Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Thaindrew]

6 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

I believe that you're mistaken about that  ...  my UK Old-Age-Allowance definitely forms part of my taxable UK-arising income, or I wouldn't need to be making an annual-return to HMRC, and paying a trivial amount of UK-tax, every year.  My two minor private-pensions would not be sufficient to take me above the (currently frozen) Personal-Allowance.

 

Or by "Taxed Pension " do you mean something other-than the regular Old-Age-Allowance ?

pensions are taxable in the UK but with a threshold, the problem is that the Thai threshold is much lower at 150,000 Baht so you could be assessed for tax in the Uk and pay little or even no tax in the UK, but that means that Thailand could claim the difference as you couldn't prove you've paid tax on all if it based on their threshold - its going to depend on if they use "assessed for tax" or "paid tax" in their considerations.

[Mike Teavee]

3 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

I believe that you're mistaken about that  ...  my UK Old-Age-Allowance definitely forms part of my taxable UK-arising income, or I wouldn't need to be making an annual-return to HMRC, and paying a trivial amount of UK-tax, every year.  My two minor private-pensions would not be sufficient to take me above the (currently frozen) Personal-Allowance.

 

Or by "Taxed Pension " do you mean something other-than the regular Old-Age-Allowance ?

I was talking about the tax free lump sum that you can take when you start taking your Private (in my case Defined Benefits/Final Salary) Pension which can be up to 25% of the value of the pension.

 

State pension does count towards your personal taxation allowance and so any additional taxable income can take you over your PTA & you would be liable to tax on the excess.

 

 

 

[RafPinto]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

I can't see the benefit of getting one of these visas. Just leave 800k in a bank and pay 1900 baht a year, or pay the agents 15,000 baht a year. I know the latter is usually illegal, but nobody seems to care. 

 

You can't see the benefits?

A lump sum for a 10 year visa at 50,000Baht including multi re-entry permits.

 

Against:

10x1900 Baht visa renewal = 19000Baht

10x1000 Baht re-entry = 10000Baht (presuming it is a 1 re-entry permit only).

10x500 Baht taxi to and from airport (my case)= 5000Baht

Bank fee for statements: let's say 200x10=2000

Total expenses= 36000Baht

 

Interest at 1% on 800k= 8000Baht

8000x10=80,000Baht

TOTAL=80.000-36000 Baht expenses

44.000BAHT PLUS

 

LTR:

One off payment of 50,000Baht

Withdraw your 800k

 

Invested at 8%= 64000x10= 640000 baht

 

 

 

Against:

LTR: 50000-10(64000)= 590000 BAHT plus in your bank

 

LTR against one year visa:

590000-44000= 546000

 

I am not even talking about multi-entry fee.
Not talking of cost to visit your bank yearly for the paperwork.
Not talking about using an agent.

Not talking about 3 monthly reports.
Not talking about taking passport pictures 

 

and and and

 

For me, It was a no brainer to apply for the LTR.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by RafPinto

[cleopatra2]

10 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

pensions are taxable in the UK but with a threshold, the problem is that the Thai threshold is much lower at 150,000 Baht so you could be assessed for tax in the Uk and pay little or even no tax in the UK, but that means that Thailand could claim the difference as you couldn't prove you've paid tax on all if it based on their threshold - its going to depend on if they use "assessed for tax" or "paid tax" in their considerations.

For UK pensions payments are taxable in both states, with the exception of government pension.

Double taxation is eliminated by recieving credit from UK tax paid against any Thai tax due.

The new Thai Revenue instructions  does not change this.

[Neeranam]

3 minutes ago, RafPinto said:

You can't see the benefits?

A lump sum for a 10 year visa at 50,000Baht including multi re-entry permits.

 

Against:

10x1900 Baht visa renewal = 19000Baht

10x1000 Baht re-entry = 10000Baht (presuming it is a 1 re-entry permit only).

10x500 Baht taxi to and from airport (my case)= 5000Baht

Bank fee for statements: let's say 200x10=2000

Total expenses= 36000Baht

 

Interest at 1% on 800k= 8000Baht

8000x10=80,000Baht

TOTAL=80.000-36000 Baht expenses

44.000BAHT PLUS

 

LTR:

One off payment of 50,000Baht

Withdraw your 800k

 

Invested at 8%= 64000x10= 640000 baht

 

 

 

Against:

LTR: 50000-10(64000)= 590000 BAHT plus in your bank

 

LTR against one year visa:

590000-44000= 546000

 

 

 

 

I never knew you could get a 10 year visa for 50k. That's OK. 

[Neeranam]

3 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

For UK pensions payments are taxable in both states, with the exception of government pension.

Double taxation is eliminated by recieving credit from UK tax paid against any Thai tax due.

The new Thai Revenue instructions  does not change this.

So when I get my British pension, I won't have to pay tax on it if I live in Thailand? 

[Thaindrew]

8 minutes ago, RafPinto said:

You can't see the benefits?

A lump sum for a 10 year visa at 50,000Baht including multi re-entry permits.

 

Against:

10x1900 Baht visa renewal = 19000Baht

10x1000 Baht re-entry = 10000Baht (presuming it is a 1 re-entry permit only).

10x500 Baht taxi to and from airport (my case)= 5000Baht

Bank fee for statements: let's say 200x10=2000

Total expenses= 36000Baht

 

Interest at 1% on 800k= 8000Baht

8000x10=80,000Baht

TOTAL=80.000-36000 Baht expenses

44.000BAHT PLUS

 

LTR:

One off payment of 50,000Baht

Withdraw your 800k

 

Invested at 8%= 64000x10= 640000 baht

 

 

 

Against:

LTR: 50000-10(64000)= 590000 BAHT plus in your bank

 

LTR against one year visa:

590000-44000= 546000

 

I am not even talking about multi-entry fee.
Not talking of cost to visit your bank yearly for the paperwork.
Not talking about using an agent.

Not talking about 3 monthly reports.
Not talking about taking passport pictures 

 

and and and

 

For me, It was a no brainer to apply for the LTR.

 

 

LTR is a good option, but I find I can qualify for each of them apart from one sticking point in each ... like work for a company turning over $150M in 3 years ... or having $500K assets but you cannot include your villa as you cannot legally own the land ..... which version did you manage to get?

[RafPinto]

5 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I never knew you could get a 10 year visa for 50k. That's OK. 

You pay 50,000 the day you get your LTR visa stamp into your passport.
Initial stamp is for 5 years, renewable after 5 years for another 5 years.
Total cost 50k including multiple re-entry permits for the lifetime of the visa.

[circa02]

7 minutes ago, RafPinto said:

You can't see the benefits?

A lump sum for a 10 year visa at 50,000Baht including multi re-entry permits.

 

Against:

10x1900 Baht visa renewal = 19000Baht

10x1000 Baht re-entry = 10000Baht (presuming it is a 1 re-entry permit only).

10x500 Baht taxi to and from airport (my case)= 5000Baht

Bank fee for statements: let's say 200x10=2000

Total expenses= 36000Baht

 

Interest at 1% on 800k= 8000Baht

8000x10=80,000Baht

TOTAL=80.000-36000 Baht expenses

44.000BAHT PLUS

 

LTR:

One off payment of 50,000Baht

Withdraw your 800k

 

Invested at 8%= 64000x10= 640000 baht

 

 

 

Against:

LTR: 50000-10(64000)= 590000 BAHT plus in your bank

 

LTR against one year visa:

590000-44000= 546000

 

I am not even talking about multi-entry fee.
Not talking of cost to visit your bank yearly for the paperwork.
Not talking about using an agent.

Not talking about 3 monthly reports.
Not talking about taking passport pictures 

 

and and and

 

For me, It was a no brainer to apply for the LTR.

 

 

Where are you getting 8% outside of a gamble? Heck even the UK highest is around 6.2% but only for 12 month out. 10yr UAE US$ bond  (to match duration of your LTR) just oversubscribed 5x and that's a tad under 5% at advertised.  Not aware of any 8% investment that isn't classified as high risk or outright fraud (timeshare scam, property guaranteed rental deal, pattaya/nana bar stool IFAs). But also note your 1% and 8% would compound in a normal investment vehicle typically too/

[RafPinto]

5 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

LTR is a good option, but I find I can qualify for each of them apart from one sticking point in each ... like work for a company turning over $150M in 3 years ... or having $500K assets but you cannot include your villa as you cannot legally own the land ..... which version did you manage to get?

Wrong: if you go for the "wealthy pensioner visa: either 80k$ a year or 40k$ a year but must have for example a property here for at least 250k$

Can also be a house if you have a "30year lease on it"

[Dmitry2222]

How does this news correlate with double taxes elimination agreements?

"Thailand currently has concluded 61 double tax agreements with countries around the world."

 

Will Thailand voiding these agreements? If yes, then Thai business ready to pay doubled taxes?

Perhaps, if i pay taxes in my home country, then nothing will be changed in 2024.

[RafPinto]

1 minute ago, circa02 said:

Where are you getting 8% outside of a gamble? Heck even the UK highest is around 6.2% but only for 12 month out. 10yr UAE US$ bond  (to match duration of your LTR) just oversubscribed 5x and that's a tad under 5% at advertised.  Not aware of any 8% investment that isn't classified as high risk or outright fraud (timeshare scam, property guaranteed rental deal, pattaya/nana bar stool IFAs). But also note your 1% and 8% would compound in a normal investment vehicle typically too/

Not so difficult. There are a few FTSE 100 companies who pay 8% and plus a year dividend.
 

[mokwit]

4 minutes ago, circa02 said:

Where are you getting 8% outside of a gamble? Heck even the UK highest is around 6.2% but only for 12 month out. 10yr UAE US$ bond  (to match duration of your LTR) just oversubscribed 5x and that's a tad under 5% at advertised.  Not aware of any 8% investment that isn't classified as high risk or outright fraud (timeshare scam, property guaranteed rental deal, pattaya/nana bar stool IFAs). But also note your 1% and 8% would compound in a normal investment vehicle typically too/

Would tend to agree. End of life company with no growth paying out excess cash and that being reflected in the share price, also closed en funds benefiting from one time investment that will roll over or giving you your money back less fees.

 

Happy to be enlightened.

Edited September 20, 2023 by mokwit

[yang123]

1 hour ago, Foxx said:

As has been said before, the DTA does not cover personal or state pensions - they are (at least theoretically) taxable in both countries, so yes, they could.

 

Text of the current (1981) UK-Thai DTA here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/507424/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

 

Extract from Article 19 here:

 

(2) (a) Any pension paid by the Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable only in that State.

(b) However, such pension shall be taxable only in the other contracting State if the recipient is a national of and a resident of that State.

 

"Services of a governmental nature" seems to indicate that all UK civil service (central and local government employment-related pensions) might be exempt from the current proposals.

 

Article 24 Non-Discrimination reads:

"(1) The nationals of a Contracting State shall not be subjected in the other Contracting State to any taxation or any requirement connected therewith which is other or more burdensome than the taxation and connected requirements to which nationals of that other State in the same circumstances are or may be subjected.

 

 

 

[RafPinto]

1 minute ago, RafPinto said:

Not so difficult. There are a few FTSE 100 companies who pay 8% and plus a year dividend.
 

 

F ex:

 

BAT

Vod

LGEN

Aviva

Imperial Brands

Phoenix Groups Holdings

M&G

Taylor Whimpey

 

[cleopatra2]

17 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

So when I get my British pension, I won't have to pay tax on it if I live in Thailand? 

No I did not state that.

I stated that Uk pensions with the exception of government pensions are taxable in both states.

If your pension is a government pension then it is only taxable within UK ( with some further exceptions).

The UK state pension is not a government pension.

Edited September 20, 2023 by cleopatra2

[Thaindrew]

4 minutes ago, RafPinto said:

Wrong: if you go for the "wealthy pensioner visa: either 80k$ a year or 40k$ a year but must have for example a property here for at least 250k$

Can also be a house if you have a "30year lease on it"

$80K is a fairly hefty pension to be getting but not impossible for sure. But you also need to be retired for 2 years to apply as you need to show two years passive income at that level and I am about to retire.

[cleopatra2]

1 minute ago, yang123 said:

Text of the current (1981) UK-Thai DTA here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/507424/uk-thailand-dtc180281_-_in_force.pdf

 

Extract from Article 19 here:

 

(2) (a) Any pension paid by the Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable only in that State.

(b) However, such pension shall be taxable only in the other contracting State if the recipient is a national of and a resident of that State.

 

"Services of a governmental nature" seems to indicate that all UK civil service (central and local government employment-related pensions) might be exempt from the current proposals.

 

Article 24 Non-Discrimination reads:

"(1) The nationals of a Contracting State shall not be subjected in the other Contracting State to any taxation or any requirement connected therewith which is other or more burdensome than the taxation and connected requirements to which nationals of that other State in the same circumstances are or may be subjected.

 

 

 

This only applies to government pensions. 

Private and the state pension do not fall into this category.

[RafPinto]

9 minutes ago, circa02 said:

Where are you getting 8% outside of a gamble? Heck even the UK highest is around 6.2% but only for 12 month out. 10yr UAE US$ bond  (to match duration of your LTR) just oversubscribed 5x and that's a tad under 5% at advertised.  Not aware of any 8% investment that isn't classified as high risk or outright fraud (timeshare scam, property guaranteed rental deal, pattaya/nana bar stool IFAs). But also note your 1% and 8% would compound in a normal investment vehicle typically too/

Imagine you compound your 8% paying dividends.

In 8 years, your invested money is doubled.

 

For ex.: My biggest investment has increase dividend by 5% the last few years and has already stated that it will continue to do so for the next 2 years.

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by RafPinto

[mran66]

2 hours ago, rabas said:

From reading the rules, I suspect only lump sums that were taxable income prior to 2023, and, the taxee was tax resident in Thailand in the year the income was earned overseas.

 

2023 earnings are not exempt because tax has always been assessed on income brought in during the year it is earned, for Thai and foreigners.

 

IOW, there are no new taxes, they only closed a well known loophole. That was income earned overseas, while tax resident in Thailand, was only taxable if brought into Thailand in the year it was earned. Now, it is taxable any year you bring it in, if, you earned it while a tax resident in Thailand.   

 

 

I experienced this a few years ago when I sold a valuable coin collection at auction in China, as a Thai tax resident with a retirement visa and no tax ID. I called the Revenue Dept and ask what to do.

 

They explained all tax residents must pay personal income tax on earnings from overseas, but only if brought in in the year it is earned, and only on the earnings (profit) not the sale price. They then suggested I wait and bring the money in the year after the earnings are realized, in which case it was no longer taxable.

 

All Thailand has done is remove that "wait till next year and it's not taxable" loophole.

 

 

Your case can act as good illustration for the challenge of the proposed new policy, especially if you would have only sold part of your collection, every coin separately as different trades, some at loss some at profit, under the proposed new policy

 

Current policy is fairly straightforward to understand and execute. The real question with the proposed new interpretation of the law is how they set the guidelines to define which part of the funds you bring to Thailand is profit and which part is principal, especially so in case of people who own and have owned and sold many stocks, shares, bonds etc, some with hefty profit, some at loss, and some generating dividend or interest.

 

If the amount of money imported is just a fraction of my total wealth, or even a fraction of the profit/earning I made, how to define the taxable amount? At the end, it is all just one pool of monetary unit valued property, including the cash sitting on bank account as result of many transactions.

 

Can people just show receipt of one stock sale and  state that they sent the amount worth the original purchase price, leaving the profit part outside of thailand, and forgetting all other stocks  and other assets the person sold? Or they assume 100% of the incoming cash is profit from somewhere? Or assume that the same percentage of the total sent amount is profit as was the total portfolio earnings on last tax year? How about if I send funds receieved from selling something at a loss? So many questions.

 

The proposed regulation opens a big can of worms for execution, and requires well defined rules for calculating/defining profit/earnings, and devil is really in the that definition rules for the taxable amount, especially so on separation of what is earning and what is principal for funds sent out,

 

If e.g your total net worth at the end of 2023 is defined as principal, and no funds sent are taxable until that amount is exceeded, and everything exceeding that amount would be taxable, that would be simple (and good for farang).  

 

As usual, officials have just announced a policy without having any thoughts about issues of its implenmentation

 

Just need to wait and see

Edited September 20, 2023 by mran66

[RafPinto]

2 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

$80K is a fairly hefty pension to be getting but not impossible for sure. But you also need to be retired for 2 years to apply as you need to show two years passive income at that level and I am about to retire.

Doesn't need to be a pension. Can be passive income like rental income, dividend payments etc.

[RafPinto]

3 minutes ago, Thaindrew said:

$80K is a fairly hefty pension to be getting but not impossible for sure. But you also need to be retired for 2 years to apply as you need to show two years passive income at that level and I am about to retire.

No again:

 

You do not have to be retired. Can be done from age 50.

Can be retirement income or rental income, dividends etc.

 

Plus you have the option of income of 40K$ plus investing  250$ in real estate here. Either a condo or house on a 30 year lease for the land.

[Neeranam]

11 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

No I did not state that.

I stated that Uk pensions with the exception of government pensions are taxable in both states.

If your pension is a government pension then it is only taxable within UK ( with some further exceptions).

The UK state pension is not a government pension.

So I have to pay tax on my state pension if I live in Thailand?

Even if I do, the allowances I have will make the amount 0. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Neeranam

[circa02]

7 minutes ago, RafPinto said:

Imagine you compound your 8% paying dividends.

In 8 years, your invested money is doubled.

Not quite, 8% compounds to 1.85x multiplier, but okay close enough, importunately your dividends are far from guaranteed, highly unlikely a basket like that you will average 8% consistently over 10 years, you also need to take into consideration that your principle is at risk, in case of Aviva you've lost 40% if you look at 60 months performance.  Sure there are mitigation strategies with a basket of equities or via ETF,  but you don't have 8% investment there, might of averaged that last year, this year is unknown unlike a savings account. You're comparing a 1% savings income against a volatile portfolio of equities, not quite a fair comparison, but good luck nonetheless.

Edited September 20, 2023 by circa02

[yang123]

14 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

This only applies to government pensions. 

Private and the state pension do not fall into this category.

Agree - pensions deriving from employment by Central and Local Government appear to be exempt.

That may be a problem for those who rely on Private and State Pension income ☹️

Edited September 20, 2023 by yang123
.

[Neeranam]

3 minutes ago, circa02 said:

Not quite, 8% compounds to 1.85x multiplier, but okay close enough, importunately your dividends are far from guaranteed, highly unlikely a basket like that you will average 8% consistently over 10 years, you also need to take into consideration that your principle is at risk, in case of Aviva you've lost 40%  if you look at 60 months performance.  Sure their are mitigation strategies with a basket of equities or via ETF,  but you don't have 8% investment there, might of average that last year, this year is unknown unlike a savings account. You're comparing a 1% savings income against a volatile portfolio of equities, not quite fair compassion, but good luck nonetheless.

8% is not much. Now, I get 19% by holding my Polkadot in Nova, a non-custodial wallet. 

[mokwit]

2 minutes ago, circa02 said:

in case of Aviva you've lost 40% if you look at 60 months performance.

This is what I mean by 'being reflected in the share price'. When you see that kind of yield you often see a 50% capital loss. If you wanted to get all theoretical the market is pricing in what the dividend will be, not what it currently is, and hence the current high yield.

[mokwit]

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

8% is not much. Now, I get 19% by holding my Polkadot in Nova, a non-custodial wallet. 

Do you think that is sustainable?. Perhaps you can tell us HOW 19% that return is generated. Also WHY are they paying out that much when returns are lower elsewhere?

Edited September 20, 2023 by mokwit

[Thaindrew]

10 minutes ago, RafPinto said:

No again:

 

You do not have to be retired. Can be done from age 50.

Can be retirement income or rental income, dividends etc.

 

Plus you have the option of income of 40K$ plus investing  250$ in real estate here. Either a condo or house on a 30 year lease for the land.

RETIREES AGED 50 YEARS AND OLDER WHO HAVE AN ANNUAL PENSION OR STABLE PASSIVE INCOME

you have to be retired for the wealthy pensioner LTR and thats the only one you can do $40K plus $250K

 

Global citizen need the $500K invested

Work from Thailand LTR need to work for a company with turnover of $150M over 3 years thats limiting factor to many

 

[RafPinto]

5 minutes ago, circa02 said:

Not quite, 8% compounds to 1.85x multiplier, but okay close enough, importunately your dividends are far from guaranteed, highly unlikely a basket like that you will average 8% consistently over 10 years, you also need to take into consideration that your principle is at risk, in case of Aviva you've lost 40% if you look at 60 months performance.  Sure there are mitigation strategies with a basket of equities or via ETF,  but you don't have 8% investment there, might of averaged that last year, this year is unknown unlike a savings account. You're comparing a 1% savings income against a volatile portfolio of equities, not quite a fair comparison, but good luck nonetheless.

True.

For this reason I invest for the long term.
LGEN for example a very reliable dividend payer which increase the last few years dividend by 5% and have already stated to do this for the next 2 years. Didn't cut dividend  even during Covid.

Strong brand name.
Yes, share price is down but that's because now banking and insurance companies are not the flavour of the month.

Buying now pays around 8,5 % dividend.

If share price goes down and dividend pay date, I get more share for my money.

 

Was the same with my other heavy invest which I never sold.
From 24£ down to 9£ during Covid and now close to 26£ again.
Dividend around 4%

 

Invest for the long term and if dividends not needed to be withdrawn, reinvest and compound.
Just the dividend they pay at the moment compounded repays your investment in 8.xx years.
If they continue to increase the dividend at 5%, your principal is re-payed much earlier.

 

I'm happy to hold them for a very long time and now considering to sell my Shell investment at we are not far from all-time high, paying 4% dividend.
LGEN, once again in flavour has an upside potential of 30% plus and the juicy dividend of 8% plus.

 

Investing longterm and not gambling short term is my politics.