Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

21 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I don't think anybody is packing their bags just yet, but (IMHO) it is prudent to have at least an idea of what you will do should any changes cause you a problem (I.e. Hope for the Best, Plan for the Worst). 

 

I have no confidence in any changes being implemented smoothly so can only see it being kicked down the road OR causing chaos, so my simple plan for next year is to bring in no more than the 235K tax free element (60K Personal Allowance, 25K for Health Insurance & 150K at 0% rate) & simply spend down what I already have here (I keep 2-3 years spends in-country so can do the same in 2025 if necessary).  

 

My "Worse Case" plan for bringing in the capital gains from the sale of house in the UK AND/OR the tax free lump sum from my pension is to spend < 180days in Thailand in 2026... This might seem extreme to some, but obviously the potential tax on 2 largish lump sums could be significant so not only would this give me the perfect excuse to travel, effectively I would be saving money by doing so.

 

Once I've brought over the lump sums I am hoping to switch to the LTR visa which would (according to current "knowledge") make me exempt from the tax changes so would carry on as normal bringing last year's income over, should I not get this Visa or it not make me exempt then I would (hopefully) know a lot more by then & plan accordingly, but leaving Thailand permanently is not one of my plans. 

 

There it is No Fear, No Panic, No Tantrums, just a clear (in my head) plan for what I'm going to do for the next 2-3 years.

 

 

At least one poster has told us several times a day, every day for the past two months, how he and his wife will go back to Oz so I'm sure that by now his bag must be at least half packed. :)

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

There it is No Fear, No Panic, No Tantrums, just a clear (in my head) plan for what I'm going to do for the next 2-3 years.

 

You're a funny guy

 

Just have a read back over the last 145 pages and you will find hundreds of posts containing fear, speculation and tantrums.

 

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

Once I've brought over the lump sums I am hoping to switch to the LTR visa which would (according to current "knowledge") make me exempt from the tax changes

 

The original announcement stated that foreigners from Countries with a DTA with Thailand would be exempt from these changes..

 

Which is no different to @Dogmatix Singapore gripe. The wording might be slightly different, but the end result will be the same.

 

The paragraph has been posted multiple times across various threads, so it would be a fair assumption to think that most people have seen it.

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

You're a funny guy

 

Just have a read back over the last 145 pages and you will find hundreds of posts containing fear, speculation and tantrums.

Sorry, I'd assumed it was a given but to clarify... I have No Fear, No Panic & am not having any Tantrums... OMMV "Other's Mileage May Vary", Ironically I originally added YMMV to the end of my post, but took it out as I thought it might have come across as aggressive towards @Mike Listerwhich I certainly wasn't trying to be.

 

I was just trying to get the point across that people should maybe think about what they would do should things turn out for the worse & not bury their heads in the sand waiting for everything to be crystal clear as by then they may have already been negatively impacted - To Me that doesn't mean they're "Panicking", it's just the sensible thing to do, but that probably comes from my background in IT where we had to do contingency planning for everything we did. 

 

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

The original announcement stated that foreigners from Countries with a DTA with Thailand would be exempt from these changes..

    

But what does that mean in real terms?

 

There is a world of difference between what that statement appears to say (i.e. anybody from a country that has a DTA with Thailand will be exempt - What I hope for) & what the likely reality is (anybody from a country that has a DTA with Thailand & has paid taxes on income covered by that DTA will be treated in accordance with what's contained in that DTA) - Which is what I'm trying to plan for. 

 

I believe you're from the UK & if you've read the UK DTA it's a clear as mud what that means for the likes of Pensions, Dividends, Rental Income, Capital Gains etc... So I've decided on a very simple "Plan" for what I'm going to do until things are clear & then a couple of options for what I'm going to do should that clarity cause me problems, none of these options involve me packing my bags & moving elsewhere (certainly not back to the UK), but a very real option (& 1 I'm excited about as I love to Travel) is to spend 6 months outside of Thailand while I sort my lump sums out).  

 

I think most of us share the same "Plan" for the 1st part i.e. Bring as much cash as you can before 1/1/24 & minimum cash after that until things are clearer,  I just like to have some sort of "Plan" for what I'll do once I get that clarity (lol, knowing Thailand I'm probably in for a very long wait so will add a Plan Z... Die before then).

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[beammeup]

Just ignore him. My plan is very similar.

Edited November 29, 2023 by beammeup

[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

My "Worse Case" plan for bringing in the capital gains from the sale of house in the UK 

Wouldn't pay that tax in the UK?

[Ricardo]

35 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I think most of us share the same "Plan" for the 1st part i.e. Bring as much cash as you can before 1/1/24 & minimum cash after that until things are clearer,  I just like to have some sort of "Plan" for what I'll do once I get that clarity (lol, knowing Thailand I'm probably in for a very long wait so will add a Plan Z... Die before then).

 

 

I agree 100%, and am doing the same thing, with just one additional-action  ...  I am switching immediately, from monthly-transfers to support my retirement-extensions, to B800k in-the-bank before 1/1/24.

 

I am also now describing all bank-transfers henceforth as "UK-Taxed Pensions", and may well make a Gift (by bank-transfer) to my wife's account  ...  and carrying more Cash into Thailand as well, when travelling.  Every little bit helps !

 

Minimise your visible exposure, never a bad strategy !  

[Mike Teavee]

21 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Wouldn't pay that tax in the UK?

I would have to pay Capital Gains Tax (I'm guesstimating 18%) as I've been Non UK Tax Resident for so long, other guys who maintain residency in the UK would have no CGT to pay if the house remained their "Primary Residency" (i.e. They've never rented it out). 

 

But even though I will pay tax in the UK, it's unclear how the Thai Revenue department would view this.... They could

1. Say I've already paid CGT so nothing more to pay
2. Say although I've paid CGT, the rate in Thailand is Income Tax rates so I need to pay the difference (For arguments sake let's say it's all in the Higher Rate Band so 35% - 18% = 17%).
3. Say yes you've paid CGT in the UK so give us the 35% & we'll give you a Tax Credit to offset future CGT tax in the UK [Which would be of no use to me as the only thing I'm liable for CGT on in the UK is my UK Home].

This is where the "Clarity" is needed before I fully decide what I'm going to do, key thing for me is to have some idea of what I'm going to do once I get that "Clarity". 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[marino28]

That’s also my understanding.

 

everything that is done before 01-01-2024 is not subject to tax even if remitted after that date.

 

so maybe the best time to bring in the money are the first days of January 2024. 
 

 

[marino28]

16 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

I have a practical question about the implications of the new order P 162/2566.  I was planning to remit some funds before the end of the year but but these are old savings for which I have no records of tax being paid.  The remitting account has also received some income during this year.  So I was concerned the remittance could be interpreted as this year's income, if they adopt a LIFO approach.  I assume that P 162/2566 may only be applicable from 1 Jan 2024 and that anything remitted before year end 2023 is taxable, if income deemed to have arisen in the same tax year under old interpretation.  So, if it is remitted at beginning of Jan 2024, it is too early to be deemed as arising in 2024 and no income came into account yet in 2024.  It is also covered by the P 162/2566 exemption for pre-2024 income.  Am I missing something?

That’s also my understanding.

 

everything that is done before 01-01-2024 is not subject to tax even if remitted after that date.

 

so maybe the best time to bring in the money are the first days of January 2024. 
 

[The Cyclist]

48 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

But what does that mean in real terms?

 

What it means to me, and others are free to agree or disagree, is that if you are from a Country that has a DTA with Thailand, and are remitting income that has already been taxed in the other Country  it will not be taxed again in Thailand.

 

If you happen to be using loopholes to avoid paying tax in the other Country, then it is possible / probable that you will be nabbed to pay tax in Thailand.

 

How the workings of that pans out, has yet to be announced and we will have to wait and see.

 

It could be

 

* A blanket exemption, but subject to individuals being audited.

 

* It could mean going and getting a TIN and filing a tax returm

 

56 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I believe you're from the UK & if you've read the UK DTA it's a clear as mud what that means for the likes of Pensions,

 

Yes, I am and I have. The UK - Thai DTA is crystal clear on pensions.

 

That is why my Government pension will continue to be remitted to Thailand after the 1st January, my Private pension will go to my UK account until I get clarity.

 

Having said that. I still do not think that Thailand will try and tax income that has already been taxed in the UK.

 

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

I was just trying to get the point across that people should maybe think about what they would do should things turn out for the worse & not bury their heads in the sand waiting for everything to be crystal clear 

 

Nothing wrong with that. Is there any real need for people to splash speculation iall over multiple threads as if it were fact ?
 

Speculation is not fact and does not actually help anybody.

[Neeranam]

9 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

But even though I will pay tax in the UK, it's unclear how the Thai Revenue department would view this.... They could

1. Say I've already paid CGT so nothing more to pay
2. Say although I've paid CGT, the rate in Thailand is Income Tax rates so I need to pay the difference (For arguments sake let's say it's all in the Higher Rate Band so 35% - 18% = 17%).
3. Say yes you've paid CGT in the UK so give us the 35% & we'll give you a Tax Credit to offset future CGT tax in the UK [Which would be of no use to me as the only thing I'm liable for CGT on in the UK is my UK Home].

If you pay tax in the Uk, you won't pay tax in Thailand. This new rules is focused on Thais with foreign income that they  are not paying tax on already. I wouldn't be concerned at all, if I were you. Me, on the other hand have a lot of concerns as I get paid by a British company and a German company.

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

t's just the sensible thing to do, but that probably comes from my background in IT where we had to do contingency planning for everything we did. 

 

Forgot this part above.

 

Did your contingency planning not go something like this ?
 

1. Gather the facts

 

2. Assess the fact

 

3. Formulate a plan

 

4. Execute the plan.

 

Points 2, 3 and 4 are a waste of time and effort until point 1 is nailed down.

 

Guess it all depends where you learned your contingency planning.

[Mike Teavee]

 

 

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Yes, I am and I have. The UK - Thai DTA is crystal clear on pensions.

 

That is why my Government pension will continue to be remitted to Thailand after the 1st January, my Private pension will go to my UK account until I get clarity.

 

Having said that. I still do not think that Thailand will try and tax income that has already been taxed in the UK.

 

You're fortunate in that the UK-TH DTA is very clear on Government Pensions but as you say, it's less clear on other Pensions (Including State Pension) so you don't know whether there will be additional tax to pay on it (Like you I don't believe there will be according to Rule 5 of the RD's FAQ) BUT you are taking action to minimize any impact to you until you get the "Clarity"     

 

This is exactly what I'm doing with my income, Rental/Dividend & Capital Gains from the sale of my UK House which aren't clear in the DTA... I hope things will be much clearer in 26 months when I start to receive my Private Pensions! 

  

[Neeranam]

Just had a thought, I could change my Thai name, then gift myself money from my UK/German bank accounts

[The Cyclist]

7 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

You're fortunate in that the UK-TH DTA is very clear on Government Pensions but as you say, it's less clear on other Pensions (Including State Pension) so you don't know whether there will be additional tax to pay on it

 

I know there will be no additional tax on my State Pension.

 

1. Because I am not old enough to claim it.

 

2. It would also be taxed in the UK, so unlikely to be taxed again in Thailand

 

10 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

BUT you are taking action to minimize any impact to you until you get the "Clarity"     

 

Sure, it would be pretty stupid not to.

 

That doesn't mean that any action I take to minimise any impact should be taken as gospel that something is going to happen for a fact.

 

I have said it often enough on this thread. If you are remitting money to Thailand that you could have difficulty in proving that tax has been paid on it, stop remitting in the short term, until clarity is gained.

 

What eejits should not be doing is saying that they are doing X,Y or Z because it will be taxed in Thailand. Of course, those who are avoiding taxes due to various loopholes might be in a different boat.

[Mike Teavee]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Forgot this part above.

 

Did your contingency planning not go something like this ?
 

1. Gather the facts

 

2. Assess the fact

 

3. Formulate a plan

 

4. Execute the plan.

 

Points 2, 3 and 4 are a waste of time and effort until point 1 is nailed down.

 

Guess it all depends where you learned your contingency planning.

 

That's a pretty simplified way of looking at it & might work for a  "6 Man / 6 Month" project but you never have all the facts at the start of a large (Multi year / 100's Million GBP) projects so you plan for what you know and create, manage, maintain a risk/issues register to try to plan for contingencies based on risks/issues you can reasonably perceive.

 

 

You can never plan for everything...  A classic example was the Pakistan Government deciding it was going to unilaterally switch to day light savings time in 3 days time whilst I was in the middle of rolling out the Desktop/Server estate there for a Global Bank

... but you can plan for something... We knew there was a risk of something like this happening so built in a mechanism where we could tweak local desktop settings & switched the time zone to Bangladesh & back again a few weeks later when they changed their minds.  

 

 

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

That's a pretty simplified way of looking at it

 

Yes it is, because the more simple it is the easier it is for everyone to understand and act on.

 

A big fan of the KISS it principle

 

Which is why I believe that income from Countries with a DTA in Thailand will be exempt  ( Providing it has already been taxed of course )

 

They will keep it simple and focus on incomes that have not been taxed.

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

27 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

I know there will be no additional tax on my State Pension.

 

1. Because I am not old enough to claim it.

 

2. It would also be taxed in the UK, so unlikely to be taxed again in Thailand

 

I agree, it's highly unlikely State Pension will be taxed in Thailand, I think (hope) that the RD will recognise that it's already been Taxed (albeit at 0%) & so consider it fully Tax Paid, (TBH I haven't thought much about SP as I'm 110 months away from being able to claim it & even I don't plan that far out!!!)

 

I personally believe they will do this for all Pensions where you can provide a statement of benefits/tax paid or maybe a Tax Return showing you've paid the tax, but again we can't be 100% sure so can only try to plan for what we're going to do if they do start taxing it. 

 

This is why I think that most guys have little to worry about, as I keep saying my main concern is the money from the sale of my house & the Lump Sum from my Private Pension so these are the things that I'm trying to plan options for. 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

This is why I think that most guys have little to worry about, as I keep saying my main concern is the money from the sale of my house & the Lump Sum from my Private Pension so these are the things that I'm trying to plan options for. 

 

My lump sum from my Private Pension stayed in the UK, the monthly pension came to Thailand. This was 2020, long before the current hullabaloo

 

7 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

I personally believe they will do this for all Pensions where you can provide a statement of benefits/tax paid or maybe a Tax Return showing you've paid the tax,

 

Both my pensions send P60's and Statement of future payments.

 

The Statement of future payments show the monthly payment and the amount of tax deducted.

 

I'm sure you know what info is included on a P60.

 

I asked on this forum if The DWP sent out P60's for the State Pension and apparently they don't.

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

If you pay tax in the Uk, you won't pay tax in Thailand. This new rules is focused on Thais with foreign income that they  are not paying tax on already. I wouldn't be concerned at all, if I were you. Me, on the other hand have a lot of concerns as I get paid by a British company and a German company.

I hope (& think) you're right but my plan is to do nothing until I know for sure & if worse comes to the worse, bring the money over in 2026 when I plan on being non-tax resident for the year.

 

Presumably you're already paying Tax in UK / Germany on your income so wouldn't it be better for you to be Taxed in Thailand where the taxes are lower? 

 

When I was a UK Bank Employee on secondment in Singapore, both charged me Income Tax but I was able to show to HMRC that I'd already been taxed on the Income in Singapore & so got a full Tax Refund of the Income tax Paid in the UK (Which was nice :D ) 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[Neeranam]

33 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I hope (& think) you're right but my plan is to do nothing until I know for sure & if worse comes to the worse, bring the money over in 2026 when I plan on being non-tax resident for the year.

 

Presumably you're already paying Tax in UK / Germany on your income so wouldn't it be better for you to be Taxed in Thailand where the taxes are lower? 

 

When I was a UK Bank Employee on secondment in Singapore, both charged me Income Tax but I was able to show to HMRC that I'd already been taxed on the Income in Singapore & so got a full Tax Refund of the Income tax Paid in the UK (Which was nice :D ) 

 

 

It's complicated as my company was recently acquired and I am still paying tax in the USA. They haven't told us yet if any changes will happen. I plan to use my British salary to give my daughter studying at uni in UK(tax free) and pay the foreign student fees :( , hopefully as an allowance.  Another kid is studying accountancy in Thailand, I need her to finsh quickly!

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Neeranam

[tomkenet]

3 hours ago, marino28 said:

 

That’s also my understanding.

 

everything that is done before 01-01-2024 is not subject to tax even if remitted after that date.

 

so maybe the best time to bring in the money are the first days of January 2024. 
 

I believe there is no time limit to when you can transfer that money as long as you have documents  showing them originating from prior 2024. Interest on the account might however be subject to tax.

[bugger bognor]

Still the delusional scaremongering continues nothing is going to happen for years your moaning and whining is hilarious to me I can understand our very dim USA citizens who seem to be obsessed with doing everything by the book! The reality  this is Thailand ain't nothing gonna change anytime soon rest assured and get back to drinking and shagging 

[stat]

On 11/28/2023 at 8:54 AM, Guderian said:

It might have been asked and answered here already, but there's too many pages to search through. Does anyone know if other SEA countries, like Cambodia and the Philippines, are doing the same thing as Thailand?

Philippines are hassle free AFAIK, no tax to be paid as long as you are not working and not a philippine by nationality. Cambodia is a nightmare in theory tax wise, no idea however if they are enforcing their own laws. Would be interesting if a forum member could clarify what goes on in real life in cambodia tax wise.

[UKresonant]

Just now, Mike Teavee said:

I hope (& think) you're right but my plan is to do nothing until I know for sure & if worse comes to the worse, bring the money over in 2026 when I plan on being non-tax resident for the year.

 

Presumably you're already paying Tax in UK / Germany on your income so wouldn't it be better for you to be Taxed in Thailand where the taxes are lower? 

 

When I was a UK Bank Employee on secondment in Singapore, both charged me Income Tax but I was able to show to HMRC that I'd already been taxed on the Income in Singapore & so got a full Tax Refund of the Income tax Paid in the UK (Which was nice :D ) 

 

 

I see Singapore - UK DTA would do what they did on your income, for non Government pensions / state pensions as well "full relief". Where as with the Thai -UK DTA it looks like HMRC would not refund "no relief". so totally reliant on being able to deduct UK Tax  paid from a Thai-RD return and Thai RD accepting that? 

[huyuli]

On 11/28/2023 at 8:27 AM, Mike Lister said:

Indeed, otherwise somebody will suspect you are working here illegally.

Good point, Mike. If the amount I fill in the tax return is too small, it would look suspicious as it would be inadequate to cover my living expenses.

[beammeup]

4 hours ago, huyuli said:

Good point, Mike. If the amount I fill in the tax return is too small, it would look suspicious as it would be inadequate to cover my living expenses.

Why? maybe you have sufficient savings in your Thai account. Or you have a stash of gold bars.

[beammeup]

They need to realize that if they tax expats, they will not stay. Paying tax in the west usually means free heath care, school for kids, safe roads and highways, Beautiful parks and recreation areas. A welfare system to fall back on if needed. Free tennis courts football fields playgrounds etc...

[quake]

22 hours ago, bugger bognor said:

Still the delusional scaremongering continues nothing is going to happen for years your moaning and whining is hilarious to me I can understand our very dim USA citizens who seem to be obsessed with doing everything by the book! The reality  this is Thailand ain't nothing gonna change anytime soon rest assured and get back to drinking and shagging 

 

You need to watch out for those cheap chinese, knock-off Crystal Balls.

They can catch you out some times.

 

 

 

[scottiejohn]

1 hour ago, quake said:

 

You need to watch out for those cheap chinese, knock-off Crystal Balls.

They can catch you out some times.

 

 

 

I thought TAT had bought them all and had exclusive rights!