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Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I


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Posted
5 minutes ago, UKresonant said:

Suggestion, add "of the following year" to the tail of "8"

 

 

The proof the savings principle has previously been taxed may also become relevant / useful going forward?

 

(I'm thinking of, for example I [whilst non-resident] save £1000 from taxed income in 2024 and put it in an isolated savings account, any interest is either not credited or immediately transferred out and I remit the principle to Thailand in 2030 [whilst resident]. Obviously would remit savings when non-resident if the opportunity & anticipation was prevailing.)

 

It's already attached to the tail of 15 where the subject is discussed in more detail.

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Posted
2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I think that is an opinion rather than fact. Unless the Thai RD is made aware of the nature of the income, it does not know whether it is assessible or not.

 

What I said:

 

Quote

Thai RD is NOT interested in non assessable income (again, income exempted by treaty, like gov't pensions for most OECD countries -- or, again, any income not remitted). Thus, if you have enough assessable income requiring you to file a Thai tax return, you would NOT include line items of non assessable income.

 

Does your statement mean that RD should be shown all your income in order for them to determine its assessability (taxability would be a better term)? I think you do, due to an earlier post by you (which I'll try and locate), where you state that you and the RD clerk go over all your income to determine what should be filed, and what shouldn't. I maintain that that is a step not needed, as most of us can determine whether our foreign income is subject to Thai taxation, or not. But, I guess you don't agree, which, of course, is your right.

Posted
18 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

What I said:

 

 

Does your statement mean that RD should be shown all your income in order for them to determine its assessability (taxability would be a better term)? I think you do, due to an earlier post by you (which I'll try and locate), where you state that you and the RD clerk go over all your income to determine what should be filed, and what shouldn't. I maintain that that is a step not needed, as most of us can determine whether our foreign income is subject to Thai taxation, or not. But, I guess you don't agree, which, of course, is your right.

What I wrote was that I declared everything, assessible and not assessible, I left it up to the RD to decide what they wanted to enter into their (Thai) online system although, my bottom line agreed with their number, as I also said.

 

What my statement means is that you have no proof of what you wrote, "Thai RD is NOT interested in non assessable income (again, income exempted by treaty). Until you do, what I wrote remains true, "I think that is an opinion rather than fact".

 

Posted
3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

What I wrote was that I declared everything, assessible and not assessible, I left it up to the RD to decide what they wanted to enter into their (Thai) online system although, my bottom line agreed with their number, as I also said.

 

What my statement means is that you have no proof of what you wrote, "Thai RD is NOT interested in non assessable income (again, income exempted by treaty). Until you do, what I wrote remains true, "I think that is an opinion rather than fact".

 

Ok, you win. If I have to file a Thai tax return, I'll include all my Air Force pensions, Social Security, and other income exempted by treaty. Now, where on the form should I put this? And after I do, where on the form would I back it out, since it's not taxable income -- which the RD would know, and wonder what kind of jerk would include it in the first place....

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Posted
2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

Ok, you win. If I have to file a Thai tax return, I'll include all my Air Force pensions, Social Security, and other income exempted by treaty. Now, where on the form should I put this? And after I do, where on the form would I back it out, since it's not taxable income -- which the RD would know, and wonder what kind of jerk would include it in the first place....

Jim, I really don't care what you do or how you do it, for the 'nth time, this thread is not about just you! 

 

If you want to be argumentative, go find somebody else to fight with or put me on your ignore list, I really don't care but I have had enough of your abusive tone. If you can't be civil and debate reasonably, don't even try. 

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Posted
On 12/20/2023 at 1:29 PM, jerrymahoney said:

To the above: I have used the 65K per month retirement extension method since the game change 4 years ago -- in 2 different offices.

 

They both want to see a statement from my Thai bank with monthly FTT deposits. No US (in my case) statement required.

 

And they both have requested (demanded?) a Source-of-funds letter which I have provided showing a monthly transfer -- which in my case -- meets the definition of" monthly income retirement pension" AND 'annuity' under Article 20 Par. 3 US-Thailand DTA.

 

65kdocsCROP.png.8101461e01dd59165461269e14c3b259.png

Thanks for sharing. I'm curious to know why my IO link still shows clause 5....the one which refers to the option to combine income and cert. of balance on term deposit for the appropriate period.

Posted
3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Jim, I really don't care what you do or how you do it, for the 'nth time, this thread is not about just you! 

 

If you want to be argumentative, go find somebody else to fight with or put me on your ignore list, I really don't care but I have had enough of your abusive tone. If you can't be civil and debate reasonably, don't even try. 

 

Actually he has a perfectly reasonable point.If it is quite clear that if certain income stream/s (probably best ask competent Thai tax adviser to confirm in case of doubt) are not subject to Thai tax, then I see no point in including them in Thai tax return.This complies with Thai requirements and avoids the boring task of sitting down with RD to decide what is taxable and what is not.

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Posted
Just now, jayboy said:

 

Actually he has a perfectly reasonable point.If it is quite clear that if certain income stream/s (probably best ask competent Thai tax adviser to confirm in case of doubt) are not subject to Thai tax, then I see no point in including them in Thai tax return.This complies with Thai requirements and avoids the boring task of sitting down with RD to decide what is taxable and what is not.

In which case, somebody needs to post a link that confirms that and if they do, I will view it as fact also. But until then, it's only opinion.

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Posted
6 minutes ago, ChrisParis75 said:

 

This idea ("DTA = shield") is just false... in somes cases.

 

A DTA aims to prevent to tax 2 TIMES the same income of the same amount.

 

But it doesn't mean that one of the DTA's party... could not TAX MORE !

 

I gave this example (my situation), because it's very straightforward.

 

-french national living in Thailand, full time

-for the french tax department i am a "non resident"

-for the thai tax department i am a "resident" (more than 180 days)

 

-i earn dividends in France paid by a french company

-i pay to the french tax department a flat income tax of 12,8 % (a french resident would pay.. 33 % instead because of very high "social security" taxes added to the income tax).

 

-the Thailand/France DTA is very clear : the thai tax department will give me a TAX CREDIT of the amount paid in France (12,8 %)... but then could very well ask me to pay 35 % (their highest bracket) minus 12,8 = 22,2 % of thai income tax ! (but only if I send this money in Thailand, of course).

 

Before the new rule... when sending the money to Thailand, I could very well "disguise" my dividend income into... "savings" (AKA income earned year -1). Case closed, no tax to pay in Thailand.

 

With the new rule... the risk is obvious.

 

I don't say that Thailand will do it... I just say that it would perfectly logical (and legal).

 

Few understand that this little calendar rule (year -1) made Thailand... a real "tax paradise" (for us earning money abroad !).

 

And when I say "us" i mean foreigners... and rich thai citizens as well !!!

Nobody seems able to read properly!

 

I never suggested the DTA is a shield of any type.

 

What I wrote is:

 

"It has been said that tax residents who import funds from countries that have a DTA with Thailand, will not be effected. Exactly how that will work leaves many questions unanswered hence this document attempts to look at only the most popular types of income based on what is known at present". 

 

Posted

My increasing ignorance regarding this subject is frightening. THANK YOU TO EVERYONE (especially MIKE LISTER) for trying to educate me and others like me.

I have to renew my retirement visa (Non Imm O with Thai wife) in March. A couple of qustions:

1) Do I have to take a completed PIT form with me to immigration when I renew my visa?

2) My income is derived from pensions -

State Pension (formerly the Old Age Pension) = £456.12 per month

NHS work pension = £1918.89 per month

I also get a pension of £9.50 per month

They are all taxed at source and paid into my UK bank account and I transfer circa 100,000 baht per month into my Thai bank account. Does anyone have any idea what my Thai tax liability might be or should I find the local RD office and leave it to them?

Thank you.

Joe

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Posted
40 minutes ago, ChrisParis75 said:

Thailand... a real "tax paradise" (for us earning money abroad !).

And still is. Remittance of savings taxfree, earning money abroad taxfree if kept abroad or spent abroad.

Posted (edited)

As has been noted the USofA, other countries, and Thailand run their tax ops on the self-reporting "Honor System". This has been my experience with expat Americans in Thailand and the honor system:

 

For 10+ years I went to get an affidavit of income for Thailand retirement extension either at the US Embassy -- Bangkok or on a Counselor outreach.

 

People Kingdom-wide would say: I know lots of Americans on retirement extension and NOT ONE of them actually has the 65K monthly income. The common word was: So what was going to happen?

 

The US Embassy could do nothing because all that was really being sworn to is that This is Jerry Mahoney and this is what he says under penalty of perjury. Nothing about whether the Embassy thinks the statement was in fact true.

 

So what if I say (to myself) All my income is in the not assessable / exempt category because it was an inheritance from my Aunt Dolores. Barring an audit, how would RD ever know that you never had an Aunt Dolores dead or living.

 

Knowingly making a materially false statement to a US Federal officer in his/her official capacity -- as was routinely done for years often physically right in the US Embassy -- can be a felony charge.

 

And people just laughed it off. 

 

So as per the Thai tax system and the expat community I would say: If people think that there is no downside and that they get away with it, at least for now, they will.

 

 

Edited by jerrymahoney
Posted
5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Others mileage may vary but I don't want to live my retirement years in a foreign country, looking over my shoulder and/or waiting for the hammer to fall.

I agree. And my income is already reported per monthly to Immigration. But my faith in these type matters regarding the expat population in Thailand as a whole is way down when a  common attitude is "Catch me if you can."

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Shoeless Joe said:

My increasing ignorance regarding this subject is frightening. THANK YOU TO EVERYONE (especially MIKE LISTER) for trying to educate me and others like me.

I have to renew my retirement visa (Non Imm O with Thai wife) in March. A couple of qustions:

1) Do I have to take a completed PIT form with me to immigration when I renew my visa?

2) My income is derived from pensions -

State Pension (formerly the Old Age Pension) = £456.12 per month

NHS work pension = £1918.89 per month

I also get a pension of £9.50 per month

They are all taxed at source and paid into my UK bank account and I transfer circa 100,000 baht per month into my Thai bank account. Does anyone have any idea what my Thai tax liability might be or should I find the local RD office and leave it to them?

Thank you.

Joe

 

 

1.  No, Immigration does not require this documentation for an annual non-O extension.

 

(I am not a tax professional and this should not be construed as tax advice.)

 

 

Edited by TheAppletons
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Posted
5 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

But my faith in these type matters regarding the expat population in Thailand as a whole is way down when a  common attitude is "Catch me if you can."

 

The "Catch me if you can" attitude reflects the whole Thai population way of being/mindset.

 

Most of foreign residents just adapt ; the others, who cognitively can't, suffer all along their journey desperately struggling to shove a square peg into the round hole.

 

Posted
13 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

 

The "Catch me if you can" attitude reflects the whole Thai population way of being/mindset.

 

Most of foreign residents just adapt ; the others, who cognitively can't, suffer all along their journey desperately struggling to shove a square peg into the round hole.

 

Whether I agree with you or not, this whole tax scheme as it involves expats, as opposed to Thai citizens, will only be successful if there is some downside recourse to not complying truthfully and completely.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Shoeless Joe said:

My increasing ignorance regarding this subject is frightening. THANK YOU TO EVERYONE (especially MIKE LISTER) for trying to educate me and others like me.

I have to renew my retirement visa (Non Imm O with Thai wife) in March. A couple of qustions:

1) Do I have to take a completed PIT form with me to immigration when I renew my visa?

2) My income is derived from pensions -

State Pension (formerly the Old Age Pension) = £456.12 per month

NHS work pension = £1918.89 per month

I also get a pension of £9.50 per month

They are all taxed at source and paid into my UK bank account and I transfer circa 100,000 baht per month into my Thai bank account. Does anyone have any idea what my Thai tax liability might be or should I find the local RD office and leave it to them?

Thank you.

Joe

 

From my own (amateur) current understanding of the UK/Thai DTA:-

NHS pension is a 'Government Pension' and is assessable but not taxable by Thailand RD.

State Pension and 'other pension' are both assessable and taxable.

 

You can therefore remit all of your NHS pension free of Thai income tax.

The other two amount to about £466 pm = 20,255 ฿ pm = 243,000 ฿ pa based on 43.50 ฿/£.

You can claim allowances/deductions of (60+190+100) k฿ pa plus 150 k฿ zero-rated for total allowances/deductions of 500 k฿. Details of these appear all over these threads so you've probably seen them.

Your assessable and taxable pensions are below 500 k฿ in total so your Thai income tax liability is ZERO. 

There are additional allowances/deductions for non-working spouse, health insurance, children and others but, since your tax liability is ZERO, these shouldn't concern you.

Edited by MartinL
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Posted
16 minutes ago, MartinL said:

 

From my own (amateur) current understanding of the UK/Thai DTA:-

NHS pension is a 'Government Pension' and is assessable but not taxable by Thailand RD.

State Pension and 'other pension' are both assessable and taxable.

 

You can therefore remit all of your NHS pension free of Thai income tax.

The other two amount to about £466 pm = 20,255 ฿ pm = 243,000 ฿ pa based on 43.50 ฿/£.

You can claim allowances/deductions of (60+190+100) k฿ pa plus 150 k฿ zero-rated for total allowances/deductions of 500 k฿. Details of these appear all over these threads so you've probably seen them.

Your assessable and taxable pensions are below 500 k฿ in total so your Thai income tax liability is ZERO. 

There are additional allowances/deductions for non-working spouse, health insurance, children and others but, since your tax liability is ZERO, these shouldn't concern you.

Thank you for your reply which is very helpful and much appreciated.

Joe

Posted
1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Others mileage may vary but I don't want to live my retirement years in a foreign country, looking over my shoulder and/or waiting for the hammer to fall.

 

I don't think it's that binary and I don't think there's any hammer waiting to fall on small time farang pensioners.

 

Roughly speaking there are 3 categories of expat retirees' attitude to filing returns.

 

1.Those who are (or who like to think they are) in advance of the crowd and have been filing tax returns for sometime - albeit sometimes quite unnecessarily given the circumstances.They are often relatively new to Thailand and don't fully understand its nuances (eg tax clearance on departure which is still on the books, just not implemented, the many examples of eager beaver farang wanting TINs who have been turned away by RD etc etc)

 

2.Those who are carefully monitoring the position but expect to submit a return for the 2024 tax year and thereafter.Chief concerns are to comply with Thai requirements and legally minimize tax paid

 

3.Those who will bury their heads in the sand.

Posted
4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

In which case, somebody needs to post a link that confirms that and if they do, I will view it as fact also. But until then, it's only opinion.

 

Or we could wait until the Thai Gov / RD spell out the details.

 

Which would save you time and effort typing out draft copies, which might well be shot down in flames when the the Thai Gov /RD get round to publishing something concrete.

 

Because until then, everything, including your bandwidth sapping draft  copies ( why would you even do such a thing ) is nothing but opinion.

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Posted
5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Or we could wait until the Thai Gov / RD spell out the details.

Wait for what, if I understand this correctly these policies are affective Jan 1 2024  , it is now Jan 7th 2024 

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Posted
1 hour ago, Shoeless Joe said:

Thank you for your reply which is very helpful and much appreciated.

Joe

Info

NHS pension is only a Government pension, if it's paid via a local authority. ( I put a link in a reply a couple of pages ago, of the HMRC list) but that detail is buried quite deep.

 

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Posted
1 minute ago, sirineou said:

Wait for what, if I understand this correctly these policies are affective Jan 1 2024  , it is now Jan 7th 2024 

Which policies are you speaking of? The ones that were in place before, but ignored for many years until now? Which ones in particular?

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