subject anytime soon ! Anyone one willing to bet nothing will change or happen in the next year or even five years, or even ever , no one I've talked too will take a bet with me because they know it's delusional hype whipped up mainly by those kind of expats who constantly moan about visas and red tape frankly the type I wish would go back to there home countries USA citizens especially!  will any of us be paying tax in Thailand next year? NO not next year or ever unenforceable if you believe otherwise your a C,,,,,,NT

Appalling  English, and the punctuation, goodness!

[TravelerEastWest]

15 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You haven't answered my questions, too difficult?

Not sure what questions you mean but I know very little about Thai laws in general as I cant read Thai...

[TravelerEastWest]

10 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm just coming back to this for a moment for a couple of reasons.

 

There is a short exchange a little way further back between Lorry, Misty and myself, in it you'll see that there is the start of agreement that there is a difference, despite the law being the same for both, I suggest you read it. What your work was in your previous life, in a different country, doesn't count for anything here, I further suggest you also answer the four questions that I have put forward to see if you fare differently.

 

Well actually, I am trained in tax law, and from your posts I would say you are not - if I am wrong please correct me and you have my apologies!

 

American tax law is far more complicated than Thai tax law and does have some differences but also similarities. For example, tax deductions for depreciation is very similar. the key similarity is always finding the issue which can be challenging but once you have the issue you can research and form a conclusion.

 

The way you say my experience and views "doesnt count for anything here" you have gone from opinionated which is good and welcome - to rude and I will no longer respond to you. Good luck with your tax returns done with Thai RD help...

 

The funny thing is that I agree with you (my thoughts are not of much value) but for a different reason - I can't speak, read and write Thai so it is not possible to have an informed opinion based on my research and if you think otherwise you may end up making some errors... Then again you might not - I wish you the best of tax luck!

Edited December 5, 2023 by TravelerEastWest

[Mike Lister]

This thread may have been helpful at one point, if only to raise awareness and provide links. But as time has dragged on, this and other threads like it have degraded into waffle, navel gazing and what if's with some posters attempting to occupy the intellectual high ground and others becoming overnight experts! So if people are going to start ignoring each others posts, this can only be a good thing so the thread can die in peace. 

 

I have attempted to distill matters into a simple and practical test, in the form of four questions, which most people wish to not answer and also wish to avoid entirely..... that in itself is very telling. Nevertheless, time will tell as more aspects become clear and posters angst settles down, in a few months most people will wonder what all the fuss was about, some reached that point months earlier!

 

RiP thread.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

5 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

It has been posted across multiple threads including this one.

Have fun finding it.

Although with the doom and gloom that is currently covering you like a massive black cloud, I doubt you could find your undercrackers in the dark.

Have you packed up yet and organised a shipping Company ?

Now that is funny.

Liar liar pants on fire - that was an old school saying many years ago - no idea why I thought of that.

Just thought of another - but it is on the tip of my tongue - something about a kid called Georgie Porgie.

Not sure why, but arguing/debating with you reminds of my school days.

Thanks for the memories.

[quake]

Ah, Synchronized rag week.

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

5 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Which means it's a dead duck, cabinet has to approve it, and until cabinet approves it, it's just another dead duck, lots of dead ducks in Thailand.

Just get on enjoying your time here, tax free, until you see a duck cross your path, simple really.

Could be mate - here's hoping - but IMO it would be wise to plan as well (just in case). 

I am reminded of this quote from Ernst & Young about the Pillar 2 minimum tax change announced by the Thai Govt in March 2023, with plan being to draft the Legislation in 2023 and implement the change in 2025.

Even though the legislation is not yet enacted, in-scope MNEs should begin assessing its potential impacts from the implementation of global minimum tax rules and be ready for the anticipated law changes.   Thailand plans to implement global minimum tax rules under OECD BEPS 2.0 Pillar Two | EY - Global

 

If as you say this income tax change of methodology does require Cabinet approval, I hope like us all that they do not approve it.  If they do, I hope that they will wait a few years before applying tha change (like the above new tax change) - and I hope they direct Thai RD to provide detailed clarifications.