48 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

But then again read  below from the tax  depts Thai website , the UK tax is  zero they should  apply that rate  according to them   as thats the better rate. I for one will certainly bring in no more than 150k and live of my Wifes  income if they start this stupidity   .https://www.rd.go.th/english/23520.html

 

 

5.   What happens if the rate of tax stipulated in the Revenue Code is different from that of an agreement?  

- Apply the rate which is more beneficial to the taxpayer.  

For the uk dta see article 6: Limitation of relief.

16 hours ago, stat said:

Maybe you will not be allowed to leave the country right after Somchai discovered that you potentially owe Thailand several Million THB. Easy as chips as you usually leave via an airport or an official border with an IO officer and a computer. The risk is real.

Good point.  Ok then - how about this (if stopped)  "I am leaving to attend a family funeral, and that is why my Wife is not with me - I will be back within a week as per the return flight I have."  and/or  "What letter from the Revenue Department?".

4 hours ago, jacko45k said:

I actually started to lodge Thai tax returns some years ago to reclaim the withholding tax on bank interest, which was worth a few bob. Before I qualified for my State  pension.... the interest dwindled, and maybe Covid helped the RD to forget to send reminders..  so I got absent minded too!

Best to stay that way and see what happens ???? 

 

deleted.

19 hours ago, Andycoops said:

I am not holding my breath like TiT officials utter these things and very little ever comes of them.

And if it were to pass the amount of actual tax would be minimal if you go by the current tax threshold as published.

The Tax payable on 1 Million Baht is about 120,000 Baht. If I stay in Thailand for 10 years (mid 70s) and pay that income tax every year, that totals 1.2 Million Baht.  Over 15 years (I will then be close to 80) that is 1.8 Million Baht.  Not a chance in Hell I am paying that for the 'privelege3' of being treated like I am in Thailand, for absolutely nothing in return. 

 

Sure - they probably will not tax me on all the money I bring into Thailand (but maybne half?),. But the problems of dealing with the Thai RD and all the problems they will cause me, is not worth it.  Especially when I consider the probability that they will be way worse than any IO, and they can jail me and fine me huge amounts of money, and then deport me.   

Here is what I am talking about - Quote from Google - lots of others:-

"A fine of THB 2,000 applies for failure to file a tax return by the deadline. Late payment penalties (below) also apply. Intentionally failing to file in an attempt to evade tax will result in a fine of up to THB 5,000, and imprisonment of up to 6 months."

"Failing to comply with tax laws in Thailand can result in fines ranging from 1,000 baht to 200,000 baht, depending on the severity of the violation. In addition to the fixed fines, a monthly interest rate of 1.5 percent is applied to the outstanding tax amount."

"In Thailand, another common penalty for not sticking to tax laws is imprisonment. Even a minor offense such as forgetting to deduct withholding tax on a single invoice can result in one month of jail time."

 

If Thailand RD clearly conveys what is and what is not personal taxable income for Expats living in Thailand on Retirement and Marriage Visas - then and only then can I feel safe in regards to taxation obligations while I am living as an Expat in Thailand.  While those statements above are mainly applicable for Expats owning a business in Thailand or working in Thailand, now that they have expanded their 'net' for personal income taxes, I am not letting this go easily with a 'she''l be right mate' approach. The downsides of being caught up in this could be huge.  Sure it could also be a storm in a tea cup.  But until I know that for sure, I am going to remember those very wise words - "There are only two things that you cannot avoid - Death and Taxes".

19 minutes ago, freeworld said:

For the uk dta see article 6: Limitation of relief.

They want to class me as "resident" for tax, two words in their "residents of  Thailand"  then "and contracting states" of which the UK is a  contracting state

12 hours ago, Guavaman said:

For all of you who are thinking that you can just leave the country if/when you get into a situation with the Revenue Department, see Ballpoint's post above. RD flagged his passport and notified Immigration. Nowadays, Immigration would put your name and passport no. on a computerized list that would raise an alarm with the IO who is processing your departure and most likely seize your passport,  preventing you from leaving the country until things are sorted out with the RD.  Or you will experience this when you try to do a 90 day report or an annual extension of stay.

Bugger.  That means unless the Thai RD has clearly stated I will not be liable to pay income taxes by the end of 2024, then we are out of here before March 2025 - when a tax return is due.  Clearly, just staying low and keeping quiet for a few years aint the right strategy. 

13 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

They want to class me as "resident" for tax, two words in their "residents of  Thailand"  then "and contracting states" of which the UK is a  contracting state

Not trying to be pedantic here but a resident of Thailand and a resident of Thailand for tax purposes are not the same. Someone here on a long stay visa is not a resident of Thailand, only a Thai citizen or a person who has been granted residency can be a Thai resident.

26 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Sure - they probably will not tax me on all the money I bring into Thailand (but maybne half?)

Haven't visited this thread in one week. Last time I was here you argued automatic surveillance of all incoming transfers and CC- & debit payments. Now you've tuned it up to a 50% flat tax of transfers into the country. If any of these things would be implemented, it would be a 'worlds first'. 

 

I'd recommend everyone to not indulge oneself in this amount of fear mongering, adjacent to paranoia, as it might very well impact mental health. 

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Not trying to be pedantic here but a resident of Thailand and a resident of Thailand for tax purposes are not the same. Someone here on a long stay visa is not a resident of Thailand, only a Thai citizen or a person who has been granted residency can be a Thai resident.

Yes Thanks I do know that, its  all rather unclear in almost every sense of the wording. How  about the contracting state part?

18 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Not trying to be pedantic here but a resident of Thailand and a resident of Thailand for tax purposes are not the same. Someone here on a long stay visa is not a resident of Thailand, only a Thai citizen or a person who has been granted residency can be a Thai resident.

And what does this say? It says NON IMMIGRANT on a retirement visa...

 

You are not a resident of Thailand..

Thats why farangs on a NON-O recive zero  benifits.....Because.....Drum roll.....They are not a 

legal entity in Thailand...

 

14 minutes ago, aldriglikvid said:

 

 

I'd recommend everyone to not indulge oneself in this amount of fear mongering, adjacent to paranoia, as it might very well impact mental health. 

Agree: causing unnecessary stress and we need to get the precise new regulations, so we know where we stand and can then deal with it.

10 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

And what does this say? It says NON IMMIGRANT on a retirement visa...

 

You are not a resident of Thailand..

Thats why farangs on a NON-O recive zero  benifits.....Because.....Drum roll.....They are not a 

legal entity in Thailand...

 

So we agree, a long stay visa holder is not a resident of Thailand, great.

 

But I'm unclear what you mean when you write, "not a legal entity in Thailand" and receive "zero benefits". The only requirement to pay tax in Thailand is to be resident here for more than 183 days, regardless of any other factor.

21 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Yes Thanks I do know that, its  all rather unclear in almost every sense of the wording. How  about the contracting state part?

The "contracting state" is the second party to the DTA, in this case, Thailand:

 

The DTA applies to persons who are residents of the Contracting States. In order to be classified as a Thai resident and be entitled to treaty benefits, a person must be one of the following:

- An individual who stays in Thailand for a period or periods exceeding in the aggregate 180 days in a tax year;

- A juristic person who is incorporated under the Civil and Commercial Code of Thailand.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21973.html

42 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

..............................................

 

If Thailand RD clearly conveys what is and what is not personal taxable income for Expats wnsides of being caught up in this could be huge.  Sure it could also be a storm in a tea cup.  But until I know that for sure, I living in Thailand on Retirement and Marriage Visas - then and only then can I feel safe in regards to taxation obligations while I am living as an Expat in Thailand. 

And you may add to Retirement and Marriage as well Thai Elite (now Prestige). So your main worries are as well mine. Payment is not the problem. But I do not want to approach the RD before all open questions are answered. So far Thai Elite has many times been advertised as tax free. But this seems now definitely not to be the case, only certain other Long Stay Visa.

 

So for preparation I do need the most professional accountant  / tax specialist there is in Chonburi or I really get seriously disturbed in the mind. Or may I safely relax for some more weeks ? Anybody knows someone with real expertise and possibly connections to the RD ? If Yes then pls. mail. Thanks.

2 hours ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

But then again read  below from the tax  depts Thai website , the UK tax is  zero they should  apply that rate  according to them   as thats the better rate. I for one will certainly bring in no more than 150k and live of my Wifes  income if they start this stupidity   .https://www.rd.go.th/english/23520.html

 

 

5.   What happens if the rate of tax stipulated in the Revenue Code is different from that of an agreement?  

- Apply the rate which is more beneficial to the taxpayer.  

Thanks, that's a hugely important piece of information as it would seem to mean that any income covered by the Double Taxation Agreement/Treaty that has been tax assessed/paid in your home country would not incur any additional Tax in Thailand.

 

 

 

1 minute ago, moogradod said:

And you may add to Retirement and Marriage as well Thai Elite (now Prestige). So your main worries are as well mine. Payment is not the problem. But I do not want to approach the RD before all open questions are answered. So far Thai Elite has many times been advertised as tax free. But this seems now definitely not to be the case, only certain other Long Stay Visa.

 

So for preparation I do need the most professional accountant  / tax specialist there is in Chonburi or I really get seriously disturbed in the mind. Or may I safely relax for some more weeks ? Anybody knows someone with real expertise and possibly connections to the RD ? If Yes then pls. mail. Thanks.

Relax, many tax accountants don't know and many RD people also don't know. Take your time and assess your situation. You have until maybe 25th of June 2024 next year to get clarification.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

So we agree, a long stay visa holder is not a resident of Thailand, great.

 

But I'm unclear what you mean when you write, "not a legal entity in Thailand" and receive "zero benefits". The only requirement to pay tax in Thailand is to be resident here for more than 183 days, regardless of any other factor.

Dont ask me I am as confused as everone else here....

 

I just think its funny after decades of reminding farang they have no rights or benifits because they are on a NON IMMIGRANT VISA,......Now after 180 days they might all the sudden be a resident .....A resident that is with no rights or benifits  except for the right to pay taxes.....lol

 

 

2 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

Dont ask me I am as confused as everone else here....

 

I just think its funny after decades of reminding farang they have no rights or benifits because they are on a NON IMMIGRANT VISA,......Now after 180 days they might all the sudden be a resident .....A resident that is with no rights or benifits  except for the right to pay taxes.....lol

 

 

Once again, a resident and a resident for tax purposes are two very separate and different things, as in any country. All that's happening at present is that Thailand  is implementing international standards whereas previously they were ignored.

3 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

Dont ask me I am as confused as everone else here....

 

I just think its funny after decades of reminding farang they have no rights or benifits because they are on a NON IMMIGRANT VISA,......Now after 180 days they might all the sudden be a resident .....A resident that is with no rights or benifits  except for the right to pay taxes.....lol

 

 

Money is needed to fund govt services of which I'm sure every long term tax resident is making use of in some form or another.

23 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The "contracting state" is the second party to the DTA, in this case, Thailand:

 

The DTA applies to persons who are residents of the Contracting States. In order to be classified as a Thai resident and be entitled to treaty benefits, a person must be one of the following:

- An individual who stays in Thailand for a period or periods exceeding in the aggregate 180 days in a tax year;

- A juristic person who is incorporated under the Civil and Commercial Code of Thailand.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21973.html

Ok so as I will be here more than 180 days this means I am a resident? and as  such should be taxed at the more beneficial rate?  in my case that would be zero on the UK state  pension.

The real problem is resident and tax  resident wordings, they should give one a  new  name.

If I bring NO income to  Thailand I assume I am liable for no tax? unless they go down the worldwide income remitted  or not route..........of  course this  will be followed at Immigration with how I "live" in Thailand. I did bring in 2 million in 2019 tax  paid with document from the UK tax  dept showing that at 20% but again Thailand would want 35% of  that...sheeeeeesh it just gets  worse, I think Ill go to the tax  dept give them ALL my money to save time then step off the balcony.............hoepfully  in the tax  dept and aim to get the head man on impact on the way down.

13 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Thanks, that's a hugely important piece of information as it would seem to mean that any income covered by the Double Taxation Agreement/Treaty that has been tax assessed/paid in your home country would not incur any additional Tax in Thailand.

 

 

 

Thats was my take on it  but maybe not.

Well, I’m currently thanking my lucky stars that I already had a plan to leave the Land of Scams for good before June 2024 in place 

 

All I can say is that the pinheads who are running this country make Matt Gaetz look like Abraham Lincoln. 

2 minutes ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Ok so as I will be here more than 180 days this means I am a resident? and as  such should be taxed at the more beneficial rate?  in my case that would be zero on the UK state  pension.

The real problem is resident and tax  resident wordings, they should give one a  new  name.

If I bring NO income to  Thailand I assume I am liable for no tax? unless they go down the worldwide income remitted  or not route..........of  course this  will be followed at Immigration with how I "live" in Thailand. I did bring in 2 million in 2019 tax  paid with document from the UK tax  dept showing that at 20% but again Thailand would want 35% of  that...sheeeeeesh it just gets  worse, I think Ill go to the tax  dept give them ALL my money to save time then step off the balcony.............hoepfully  in the tax  dept and aim to get the head man on impact on the way down.

Yes to the more than 180 day part.

 

They are different names already, one is resident, the other is tax resident or resident for tax purposes, you have to pay close attention to the wording.

 

Correct to No income into Thailand part.

 

As for the rest of what you wrote, you worry too much and your imagination is far too vivid, relax, it will be OK.

 

FWIW I think everyone should stop trying to second guess this and worry needlessly. Thailand has a solid track record of announcing new things before they've been thought through fully, once they have, at a later date, what is implemented will make sence and be logical.

 

 

25 minutes ago, moogradod said:

 

So for preparation I do need the most professional accountant  / tax specialist there is in Chonburi or I really get seriously disturbed in the mind. Or may I safely relax for some more weeks ? Anybody knows someone with real expertise and possibly connections to the RD ? 

There are very few tax specialists inThailand the ones there are are mostly in Bangkok and will be expensive.

 

Local Thai CPAs normally don't know much about advanced tax questions. Worse yet they tend to have friends in the local Revenue office, Those Revenue agents are normally not well trained and will give the governments side of the issue.

 

Stay calm for now...

 

 

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes to the more than 180 day part.

 

They are different names already, one is resident, the other is tax resident or resident for tax purposes, you have to pay close attention to the wording.

 

Correct to No income into Thailand part.

 

As for the rest of what you wrote, you worry too much and your imagination is far too vivid, relax, it will be OK.

 

FWIW I think everyone should stop trying to second guess this and worry needlessly. Thailand has a solid track record of announcing new things before they've been thought through fully, once they have, at a later date, what is implemented will make sence and be logical.

 

 

I see a  world where EVERYTHING you do is watched / checked /monitored its quickly going that way, the abandoment of  cash the introduction of technology in cars to control the vehicles speed even to stop you using it at certain times of day is virtually already there and peoples  willingness to accept it, the  "if youve nothing to hide people" until a mistake  happens, its way past  Orwellian already. Thankfully Ill be dead by the times its  all done and dusted.

22 minutes ago, freeworld said:

Relax, many tax accountants don't know and many RD people also don't know. Take your time and assess your situation. You have until maybe 25th of June 2024 next year to get clarification.

 

 

Thanks a lot for your consolation. The assessing of the situation may currently even be difficult, but in 2 months or so I hope it is clear and then all I need as someone assisting me at / with the RD. And I would wish to get one of the best. I am prepared to face difficulties with that.

2 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

There are very few tax specialists inThailand the ones there are are mostly in Bangkok and will be expensive.

 

Local Thai CPAs normally don't know much about advanced tax questions. Worse yet they tend to have friends in the local Revenue office, Those Revenue agents are normally not well trained and will give the governments side of the issue.

 

Stay calm for now...

 

 

My experience of obtaining tax advice in Thailand is that the local Revenue office is an excellent place to start. I have always found the RD staff to be the most helpful of any government offices and their staff most willing to help. The Thai Revenue code is not complex for Personal Income returns, the average expat will almost certainly have no problems working thing out, perhaps with some help from Revenue staff. If you get into business taxation or international tax (not PI) the story changes but this is not about those things.

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes to the more than 180 day part.

 

They are different names already, one is resident, the other is tax resident or resident for tax purposes, you have to pay close attention to the wording.

 

Correct to No income into Thailand part.

 

As for the rest of what you wrote, you worry too much and your imagination is far too vivid, relax, it will be OK.

 

FWIW I think everyone should stop trying to second guess this and worry needlessly. Thailand has a solid track record of announcing new things before they've been thought through fully, once they have, at a later date, what is implemented will make sence and be logical.

 

 

Yes I do get it, but again 180 days = resident but should i rewrite that as TAX resdient, theres a  discrepancy in some wording in a previous  post I think it should say tax  resident not resident, ok its here in your  reply below

 

The DTA applies to persons who are residents of the Contracting States. In order to be classified as a Thai resident and be entitled to treaty benefits, a person must be one of the following:

- An individual who stays in Thailand for a period or periods exceeding in the aggregate 180 days in a tax year;

 

Ok so 180days = "resident " according to the above qoute you posted? ( no mention being a  tax  resisdent in that, though i accept i would be) but the above staes I would then be resident?

30 minutes ago, freeworld said:

Relax, many tax accountants don't know and many RD people also don't know. Take your time and assess your situation. You have until maybe 25th of June 2024 next year to get clarification.

 

 

I haven't studied this aspect but it seems to me this new law comes into effect on 1 January, 2024. That means, taxes filed for the tax year 2024, which begins on 1 January and ends on 31 December, must be filed the following year, typically by 31 March 2025.