Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

If you can provide a link to the Revenue Department to confirm that Pensions from the UK in particular are currently non-taxable in Thailand, I will happily agree. Alternatively, I will accept a link to PWC.

 

I don't think that even you could honestly and objectively believe that those conversations with Revenue staff  at the three offices mentioned, represents anything even close to conclusive, sorry, conversations at two offices, you didn't have one.

 

And yes I know I know, you have your reasons and you've told us what they are. But I just have to say, that for somebody who has been actively discussing the subject of the new tax in Thailand, almost daily in the long thread and elsewhere, since October last year, here you are finally at a tax office and you didn't ask one question on the subject. That just seems, um, peculiar, but maybe it's just me.

[newnative]

36 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Somebody with the same mindset as me.

 

Take the win and swiftly and politely move on.

Exactly.

[The Cyclist]

15 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

nd yes I know I know, you have your reasons and you've told us what they are. But I just have to say, that for somebody who has been actively discussing the subject of the new tax in Thailand, almost daily in the long thread and elsewhere, since October last year, here you are finally at a tax office and you didn't ask one question on the subject. That just seems, um, peculiar, but maybe it's just me.

 

As you know the reasons, and I have advised you on those reason since October. It really should come as no surprise as to why I did not ask any questions.

 

* Take the win and walk away.

 

* I also believe that the Pensions referred to in Section 40, pertain to pensions derived in Thailand and not overseas income, be that pensions, or US SC or any other number of incomes that people might be receiving.

 

* Which would also tie in with my long held understanding that if you did not derive any income in Thailand, there was no need to file tax returns

 

* Which is a belief that is also held by the 1000's of others who also do not file tax returns.

 

Over the course of the next 15 months, my belief, and the belief of 1000's of others may well be kicked into the grass, and we might have to file from the end of 2024.

 

C'est La Vie, as the French might say.

 

 

[noobexpat]

14 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Sure

 

* The guy who is going to tell me how to get an NT Tax code for my Government pension.

 

* And secondly tell my why I should give up the current £12570 PTA applied to that pension

 

Should be taken seriously

 

I'll let you into a secret, as I am not a dual National, it is not possible.

 

Peculiar waffle?? Lost me.

 

[Mike Lister]

20 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

As you know the reasons, and I have advised you on those reason since October. It really should come as no surprise as to why I did not ask any questions.

 

* Take the win and walk away.

 

* I also believe that the Pensions referred to in Section 40, pertain to pensions derived in Thailand and not overseas income, be that pensions, or US SC or any other number of incomes that people might be receiving.

 

* Which would also tie in with my long held understanding that if you did not derive any income in Thailand, there was no need to file tax returns

 

* Which is a belief that is also held by the 1000's of others who also do not file tax returns.

 

Over the course of the next 15 months, my belief, and the belief of 1000's of others may well be kicked into the grass, and we might have to file from the end of 2024.

 

C'est La Vie, as the French might say.

 

 

You're using the same debating tactics and points that you have used for the past 4 months and which have resulted in the thread becoming such a huge mess and going round in circles for months. You are not interested in arriving at the facts of the matter, you are only interested in trying to confuse people, fight with them and win arguments, regardless of their merits. The thread was locked for a short period because of this nonsense, please don't take it there again. You're now back to section 40, again, after that  gets debated for goodness how long you'll be back to your claim that assessable income is not defined and so on. You are not being helpful to the topic, your are being quite the opposite.

 

Since you've raised Section 40, why not raise Section 41 also....I already know what your response will be but let's just remind everyone:

 

Under section 41 of the Revenue Code an individual Thai citizen or foreigner who lives in Thailand for one or more periods totaling at least 180 days in any tax (calendar) year is, for tax purposes, deemed a resident of Thailand and subject to tax on all assessable income derived from sources within the country, whether paid within or outside Thailand, and on assessable income derived from foreign sources to the extent that it is brought into Thailand in a year in which income is received. A non-resident individual is subject to tax only on assessable income from Thai sources, regardless of payment location.

 

https://www.thailandlawonline.com/table/revenue-code/#:~:text=Under section 41 of the,from sources within the country%2C

 

 

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You're using the same debating tactics and points that you have used for the past 4 months

 

Perhaps because they might be valid points ?
 

You have took 3 examples from 3 different people, from 3 different RD Offices and compiled list as to why you are not happy with what those 3 RD Offices have to say

 

And you accuse me of being

 

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

you are only interested in trying to confuse people, fight with them and win arguments

 

When, to my mind, the sensible thing to do would be to take those questions to a Tax Expert or even better, the RD themselves, and ask them there.

 

That way you can ask  the questions that you want to ask, instead of badgering people who did not ask questions, because they took the win, took what the RD Office told them at face value and walked away.

[Rimmer]

Unattributed post and replies have been removed

[The Cyclist]

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

and on assessable income derived from foreign sources to the extent that it is brought into Thailand in a year in which income is received.

 

And it would appear, from the response of 3 RD Offices that pensions from the UK are not deemed as assessable income, by those 3 RD Offices at least.

 

Pak Chong, Nan and Ubon.

 

What other RD Offices might do, or say,  I have no idea.

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Perhaps because they might be valid points ?
 

You have took 3 examples from 3 different people, from 3 different RD Offices and compiled list as to why you are not happy with what those 3 RD Offices have to say

 

And you accuse me of being

 

 

When, to my mind, the sensible thing to do would be to take those questions to a Tax Expert or even better, the RD themselves, and ask them there.

 

That way you can ask  the questions that you want to ask, instead of badgering people who did not ask questions, because they took the win, took what the RD Office told them at face value and walked away.

Claiming that casual conversations at 2 remote and semi remote tax offices is conclusive, is just bizarre.

 

Claiming that assessable income is not defined or known is equally as bizarre.

 

Claiming that UK pensions are not taxable in Thailand and offering no proof,  is simply wrong.

 

Being so interested in the topic and not asking a single question at the Revenue office is, well, odd! 

 

Once again, I think we need to move to other contact reports, perhaps in the centers of Bangkok or Chiang Mai or similar because this debate is once again, going round in cirlces.

[The Cyclist]

You are entitled to your opinion.

 

What is equally odd and bizarre is that despite me offering you a course of action that would be far more beneficial, you seem reluctant to take it.

 

The best you are likely to receive on these pages is opinion, backed up by recent experience.  The answers to the questions that you repeatedly demand, are only going to come from Tax experts ( who all appear to be awaiting further instuctions from the RD as of 20 November ) or direct from the RD.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

You are entitled to your opinion.

 

What is equally odd and bizarre is that despite me offering you a course of action that would be far more beneficial, you seem reluctant to take it.

 

The best you are likely to receive on these pages is opinion, backed up by recent experience.  The answers to the questions that you repeatedly demand, are only going to come from Tax experts ( who all appear to be awaiting further instuctions from the RD as of 20 November ) or direct from the RD.

 

 

You see once again, you're holding out hope to readers of the thread that at some point the Revenue will stand up and make some proclamation or provide an in-depth explanation, just for foreigners, even though they only changed one small part of a single rule in Section 41 shown above. Why would they, why would should they, they made their announcement last year and that's the end of it? Telling readers that something magical might yet happen is unfair to them, clearly you don't believe it will happen because you've arranged to keep one of your pensions in the UK!

 

Look, I know you to be a last post person who must have the final word so I'll give it to you, afterwards, can we just move forward rather than go round and around again in these endless circles and confuse more people even further. Thanks

[JimGant]

50 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Claiming that assessable income is not defined or known is equally as bizarre

 

As I posted somewhere in this mess of threads, for Brits, their DTA does NOT define assessable income when it comes to private/State pensions. As such, how is one to know that his Brit private pension is assessable income for Thai tax purposes?

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

As I posted somewhere in this mess of threads, for Brits, their DTA does NOT define assessable income when it comes to private/State pensions. As such, how is one to know that his Brit private pension is assessable income for Thai tax purposes?

Because it is until it isn't, the default is that it's assessible income. You can't have a situation where only income that's defined in the DTA is accepted as assessible and everything else is excluded because it isn't defined.

[JimGant]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You can't have a situation where only income that's defined in the DTA is accepted as assessible and everything else is excluded because it isn't defined.

 

BS

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, JimGant said:

 

BS

 

Why Jim, does that mean you don't agree!   🙂

 

Can you please point me to where it is said that a DTA between any two countries is all inclusive of every type of consideration and that anything that is not included, is non-taxable, by default....please

 

 

[UKresonant]

(Por 161/2566) For a resident of Thailand who Derives or Earns , whilst being a Resident of Thailand, foreign  source assessable income from 1st Jan 2024 onward it's subject to tax when remitted to Thailand (Whenever).

Previously it became taxable when remitted in the preceding Tax Year (to the Tax Filing 1st Jan - 31st March), when derived or earned, whilst being a Resident of Thailand.

(Por 162/2566) don't apply 161/2566 for stuff prior to 1st Jan 2024!

 

So if UK Pensions are of no interest to them to be taxed, by those RD offices perhaps are they thinking they were not derived while tax resident? wording of DTA would suggest not. Or s it because UK does not give relief from UK Tax, and the tax yield after credit relief (UK DTA 23) or exemption (UK DTA 19) is hardly going to yield very much. But there seemed to be a lack of interest, in Thai RD taxing pensions, going back many years. Someone way back suggested it was UK DTA 24, in that Similar Thai Pensions are not taxed as when they are not Government pensions, they are the same except it is a 100% tax free lump sum, rather than a 25% Tax free, and an ongoing payment. Equal treatment?

Still a bit of a mystery. (No written exemption or firm explanation that I've ever been able to find).

 

Going forward, Dividends, CGT as Personal income tax will, bank interest  etc will still surely be. 

 

(this post is a bit delayed as I see there about 10 new post before I pushed the button)

 

p.s I think the tax code is very much written from the Thai National, Thai resident, thinking of going overseas, context. Also we perhaps have a pre conceived concept, of the some times over officious application  of untidy tax laws  they are tasked to enforce.

 

 

[JimGant]

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

a DTA between any two countries is all inclusive of every type of consideration and that anything that is not included, is non-taxable, by default.

 

..... or, what -- that everything that is not included is taxable by the country of residence?

[UKresonant]

Just now, JimGant said:

 

As I posted somewhere in this mess of threads, for Brits, their DTA does NOT define assessable income when it comes to private/State pensions. As such, how is one to know that his Brit private pension is assessable income for Thai tax purposes?

 

Could it be treated the same as Thai Pensions, Tax free at point of taking it,  but then anything derived from it is taxable? (UK Article 24) would not like to test that though!

Maybe since the UK does not offer relief at the UK end (except Thai National & resident on Gov ones), they thought at the time the were always to get Tax credit relief under UK DTA 23 3).  So assumed they did not need an article.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/637e192f8fa8f56eabf75e5b/Double_Taxation_Treaty_Relief_Form_DT-Individual.pdf

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/thailand-tax-treaties#:~:text=The double taxation convention entered,Corporation Tax and development tax

[JimGant]

33 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Because it is until it isn't, the default is that it's assessible income. You can't have a situation where only income that's defined in the DTA is accepted as assessible and everything else is excluded because it isn't defined.

 

Why not?

[Mike Lister]

50 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

Why not?

 

Because in law, as another poster in another thread so conveniently just posted, "In general, all types of income are assessable unless expressly exempt by law".

 

Separately, whilst I'd love to continue this with you, I've had a full day of Thai Tax on AN and then some, don't be upset if I have a break and pick this up tomorrow.

 

 

 

[Guavaman]

Assessable Income in Thailand

Source: Tilleke & Gibbins Thailand Tax Guide:

 

2. Taxable Base

The taxable base is determined by deducting certain allowances from the total assessable income. The total assessable income is determined by aggregating the amounts under the different categories of income after deducting certain permitted expenses from assessable income of each category.

 

In general, all types of income are assessable unless expressly exempt by law.

 

https://www.tilleke.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Thailand-Tax-Guide.pdf

 

Source: MoneyMgmnt

 

Assessable & taxable income

All types of income are generally assessable unless expressly exempt by law (see the exemptions below).

 

You can read the Revenue Code (Section 40) for more details about each type.

While assessable income represents a total of income that counts towards your tax liability, taxable income/base is the actual amount on which you pay tax. You can calculate it by subtracting deductions & allowances from your assessable income:

 

Taxable income = Assessable income (excl. exempt income) - Deductions - Allowance

 

Tax-exempt income

Currently, there are 29 income categories exempt from personal income tax. Below is a summary of some of those most likely to apply to foreigners living in Thailand (courtesy of the Revenue Code):

You can find the full list in the Revenue Code (Section 42).

 

https://www.moneymgmnt.com/tax/personal-income-tax-thailand/

 

[Mike Lister]

6 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

..... or, what -- that everything that is not included is taxable by the country of residence?

Yes

[UKresonant]

I'm starting to think the Thai RD may think it is odd were asking about tax on pensions. 

Cashng in your RMF units appear to be exempt from tax

https://sherrings.com/rmf-ssf-salary-sacrificing-tax-allowances-thailand.html

 

Normally the Retirement Mutual Fund would be cashed in, and they would tax whatever income is produced from where you place the tax exempt lump sum. 

 

Trying to find an example of similar in English for a Thai company pension .scheme.

 

So the.question being "do I need to pay tax on my pension?" Expected logical  answer would perhaps be NO in the Thai pension context.(?)

 

 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, UKresonant said:

I'm starting to think the Thai RD may think it is odd were asking about tax on pensions. 

Cashng in your RMF units appear to be exempt from tax

https://sherrings.com/rmf-ssf-salary-sacrificing-tax-allowances-thailand.html

 

Normally the Retirement Mutual Fund would be cashed in, and they would tax whatever income is produced from where you place the tax exempt lump sum. 

 

Trying to find an example of similar in English for a Thai company pension .scheme.

 

So the.question being "do I need to pay tax on my pension?" Expected logical  answer would perhaps be NO in the Thai pension context.(?)

 

 

 

 

We can always hope that will be the outcome, I certainly do. But pensions take so many different forms, its not exactly simple to see what is a pension and what isn't. UK State pension is easy, company pensions get slightly harder, annuities even harder whilst SIPP's are a nightmare, are they all intended to be free of tax?  

 

RMF's are free of tax if held for the minimum period, seven years as I recall, LTF's are the same. I cashed a LTF after 5 years and paid 5% tax. Those investment products are not age or work related, they are mutual funds that must be held for a minimum period and can be paid for from savings rather than income, not quite the same as a pension. Moving on:

 

Regardless of the eventual answer, I think we need to standardise the verbiage. Just because money received in Thailand is income to you, doesn't mean that it is income in the RD sense. I propose:

 

Remitted Funds - All money received in Thailand

Exempt Income - Remitted funds, exempt from assessment by virtue of the DTA or RD T&C's, eg savings.

Assessable Income - Non-exempt remitted income that is subject to TEDA (Tax Exemptions, Deductions and Allowances)

Taxable Income - Assessable income less TEDA, funds that are subjected to the Tax Tables.

 

Lastly, in light of yesterdays exchange about what is assessable income and the understanding that all income is assessable until it is not, let me once again put up our definition of Assessable Income to see whether or not it can be agreed:

 

"Assessable income in Thailand is any income that was remitted to Thailand and was earned after 1 January 2024, whilst tax resident and which is not exempted by the DTA between Thailand and your home country, or by the Thai RD". 

 

And this one: if anyone is going to a RD office for any reason, perhaps they can ask the simple question, does the Thai RD regard overseas pensions as assessable income?

 

Lastly and purely anecdotal:

 

Four years ago at the RD with my wife, whilst doing her business taxes, I asked if she could claim for the cost of my health insurance. The normally nice RD lady wasn't pleased at my question and became stern for a moment, her reply was, yes she can, but that would mean we have to look at all your overseas pension income. I didn't so they didn't! Which is one of the reasons why I don't think there's necessarily a blanket exclusion on overseas pensions by the RD.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

Another anecdote:

 

"A wealthy pensioner residing in Thailand for at least 180 days is subject to a tax rate under the new tax law. Pensions brought from their country of origin may not be subject to the law if the person can prove that they have been taxed prior to being transferred to Thailand". 

 

https://www.siam-legal.com/thailand-law/relationship-between-the-new-thai-tax-law-retirement-visa-holders-and-long-term-residency/#:~:text=A wealthy pensioner residing in,to being transferred to Thailand.

[Mike Lister]

And another, albeit from the Revenue itself:

 

2.1 Under Internal Regulations
In Thailand
In Thailand pension income is regarded as assessable income under Section
40 (1) of the Revenue Code. A resident of Thailand must declare his worldwide
income on the basis that the income received from abroad in a tax year must be
brought into Thailand within the same year, based on Section 41 paragraph 2 of the
Revenue Code. 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/Norwegian_answer.pdf

[Mike Lister]

And yet again:

 

Expatriates living in Thailand also raised concerns about unclear tax conditions on taxable foreign-sourced income. One point raised is whether the pension fund they receive from their home country’s government will also be taxed when remitting into Thailand. Under the new interpretation, the pension fund is likely to be considered income from a foreign source that is taxable if it is related to the employment or business of the taxpayer overseas. Therefore, if an expat receives a pension in 2024 from their work or business in the past, the pension will be taxable in the year that the expat remits income into Thailand.

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Thailand-Tax-Foreign-Income-Taxable-from-2024

[norbra]

Please find attached response from Australian Tax Office re aged pension tax liability

[Badrabbit]

2 hours ago, norbra said:

Please find attached response from Australian Tax Office re aged pension tax liability

Same for the UK I believe.

[The Cyclist]

17 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You see once again, you're holding out hope to readers

 

OK, as you appear to be unwilling to let anything go

 

Just 1 question

 

Why do we have DTA's ?