Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

From the same video (approx. 41:30 mark) it seems that if you're bringing property rental income across you need to file twice per year... 

 

This is the 1st I've heard of this or the PND 94 form mentioned...  

 

 

Edit: around about the 45:50 mark he makes it clear that Capital Gains are calculated from the date you got the asset, not from the date you moved to Thailand, E.g. Shares I acquired 35 years ago would have no CGT due in the UK but as far as Thailand is concerned, the gain is the difference in value since then & not since 4 years ago when I became Thai Tax resident. 

 

I am now quite sceptical about this rental income issue and the need to file a PND 94 twice a year, I just don't think that's correct.

 

If a UK citizen has rental income they must file an interim return (subject to thresholds) and in effect file a UK return twice a year. According to the video, it is now necessary to file a Thai tax return on that same income, twice a year also. That's four tax returns in one year on the same rental income, which doesn't pass the sniff test. That means the Thai RD wants a return filed on that income and tax paid, even before the annual accounting is done in the home country, there's no way that can be correct........sorry, I don't believe it.

[UKresonant]

32 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I thought it had been said that the only thing that's important from a Thai tax perspective is tax residency at the time the funds were remitted? I know this issue has flip flopped a few times, have I perhaps missed a flip or a flop?

That could well be the case, non-resident at point of remittance. But I am stuck at my primary planning rule that anything income or derived (2024 onwards) whilst Thai tax resident is potentially tagged as Thai assessable, whenever it is remitted.

Unless DTA and perhaps home tax authority priority etc. or expended outwith being remitted in some other way.....

 

Since I'm not 100% in Thailand, I would tend to think having the CG whilst not resident  and creating Savings Pots with paper trail would be more certain. (Provided practical considerations allowed)

[Mike Teavee]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

I am now quite sceptical about this rental income issue and the need to file a PND 94 twice a year, I just don't think that's correct.

 

If a UK citizen has rental income they must file an interim return (subject to thresholds) and in effect file a UK return twice a year. According to the video, it is now necessary to file a Thai tax return on that same income, twice a year also. That's four tax returns in one year on the same rental income, which doesn't pass the sniff test. That means the Thai RD wants a return filed on that income and tax paid, even before the annual accounting is done in the home country, there's no way that can be correct........sorry, I don't believe it.

Per the link you kindly provided it seems similar to the UK and depends on the level of income received (well remitted) 

https://mbmg-group.com/article/what-is-a-half-year-personal-income-tax-return-pnd.-94-and-who-has-to-file-it

 

What is a Half-Year Personal Income Tax Return (PND. 94)?
Who has to file it?

A half-year personal income tax return or PND. 94 is the income tax filing of an individual whose income from January to June exceeds 60,000 baht.

 

This tax filing is for those who receive the following types of income.

1. Income from rent of property such as land, houses, vehicles, etc.

2. Income from liberal professions, which are not freelances and have licenses, such as doctor, nurse, accountant, lawyer, etc.

3. Income from an independent contract such as contractors.

4. Other income which is classified as 8 types of assessable income such as income from online sales, acting, income by virtue of jobs, positions or services rendered, etc

 

So if I receive £1,000 net rental income & transferred £500 each month (approx. 23K THB) I would have "Earned" 138K (6 x 23K) between Jan and June so would need to file a 1/2 year return.... but if I brought it all over in July I would just have to include it in my annual return. 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Mike Teavee said:

Per the link you kindly provided it seems similar to the UK and depends on the level of income received (well remitted) 

https://mbmg-group.com/article/what-is-a-half-year-personal-income-tax-return-pnd.-94-and-who-has-to-file-it

 

What is a Half-Year Personal Income Tax Return (PND. 94)?
Who has to file it?

A half-year personal income tax return or PND. 94 is the income tax filing of an individual whose income from January to June exceeds 60,000 baht.

 

This tax filing is for those who receive the following types of income.

1. Income from rent of property such as land, houses, vehicles, etc.

2. Income from liberal professions, which are not freelances and have licenses, such as doctor, nurse, accountant, lawyer, etc.

3. Income from an independent contract such as contractors.

4. Other income which is classified as 8 types of assessable income such as income from online sales, acting, income by virtue of jobs, positions or services rendered, etc

 

So if I receive £1,000 net rental income & transferred £500 each month (approx. 23K THB) I would have "Earned" 138K (6 x 23K) between Jan and June so would need to file a 1/2 year return.... but if I brought it all over in July I would just have to include it in my annual return. 

 

That will just be an absolute nightmare for anyone who is transferring rental income monthly and living off it ,instead of pensions for example. The UK and Thai tax years don't align so Thai tax would have to be paid by 31 March, potentially before the UK return was filed. That would likely result in carry forward which may not be allowed for tax credits in previous years etc.

[Mike Teavee]

12 minutes ago, UKresonant said:

That could well be the case, non-resident at point of remittance. But I am stuck at my primary planning rule that anything income or derived (2024 onwards) whilst Thai tax resident is potentially tagged as Thai assessable, whenever it is remitted.

Unless DTA and perhaps home tax authority priority etc. or expended outwith being remitted in some other way.....

I personally believe it's Residency at the time the funds are remitted on the basis that (assuming no Thai Income) you don't have to file a tax return for years you are not Tax resident, but with a significant transfer (e.g. Tax free lump sum from pension and/or proceeds from the sale of a house) I  figure you are much more likely to be flagged for a follow-up so will be non-tax resident at the time I get the monies & remitting them in the same year. 

 

[Mike Lister]

I've updated the guide as follows:

 

58) Rental income from overseas property owned by foreigners who are tax resident in Thailand is not liable to Thai tax on that income, as long as that income is not remitted to Thailand. If however that rental income is remitted, an interim tax return PND 94, must be filed if the total remitted within the first six months of the year, exceeds 60,000 baht. “A half-year personal income tax return or PND. 94 is the income tax filing of an individual whose income from January to June exceeds 60,000 baht”.

[topt]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

If a UK citizen has rental income they must file an interim return (subject to thresholds) and in effect file a UK return twice a year.

Sorry Mike I am confused by your statement. Are you saying that was mentioned in the video (I didn't hear it or missed it if so) or are you meaning because of the Thai requirement one would have to?

 

On an associated point under MTD from 2026 (at the moment) over 50k and then from 2027 over 30k UK rental income you will have to file quarterly in the UK......

[JimGant]

7 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Many people filed under the old rules, I'm one.

Did you actually have taxable income, i.e, assessable income above TEDA -- and thus actually paid income tax to Thailand? Just curious, because you've previously reported that you showed up at the TRD office, declared all your remitted income, and then asked them to discern which was assessable, and which wasn't. Wouldn't the prudent man keep TRD out of the self-assessment phase -- and just keep his self-assessment logic to himself, until the less than 1% chance of a knock on the door?

 

Obviously, Thai RD never evaluated farang remittances for income applicability, under the old rules, since the fungibility of cash flow could certainly blur same-year remittances -- and what a waste of time and money to try and corner this blur. And, now, farangs can claim pre 2024 income as tax free remittances -- plus several DTA rulings exempting foreign income. No, the cost/benefit analysis says Thai RD is not going to hire 10000 new agents to question tens of thousands of farang non tax payers -- only to find out that there's no there there.  Any new taxes under this new ruling will come from Thai fat cats, who under the old rule, could remit unlimited amounts under the later year rule. Now, Thai fat cats, who have no DTA exemptions to hide behind, will feel the sting. We've already seen, on one of these threads, where Thai RD can assess taxes, of their determination, in situations where 'too much remittance and not enough tax paid' occurs. This is where the new rule will probably bear fruit. Farangs aren't even an after thought, IMO.

[Mike Lister]

47 minutes ago, topt said:

Sorry Mike I am confused by your statement. Are you saying that was mentioned in the video (I didn't hear it or missed it if so) or are you meaning because of the Thai requirement one would have to?

 

On an associated point under MTD from 2026 (at the moment) over 50k and then from 2027 over 30k UK rental income you will have to file quarterly in the UK......

 

48 minutes ago, topt said:

Sorry Mike I am confused by your statement. Are you saying that was mentioned in the video (I didn't hear it or missed it if so) or are you meaning because of the Thai requirement one would have to?

 

On an associated point under MTD from 2026 (at the moment) over 50k and then from 2027 over 30k UK rental income you will have to file quarterly in the UK......

From the video further up the page:

 

"From the same video (approx. 41:30 mark) it seems that if you're bringing property rental income across you need to file twice per year... " per member Mike Teavee.

 

Thai tax residents are required to file an interim tax return, if more than 60k Baht in rental income is remitted during the first 6 months of the tax year.

 

 

[Rampant Rabbit]

On 5/3/2024 at 8:00 AM, Mike Lister said:

An excellent idea! Help us formulate the questions that should be asked and we'll run a poll. Here's a starter for ten!

 

Question: In light of the new tax rules that became effective 1 January 2024, what are you actively and seriously planning and intend to do in response?

 

- the planned rule change will be cancelled so I don't need to do anything.

- I'm not planning to do anything differently

- I will wait until next year to see what happens, before deciding

- I will not remain in Thailand for more than 179 days per tax year

- I am definitely leaving Thailand and will live somewhere else

- I will remit less money to Thailand, in order to avoid tax

- I will obtain a TIN but nothing more

- I will file a tax return

- I'm happy to pay my fair share and to pay tax in Thailand rather than mu home country

 

Anything else?

 

Poll now posted.

 

 

 

wheres the poll then and i think it should be hidden from the Thai Tax  dept!!

[Mike Lister]

13 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Did you actually have taxable income, i.e, assessable income above TEDA -- and thus actually paid income tax to Thailand? Just curious, because you've previously reported that you showed up at the TRD office, declared all your remitted income, and then asked them to discern which was assessable, and which wasn't. Wouldn't the prudent man keep TRD out of the self-assessment phase -- and just keep his self-assessment logic to himself, until the less than 1% chance of a knock on the door?

 

 

How many times have you and I been through this now, five, six times at least since I first mentioned it and you repeatedly ridiculed me for filing a tax return when there was no need and there was no penalty, both points now proven to the contrary. Yes I have previously filed tax returns, yes I have previously paid Thai tax that was due, but because I am usually able to control my income flows and my liability to Thai tax, some years I have not had to pay but I have still filed. Now, can we please stop talking about me and my tax returns.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[topt]

10 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

 

From the video further up the page:

 

"From the same video (approx. 41:30 mark) it seems that if you're bringing property rental income across you need to file twice per year... " per member Mike Teavee.

 

Thai tax residents are required to file an interim tax return, if more than 60k Baht in rental income is remitted during the first 6 months of the tax year.

 

 

Ok I read your statement as that one would have to file twice per year in the UK - sorry.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, topt said:

Ok I read your statement that one would have to file twice per year in the UK - sorry.

You do! As long as you exceed the UK threshold for twice yearly reporting of rental income, that law takes effect this year I understand.

[topt]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

You do! As long as you exceed the UK threshold for twice yearly reporting of rental income, that law takes effect this year I understand.

Yes well as someone who has rental income I try to stay on top of the changing requirements but had not heard of this so I tried searching and still could not find anything.

As mentioned in my reply the Making Tax Digital changes come in but although originally slated for this year have been delayed to 2026 with the limits mentioned.

 

I would be interested to see a reference to anything different - and lots of sites still contain the superseded start date.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, topt said:

Yes well as someone who has rental income I try to stay on top of the changing requirements but had not heard of this so I tried searching and still could not find anything.

As mentioned in my reply the Making Tax Digital changes come in but although originally slated for this year have been delayed to 2026 with the limits mentioned.

 

I would be interested to see a reference to anything different - and lots of sites still contain the superseded start date.

It quite possibly may have been delayed although I have not heard that. The last I heard was a few weeks ago and was not told anything had changed. I spoke with my UK accountant last week as part of my UK tax filing and double checked with her that I didn't have to file and she confirmed it was so. If the new law had been deferred, I would have expected her to tell me, but she didn't.

[topt]

21 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

It quite possibly may have been delayed although I have not heard that. The last I heard was a few weeks ago and was not told anything had changed. I spoke with my UK accountant last week as part of my UK tax filing and double checked with her that I didn't have to file and she confirmed it was so. If the new law had been deferred, I would have expected her to tell me, but she didn't.

perhaps as delayed for 2 years she saw no point.......

It is actually quarterly as well not 6 monthly -

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-announces-phased-mandation-of-making-tax-digital-for-itsa

[Rimmer]

A baiting post has been removed

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Farangs aren't even an after thought, IMO.

That would be nice.

But it has been all over tiktok (and other, less important media) that "now farang must pay taxes, like Thais do"

Thais who until yesterday couldn't spell "tax" (and who never in their life have paid taxes)  have talked to me about it.

So, Somchai the tax inspector has certainly heard about it. What he is going to do about it is anyone's guess.

 

BTW the tax office in Buriram, which is not exactly the center of the universe, does have someone who knows English, is well informed about the new rules and even knows what a DTA is and how to apply it.

[topt]

30 minutes ago, Lorry said:

is well informed about the new rules and even knows what a DTA is and how to apply it.

Would you like to share more information about how you know this and how they are going to apply it - it may help to move the discussion forwards....... ?

[Lorry]

41 minutes ago, topt said:

Would you like to share more information about how you know this and how they are going to apply it - it may help to move the discussion forwards....... ?

I know a foreigner who went there and asked.

They said they will use the tax credit method.

 

BTW i hear Thais saying "now foreigners must pay tax" quite often. 

Nobody ever said "now rich people must pay tax".

I never believed that the new rules aim at rich Thais.  Thaksin is one of them,  and Srettha too.

[Lorry]

Can I receive a gift from relatives (spouse, parents,  kids) living abroad when I am abroad visiting them, and transfer the money to Thailand tax-free (or just bring the cash, it won't be more than 10,000 USD)?

 

I know nobody knows the answer,  but at least I see nothing in the RC saying gifts must be made in Thailand.  Or did I miss something?

[Klonko]

1 hour ago, Lorry said:

Can I receive a gift from relatives (spouse, parents,  kids) living abroad when I am abroad visiting them, and transfer the money to Thailand tax-free (or just bring the cash, it won't be more than 10,000 USD)?

 

I know nobody knows the answer,  but at least I see nothing in the RC saying gifts must be made in Thailand.  Or did I miss something?

There are a some people who think that the gift tax rules may only apply to gifts from funds which have been subject to Thai income tax assessment. TRD has publicly stated that, while foreign income of a Thai tax resident remitted to himself is tax assessable, traditional gifts [remitted from the benefactor's foreign account to the beneficiary's Thai account] are not subject to income tax. To date, I have not seen any official statement to the contrary. In my case, I now support my wife directly from my foreign account, after having used my Thai account until 2023.

 

"Traditional gift" usually derives from a moral obligation.

[Lorry]

 

a friend will bring money into Thailand that he inherited in his home country. He can easily prove the money has been inherited. It should be tax-free, right?

(Thinking about it, I could do the same,  but I might have comingled the funds already,  I will have to check)

[Klonko]

1 hour ago, Lorry said:

 

a friend will bring money into Thailand that he inherited in his home country. He can easily prove the money has been inherited. It should be tax-free, right?

(Thinking about it, I could do the same,  but I might have comingled the funds already,  I will have to check)

AFAIK Thai tax residents are subject to inheritance tax on inheritances received regardless of the domicile of the testator, the country of inherited real estate (often not protected by DTA), and the remittance of inherited funds to Thailand. However, exemption thresholds are high and inheritance tax rates low. Better to file for inheritance taxes if necessary, at least when you plan to remit inherited funds to Thailand.

[ukrules]

9 hours ago, JimGant said:

Now, Thai fat cats, who have no DTA exemptions to hide behind, will feel the sting.

 

I don't believe that for one minute, they will do the same as a lot of us.

 

It's trivially easy to lose that residency status due to the 180 day rule whether Thai or not.

 

May 5 is just day 126 of 2024, day 180 is on June 28 this year.

 

[Mike Lister]

An update to Capital Gains:

 

49) One way to separate capital and gain may be to have an official valuation or statement that is dated 1 January 2024 (or earlier) since anything earned before that date, is not assessable. That is easier to do with investments but may not be possible with real estate. One usually reliable source has said that any gain begins the date the asset was first acquired and that it is not possible to reset the start date to January 2024. We can add with great certainty however that the date of your move to Thailand has no bearing on the valuation date of a capital asset. Also, if the profit has been the subject of a Capital Gains (CG) return in the home country, that also may be free of Thai tax because the gain would have been converted to savings, at that point.  

 

50) We do not know at this time, exactly  how the Thai Revenue will chose to distinguish between  capital and  gain, what is described above is only one approach. Another approach is apportionment, which is where every transfer from the combined capital and gain, contains a mix of capital and gain and this continues until the total amount is exhausted. Yet a third possibility is that the income is remitted first and that capital always follows. We are told by one of our sources of information that any remittance of a capital gain will contain both parts and that it is not possible to declare the remittance solely as one or the other. We will need to remain vigilant for news on this issue.

 

51) Lastly, It is clear from the Sherings Q&A link below that CG resulting from the sale of foreign assets, whilst not resident in Thailand, are free of Thai tax. As a stop gap measure and for planning purposes, selling the assets before moving to Thailand would appear tax efficient, as would remitting the proceeds whilst not Thai tax resident. 

[Mike Lister]

Some silly rabbit feels that these tax threads are patronising, but instead of suggesting ways to make them less so, leaves silly messages about it in unrelated threads. What can be said about this behaviour, if you have an issue, spit it out and say directly what it is and we'll try and fix it. Methinks the real issue might be that the subject matter confuses that member but he's too shy to say so publicly, as indeed many are the same. One answer is to do what many many others do and PM me and I'll try to help and I wont tell a soul, I promise.

 

As for making the subject matter easier to understand for those not well versed in such things.......I'm trying hard to keep things simple, even if you think it's not. Despite best efforts, a one thousand piece jig saw still comprises one thousand pieces and we can't change that! If anyone has suggestions as to how the material can be made more understandable, please shout.

 

 

 

[jwest10]

16 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Your final figure is correct but the titles of the deductions are off somewhat:

 

a) Personal Allowance for self (PA1) - 60,000

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000 (doesn't matter if working or not)

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax (ZR) 

 

As far as filing is concerned, my view currently is that as long as the assessible income exceeds the threshold, and you have said yours does, we will need to file next year.

 

Mike
 

Thanks again and I really appreciate all the help and information to myself and so many others and lol sorry about the lack if technical terms.
At the moment my total income is approx 1k sterling and say exchange rate 42 and not sure what exchange rate would be used but approx Baht 514584 so my tax exemption is higher.
Thanks so much, Mike and yes will wait to see about the Tin  later on but think I read that even though no tax to pay there could be a penalty charged but not sure of this.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Mike
 

Thanks again and I really appreciate all the help and information to myself and so many others and lol sorry about the lack if technical terms.
At the moment my total income is approx 1k sterling and say exchange rate 42 and not sure what exchange rate would be used but approx Baht 514584 so my tax exemption is higher.
Thanks so much, Mike and yes will wait to see about the Tin  later on but think I read that even though no tax to pay there could be a penalty charged but not sure of this.

I wouldn't get too excited about that penalty for not filing if I were you, I think you'd have to be extremely unlucky if it were levied.

[Yumthai]

4 hours ago, ukrules said:

14 hours ago, JimGant said:

Now, Thai fat cats, who have no DTA exemptions to hide behind, will feel the sting.

 

I don't believe that for one minute, they will do the same as a lot of us.

 

It's trivially easy to lose that residency status due to the 180 day rule whether Thai or not.

 

May 5 is just day 126 of 2024, day 180 is on June 28 this year.

I don't believe that anything will change for the Thai fat cats, nor they will spend less time in Thailand.

There will still be (new/legal) ways to enjoy in-country their foreign earned money.

We should not forget who really rule Thailand.