Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[TroubleandGrumpy]

18 hours ago, JimGant said:

Adios, and good luck.

Ditto mate.

[retiree]

A lot of the questions people raise won't be relevant to your calculation.  The main considerations are:

 -- were you a Thai tax resident when you earned / received it?  This establishes that it is assessable income.

 -- how much of it did you bring into Thailand?  This establishes what is taxable income. 

 

The simplest case is (if you have a tax credit DTA, and are a Thai tax resident): 

 -- you made $100K back home this year.

 -- you brought $35K into Thailand this year, and filed and paid your taxes bright and early in January.

 -- when you file & pay your home-country taxes, there will be a form that lets you subtract the Thai payment from the bill for tax on $100K back there.

 

Yes, the type of income, or type of DTA, or timing of bringing funds into Thailand may require more documentation on one side or the other.   Again:

 -- if you have a tax credit or exclusion DTA (e.g. US social security payments), or 

 -- have already made your home-country tax payment in a prior year (when you were a Thai tax resident), or

 -- receive income that is taxed before you even see it,

you'll have to claim (or show) documentation to get credit against, or exemption from, any Thai tax. 

 

But start with the simple model in mind.  It may be that the amount you must bring into Thailand for yourself just isn't subject to that much tax.  

 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by retiree

[TroubleandGrumpy]

18 hours ago, scorecard said:

You mentioned receiving the Oz gov't. pension. I assume you mean the Oz Old Age Pension (OAP), which by Oz legislation is exempt from Aust. personal taxation.

As is the Oz DVA Service Pension and/or the Oz Permanent Disability Compensation Allowance,  previously called the DVA Disability Pension, all exempt from Oz personal taxation.

Receiving any of these payments probably means any other income is quite small (but I quickly add, that's not my business to assume).

My Guess (just my guess, nothing more) is that Thailand will not 'classify' any of the above payments as taxable in Thailand regardless of 183 days residency etc. And in any case the total amounts would probably mean that person is under the lower income threshhold. 

Yes - the Old Age Pension and it is not taxable income and it is not taxed.

I have savings in a Super Fund from working for many years - which I also remit to Thailand as required.

The Pension is less than 500K Baht (well over 150K) - so I also remit about 500K Baht from Super savings.

Tax was paid on my working income oiver many years put into Super and any withdrawals are tax free.

 

But the problem is - if I lodge a tax return - what documents will be acceptable to the Thai RD to prove that tax has either been paid in Australia (savings in Super) or is not applicable (Pension payments). If I am required to show that tax has already been paid on the Super savings I have no way to prove that. I can show that I received a Pension with a statement from Govt, but Super Funds do not provide detailed reports or statements that show any tax has been paid in the past.  My annual statements from Govt regarding Taxes and Pension are July 1 to June 30 - getting Jan 1 to Dec 30 statements is near impossible.

 

That statement you made is the issue - "I guess Thailand RD will not classify any of those amounts as taxable income."  The problem is you/I do not know that for sure - and at the moment the 'advice' is to lodge a tax return and 'claim' tax credits as per the Thai/Aust DTA, and then see what happens - you sjould be fine mate. Well my answer toi that, given that I know a lot about tax organisations and the Thai bureacracy, is no thank you.  I need to know (and should have the right to know ) now or soon, exactly what they will classify as taxable income - and none of the 'tax experts' know.  Likewise, the 'tax experts' are saying that if you remit more than about 150K Baht into Thailand in 2024, then you should be lodging a tax return, and you claim the credits/offsets on tax already paid. So how will I claim 'credits' when the Pension is not taxed, and the Super Savings was taxed a long time ago when they were income, and any growth sicne then is taxed at 15% (an the Super Fund level - not account by account).

 

Like you said - wait and see what happens - and hope I am not one of the 'early adopters' or as we say in Aust 'the bleeding edge'. 

[freeworld]

48 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

But then again read  below from the tax  depts Thai website , the UK tax is  zero they should  apply that rate  according to them   as thats the better rate. I for one will certainly bring in no more than 150k and live of my Wifes  income if they start this stupidity   .https://www.rd.go.th/english/23520.html

 

 

5.   What happens if the rate of tax stipulated in the Revenue Code is different from that of an agreement?  

- Apply the rate which is more beneficial to the taxpayer.  

For the uk dta see article 6: Limitation of relief.

Edited October 7, 2023 by freeworld

[TroubleandGrumpy]

16 hours ago, stat said:

Maybe you will not be allowed to leave the country right after Somchai discovered that you potentially owe Thailand several Million THB. Easy as chips as you usually leave via an airport or an official border with an IO officer and a computer. The risk is real.

Good point.  Ok then - how about this (if stopped)  "I am leaving to attend a family funeral, and that is why my Wife is not with me - I will be back within a week as per the return flight I have."  and/or  "What letter from the Revenue Department?".

[TroubleandGrumpy]

4 hours ago, jacko45k said:

I actually started to lodge Thai tax returns some years ago to reclaim the withholding tax on bank interest, which was worth a few bob. Before I qualified for my State  pension.... the interest dwindled, and maybe Covid helped the RD to forget to send reminders..  so I got absent minded too!

Best to stay that way and see what happens ???? 

[freeworld]

 

deleted.

Edited October 7, 2023 by freeworld

[TroubleandGrumpy]

19 hours ago, Andycoops said:

I am not holding my breath like TiT officials utter these things and very little ever comes of them.

And if it were to pass the amount of actual tax would be minimal if you go by the current tax threshold as published.

The Tax payable on 1 Million Baht is about 120,000 Baht. If I stay in Thailand for 10 years (mid 70s) and pay that income tax every year, that totals 1.2 Million Baht.  Over 15 years (I will then be close to 80) that is 1.8 Million Baht.  Not a chance in Hell I am paying that for the 'privelege3' of being treated like I am in Thailand, for absolutely nothing in return. 

 

Sure - they probably will not tax me on all the money I bring into Thailand (but maybne half?),. But the problems of dealing with the Thai RD and all the problems they will cause me, is not worth it.  Especially when I consider the probability that they will be way worse than any IO, and they can jail me and fine me huge amounts of money, and then deport me.   

Here is what I am talking about - Quote from Google - lots of others:-

"A fine of THB 2,000 applies for failure to file a tax return by the deadline. Late payment penalties (below) also apply. Intentionally failing to file in an attempt to evade tax will result in a fine of up to THB 5,000, and imprisonment of up to 6 months."

"Failing to comply with tax laws in Thailand can result in fines ranging from 1,000 baht to 200,000 baht, depending on the severity of the violation. In addition to the fixed fines, a monthly interest rate of 1.5 percent is applied to the outstanding tax amount."

"In Thailand, another common penalty for not sticking to tax laws is imprisonment. Even a minor offense such as forgetting to deduct withholding tax on a single invoice can result in one month of jail time."

 

If Thailand RD clearly conveys what is and what is not personal taxable income for Expats living in Thailand on Retirement and Marriage Visas - then and only then can I feel safe in regards to taxation obligations while I am living as an Expat in Thailand.  While those statements above are mainly applicable for Expats owning a business in Thailand or working in Thailand, now that they have expanded their 'net' for personal income taxes, I am not letting this go easily with a 'she''l be right mate' approach. The downsides of being caught up in this could be huge.  Sure it could also be a storm in a tea cup.  But until I know that for sure, I am going to remember those very wise words - "There are only two things that you cannot avoid - Death and Taxes".

[Rampant Rabbit]

19 minutes ago, freeworld said:

For the uk dta see article 6: Limitation of relief.

They want to class me as "resident" for tax, two words in their "residents of  Thailand"  then "and contracting states" of which the UK is a  contracting state

[TroubleandGrumpy]

12 hours ago, Guavaman said:

For all of you who are thinking that you can just leave the country if/when you get into a situation with the Revenue Department, see Ballpoint's post above. RD flagged his passport and notified Immigration. Nowadays, Immigration would put your name and passport no. on a computerized list that would raise an alarm with the IO who is processing your departure and most likely seize your passport,  preventing you from leaving the country until things are sorted out with the RD.  Or you will experience this when you try to do a 90 day report or an annual extension of stay.

Bugger.  That means unless the Thai RD has clearly stated I will not be liable to pay income taxes by the end of 2024, then we are out of here before March 2025 - when a tax return is due.  Clearly, just staying low and keeping quiet for a few years aint the right strategy. 

[Mike Lister]

13 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

They want to class me as "resident" for tax, two words in their "residents of  Thailand"  then "and contracting states" of which the UK is a  contracting state

Not trying to be pedantic here but a resident of Thailand and a resident of Thailand for tax purposes are not the same. Someone here on a long stay visa is not a resident of Thailand, only a Thai citizen or a person who has been granted residency can be a Thai resident.

[aldriglikvid]

26 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Sure - they probably will not tax me on all the money I bring into Thailand (but maybne half?)

Haven't visited this thread in one week. Last time I was here you argued automatic surveillance of all incoming transfers and CC- & debit payments. Now you've tuned it up to a 50% flat tax of transfers into the country. If any of these things would be implemented, it would be a 'worlds first'. 

 

I'd recommend everyone to not indulge oneself in this amount of fear mongering, adjacent to paranoia, as it might very well impact mental health. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by aldriglikvid

[Rampant Rabbit]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Not trying to be pedantic here but a resident of Thailand and a resident of Thailand for tax purposes are not the same. Someone here on a long stay visa is not a resident of Thailand, only a Thai citizen or a person who has been granted residency can be a Thai resident.

Yes Thanks I do know that, its  all rather unclear in almost every sense of the wording. How  about the contracting state part?

[redwood1]

18 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Not trying to be pedantic here but a resident of Thailand and a resident of Thailand for tax purposes are not the same. Someone here on a long stay visa is not a resident of Thailand, only a Thai citizen or a person who has been granted residency can be a Thai resident.

And what does this say? It says NON IMMIGRANT on a retirement visa...

 

You are not a resident of Thailand..

Thats why farangs on a NON-O recive zero  benifits.....Because.....Drum roll.....They are not a 

legal entity in Thailand...

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by redwood1

[zombie nights]

14 minutes ago, aldriglikvid said:

 

 

I'd recommend everyone to not indulge oneself in this amount of fear mongering, adjacent to paranoia, as it might very well impact mental health. 

Agree: causing unnecessary stress and we need to get the precise new regulations, so we know where we stand and can then deal with it.

[Mike Lister]

10 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

And what does this say? It says NON IMMIGRANT on a retirement visa...

 

You are not a resident of Thailand..

Thats why farangs on a NON-O recive zero  benifits.....Because.....Drum roll.....They are not a 

legal entity in Thailand...

 

So we agree, a long stay visa holder is not a resident of Thailand, great.

 

But I'm unclear what you mean when you write, "not a legal entity in Thailand" and receive "zero benefits". The only requirement to pay tax in Thailand is to be resident here for more than 183 days, regardless of any other factor.

[Mike Lister]

21 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Yes Thanks I do know that, its  all rather unclear in almost every sense of the wording. How  about the contracting state part?

The "contracting state" is the second party to the DTA, in this case, Thailand:

 

The DTA applies to persons who are residents of the Contracting States. In order to be classified as a Thai resident and be entitled to treaty benefits, a person must be one of the following:

- An individual who stays in Thailand for a period or periods exceeding in the aggregate 180 days in a tax year;

- A juristic person who is incorporated under the Civil and Commercial Code of Thailand.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21973.html

[moogradod]

42 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

..............................................

 

If Thailand RD clearly conveys what is and what is not personal taxable income for Expats wnsides of being caught up in this could be huge.  Sure it could also be a storm in a tea cup.  But until I know that for sure, I living in Thailand on Retirement and Marriage Visas - then and only then can I feel safe in regards to taxation obligations while I am living as an Expat in Thailand. 

And you may add to Retirement and Marriage as well Thai Elite (now Prestige). So your main worries are as well mine. Payment is not the problem. But I do not want to approach the RD before all open questions are answered. So far Thai Elite has many times been advertised as tax free. But this seems now definitely not to be the case, only certain other Long Stay Visa.

 

So for preparation I do need the most professional accountant  / tax specialist there is in Chonburi or I really get seriously disturbed in the mind. Or may I safely relax for some more weeks ? Anybody knows someone with real expertise and possibly connections to the RD ? If Yes then pls. mail. Thanks.

[Mike Teavee]

2 hours ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

But then again read  below from the tax  depts Thai website , the UK tax is  zero they should  apply that rate  according to them   as thats the better rate. I for one will certainly bring in no more than 150k and live of my Wifes  income if they start this stupidity   .https://www.rd.go.th/english/23520.html

 

 

5.   What happens if the rate of tax stipulated in the Revenue Code is different from that of an agreement?  

- Apply the rate which is more beneficial to the taxpayer.  

Thanks, that's a hugely important piece of information as it would seem to mean that any income covered by the Double Taxation Agreement/Treaty that has been tax assessed/paid in your home country would not incur any additional Tax in Thailand.

 

 

 

[freeworld]

1 minute ago, moogradod said:

And you may add to Retirement and Marriage as well Thai Elite (now Prestige). So your main worries are as well mine. Payment is not the problem. But I do not want to approach the RD before all open questions are answered. So far Thai Elite has many times been advertised as tax free. But this seems now definitely not to be the case, only certain other Long Stay Visa.

 

So for preparation I do need the most professional accountant  / tax specialist there is in Chonburi or I really get seriously disturbed in the mind. Or may I safely relax for some more weeks ? Anybody knows someone with real expertise and possibly connections to the RD ? If Yes then pls. mail. Thanks.

Relax, many tax accountants don't know and many RD people also don't know. Take your time and assess your situation. You have until maybe 25th of June 2024 next year to get clarification.

 

 

[redwood1]

17 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

So we agree, a long stay visa holder is not a resident of Thailand, great.

 

But I'm unclear what you mean when you write, "not a legal entity in Thailand" and receive "zero benefits". The only requirement to pay tax in Thailand is to be resident here for more than 183 days, regardless of any other factor.

Dont ask me I am as confused as everone else here....

 

I just think its funny after decades of reminding farang they have no rights or benifits because they are on a NON IMMIGRANT VISA,......Now after 180 days they might all the sudden be a resident .....A resident that is with no rights or benifits  except for the right to pay taxes.....lol

 

 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

Dont ask me I am as confused as everone else here....

 

I just think its funny after decades of reminding farang they have no rights or benifits because they are on a NON IMMIGRANT VISA,......Now after 180 days they might all the sudden be a resident .....A resident that is with no rights or benifits  except for the right to pay taxes.....lol

 

 

Once again, a resident and a resident for tax purposes are two very separate and different things, as in any country. All that's happening at present is that Thailand  is implementing international standards whereas previously they were ignored.

[freeworld]

3 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

Dont ask me I am as confused as everone else here....

 

I just think its funny after decades of reminding farang they have no rights or benifits because they are on a NON IMMIGRANT VISA,......Now after 180 days they might all the sudden be a resident .....A resident that is with no rights or benifits  except for the right to pay taxes.....lol

 

 

Money is needed to fund govt services of which I'm sure every long term tax resident is making use of in some form or another.

[Rampant Rabbit]

23 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The "contracting state" is the second party to the DTA, in this case, Thailand:

 

The DTA applies to persons who are residents of the Contracting States. In order to be classified as a Thai resident and be entitled to treaty benefits, a person must be one of the following:

- An individual who stays in Thailand for a period or periods exceeding in the aggregate 180 days in a tax year;

- A juristic person who is incorporated under the Civil and Commercial Code of Thailand.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21973.html

Ok so as I will be here more than 180 days this means I am a resident? and as  such should be taxed at the more beneficial rate?  in my case that would be zero on the UK state  pension.

The real problem is resident and tax  resident wordings, they should give one a  new  name.

If I bring NO income to  Thailand I assume I am liable for no tax? unless they go down the worldwide income remitted  or not route..........of  course this  will be followed at Immigration with how I "live" in Thailand. I did bring in 2 million in 2019 tax  paid with document from the UK tax  dept showing that at 20% but again Thailand would want 35% of  that...sheeeeeesh it just gets  worse, I think Ill go to the tax  dept give them ALL my money to save time then step off the balcony.............hoepfully  in the tax  dept and aim to get the head man on impact on the way down.

[Rampant Rabbit]

13 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Thanks, that's a hugely important piece of information as it would seem to mean that any income covered by the Double Taxation Agreement/Treaty that has been tax assessed/paid in your home country would not incur any additional Tax in Thailand.

 

 

 

Thats was my take on it  but maybe not.

[fusion58]

Well, I’m currently thanking my lucky stars that I already had a plan to leave the Land of Scams for good before June 2024 in place 

 

All I can say is that the pinheads who are running this country make Matt Gaetz look like Abraham Lincoln. 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Ok so as I will be here more than 180 days this means I am a resident? and as  such should be taxed at the more beneficial rate?  in my case that would be zero on the UK state  pension.

The real problem is resident and tax  resident wordings, they should give one a  new  name.

If I bring NO income to  Thailand I assume I am liable for no tax? unless they go down the worldwide income remitted  or not route..........of  course this  will be followed at Immigration with how I "live" in Thailand. I did bring in 2 million in 2019 tax  paid with document from the UK tax  dept showing that at 20% but again Thailand would want 35% of  that...sheeeeeesh it just gets  worse, I think Ill go to the tax  dept give them ALL my money to save time then step off the balcony.............hoepfully  in the tax  dept and aim to get the head man on impact on the way down.

Yes to the more than 180 day part.

 

They are different names already, one is resident, the other is tax resident or resident for tax purposes, you have to pay close attention to the wording.

 

Correct to No income into Thailand part.

 

As for the rest of what you wrote, you worry too much and your imagination is far too vivid, relax, it will be OK.

 

FWIW I think everyone should stop trying to second guess this and worry needlessly. Thailand has a solid track record of announcing new things before they've been thought through fully, once they have, at a later date, what is implemented will make sence and be logical.

 

 

[TravelerEastWest]

25 minutes ago, moogradod said:

 

So for preparation I do need the most professional accountant  / tax specialist there is in Chonburi or I really get seriously disturbed in the mind. Or may I safely relax for some more weeks ? Anybody knows someone with real expertise and possibly connections to the RD ? 

There are very few tax specialists inThailand the ones there are are mostly in Bangkok and will be expensive.

 

Local Thai CPAs normally don't know much about advanced tax questions. Worse yet they tend to have friends in the local Revenue office, Those Revenue agents are normally not well trained and will give the governments side of the issue.

 

Stay calm for now...

 

 

[Rampant Rabbit]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes to the more than 180 day part.

 

They are different names already, one is resident, the other is tax resident or resident for tax purposes, you have to pay close attention to the wording.

 

Correct to No income into Thailand part.

 

As for the rest of what you wrote, you worry too much and your imagination is far too vivid, relax, it will be OK.

 

FWIW I think everyone should stop trying to second guess this and worry needlessly. Thailand has a solid track record of announcing new things before they've been thought through fully, once they have, at a later date, what is implemented will make sence and be logical.

 

 

I see a  world where EVERYTHING you do is watched / checked /monitored its quickly going that way, the abandoment of  cash the introduction of technology in cars to control the vehicles speed even to stop you using it at certain times of day is virtually already there and peoples  willingness to accept it, the  "if youve nothing to hide people" until a mistake  happens, its way past  Orwellian already. Thankfully Ill be dead by the times its  all done and dusted.

[moogradod]

22 minutes ago, freeworld said:

Relax, many tax accountants don't know and many RD people also don't know. Take your time and assess your situation. You have until maybe 25th of June 2024 next year to get clarification.

 

 

Thanks a lot for your consolation. The assessing of the situation may currently even be difficult, but in 2 months or so I hope it is clear and then all I need as someone assisting me at / with the RD. And I would wish to get one of the best. I am prepared to face difficulties with that.