Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Trippy]

I hope it doesn't come to this, but I can see immigration starting a no tax return, no LT visa issued. All the responsibility will be on the ex-pat. 

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Great. If RD does that, they will find that the credit card user lives in the USA, and therefore is not me.

Carrying this nonsense to its logical conclusion, if we absolutely must......so RD sees that person A, using card number X, bought an elephant in Thailand and asks if there were any other transactions also, maybe yes, maybe no. But since an elephant is a big ticket item and RD is concerned about financial impropriety and evasion, it asks Immi to run your name and birth date (both known at this stage) and Immi says, yep, we got a Mr A, born on that date and BTW, he has a long stay visa. Hmm says RD, I wonder, did he ever file a tax return.....whoa, he didn't, best get out the sherlock holmes kits, alert SWAT plus we'll need some rubber gloves.

[samtam]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Carrying this nonsense to its logical conclusion, if we absolutely must......so RD sees that person A, using card number X, bought an elephant in Thailand and asks if there were any other transactions also, maybe yes, maybe no. But since an elephant is a big ticket item and RD is concerned about financial impropriety and evasion, it asks Immi to run your name and birth date (both known at this stage) and Immi says, yep, we got a Mr A, born on that date and BTW, he has a long stay visa. Hmm says RD, I wonder, did he ever file a tax return.....whoa, he didn't, best get out the sherlock holmes kits, alert SWAT plus we'll need some rubber gloves.

 

And a re-enactment scene, with finger pointing.

[Yumthai]

3 minutes ago, Trippy said:

I hope it doesn't come to this, but I can see immigration starting a no tax return, no LT visa issued. All the responsibility will be on the ex-pat. 

You can hold a LT visa being non resident for tax purposes in Thailand (staying less than 180 days/year).

 

Do you mean that staying 180+ days per year in Thailand will become a mandatory requirement in order to get a LT visa?

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, samtam said:

 

And a re-enactment scene, with finger pointing.

....and calls to the IRS to see is he filed a non-resident return or indeed, filed a return at all. This is the cue to mobilise Homeland Security, the FBI and probably Delta Force to do an extract.

[Trippy]

1 minute ago, Yumthai said:

You can hold a LT visa being non resident for tax purposes in Thailand (staying less than 180 days/year).

 

Do you mean that staying 180+ days per year in Thailand will become a mandatory requirement in order to get a LT visa?

No, I mean that all proof will be the the ex-pats responsibility no matter the situation. The question might arise, if your going to stay less than 180 days, then why do you need a non-imm visa?

[Danderman123]

29 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Carrying this nonsense to its logical conclusion, if we absolutely must......so RD sees that person A, using card number X, bought an elephant in Thailand and asks if there were any other transactions also, maybe yes, maybe no. But since an elephant is a big ticket item and RD is concerned about financial impropriety and evasion, it asks Immi to run your name and birth date (both known at this stage) and Immi says, yep, we got a Mr A, born on that date and BTW, he has a long stay visa. Hmm says RD, I wonder, did he ever file a tax return.....whoa, he didn't, best get out the sherlock holmes kits, alert SWAT plus we'll need some rubber gloves.

So, a series of smaller purchases using a foreign credit card should be okay.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, Danderman123 said:

So, a series of smaller purchases using a foreign credit card should be okay.

Small elephants, maybe, but the elephant protection league may have something to say.

 

But of course if enough smaller purchases over a long enough period of time and your card issuer will start asking questions, I believe we already had that discussion, did we not.

[Danderman123]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Small elephants, maybe, but the elephant protection league may have something to say.

 

But of course if enough smaller purchases over a long enough period of time and your card issuer will start asking questions, I believe we already had that discussion, did we not.

I have used credit cards in Thailand for many years. My bank has not had any questions.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

I have used credit cards in Thailand for many years. My bank has not had any questions.

Good, I hope that continues, not everyone has had the same good fortune however.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

14 hours ago, UKresonant said:

 

That would be a good clarification for Thai RD to put out even if they said below 2 million THB pension or similar. It would perhaps save them a lot of non-yielding, can't see the wood for the trees effort.  Then not inflicting much stress and anxiety on many. Also void potential cutbacks of inward remittance from sources they imply are not their intended targets anyway.

 

Would be better than the DTA don't worry generalisation possibly 

You are right and it is becoming more and more of a worry as the time goes by.

 

I have stated several times in this thread that I am extremely dissappointed that the Thai Govt has not done anything 'positive' in response to this situation created by the Thai RD.  They could have at least said they recognise the worries this is causing to Expats in Thailand, and that the interpretation and implementation of this new rue change will soon be clarified.  But they have not - the PM made a public statement that he agrees with this rule change and that they are going to go ahead - I know he was referring to rich Thais avoiding taxes, but what about all the other groups affected, including us.  The Thai RD has released two media statements that actually do not address the situation for Expats - and they were both very bland and not 'on point'. 

 

That is what worries me more and more - the Thai Govt and RD are not providing any clear resolution to the clear and obvious problems Expats have with this change. Things like - Is my Pension taxable income (as it stands now, it is income) and what do I have to do to not have to pay income tax on my Pension (as it stands now, it means lodging a tax return and claiming under DTA that it is not taxable in Thailand). And there are many other situations that arise - but answers are not being given.  I think and hope it is just incompetence - and that they do not want to tax Expats who bring money into Thailand.

    

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I have stated several times in this thread that I am extremely dissappointed that the Thai Govt has not done anything 'positive' in response to this situation created by the Thai RD.

 

The Thai RD that act on the instructions of the Govt.

 

Governments in the main do not give a monkeys left testicle for people, other than how much they can screw out of them in tax ( direct & indirect ) and what freebies they will have to throw them in an attempt to get re-elected.

 

10 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

The Thai RD has released two media statements that actually do not address the situation for Expats

 

We are not much more than tolerated by the Government, why would you expect them to go out of their way to address every single factor that might affect ex-pats. Which this thread shows are infinite and never ending

 

Ahhhh but, but, but, whatabout ( insert your own whatabout )

 

There is enough information floating around to take the steps neccessary to limit your exposure to Thai income tax. 

 

If in doubt, do not remit   ( or belt it in every day over the next week )

[jerrymahoney]

2 hours ago, jacko45k said:

They are going to cross reference every single foreign ATM card transaction in Thailand with some retirement extension (or TM30 or Tm47) database? It seems formidable and unlikely.  My only thought is if they can get foreign banks to give details of customers holding accounts registered to a Thailand address. Again, strikes me as difficult. 

Howzabout with facial recognition -- every ATM machine in Thailand has a video recoding of the transaction ( I believe)

 

And Immigration has phots linked to passport from their offices and at the airports of entry.

Edited December 23, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[Danderman123]

33 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Good, I hope that continues, not everyone has had the same good fortune however.

Those people who have had problems using foreign credit cards in Thailand probably won't be using those credit cards as a means of reducing exposure to RD.

 

For the rest of us, if we need tax free financial resources in Thailand, foreign credit cards seem one way to go. I certainly will pay for purchases on Lazada with foreign credit cards, and will only use my Thai bank account for purchases where I cannot use a foreign card.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Danderman123

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

Those people who have had problems using foreign credit cards in Thailand probably won't be using those credit cards as a means of reducing exposure to RD.

 

For the rest of us, if we need tax free financial resources in Thailand, foreign credit cards seem one way to go. I certainly will pay for purchases on Lazada with foreign credit cards, and will only use my Thai bank account for purchases where I cannot use a foreign card.

I said elsewhere previously that I worked in Hong Kong for several years whilst also maintaining a home in the UK. I used a UK credit card to settle my HK expenses which were quite high at times. I would usually fly home around once a month for a few days and settle my card bills in the UK. despite these things, HSBC UK called me and wanted to know where I lived etc because of the charges on my M/C. Others reported similar, it doesn't take long for them to  pick pick up on things.

[Ricardo]

2 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

You will need a Resident Certificate to buy or sell an elephant and they will track any future elephant transactions from there.

They'll track it via the trail of elephant-poo, if by no other means !  

 

Better invest in a strong dustpan & brush ?

 

But probably good for your rose-garden !  

[Ricardo]

2 hours ago, samtam said:

 

And a re-enactment scene, with finger pointing.

Great, a spot-the-missing-elephant competition, much better than those too-easy spot-the-football ones !  

Edited December 23, 2023 by Ricardo

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Good, I hope that continues, not everyone has had the same good fortune however.

It may depend on what address is used, ie Thailand or home country.The latter might present problems over time.However if the card is issued (let us say by a British bank) to a openly declared resident of Thailand  - with Thailand address etc, I don't think that any Thailand based expenditure on the card would be queried.Why should it be?

Edited December 23, 2023 by jayboy

[Yumthai]

3 hours ago, Trippy said:

The question might arise, if your going to stay less than 180 days, then why do you need a non-imm visa?

Question might arise but is irrelevant. I may not "need" a non-immigrant visa but I can legally apply and get one if I meet and according to the current requirements, as I am free to remain the number of days per year (be it 0 or 365) I want in Thailand.

 

RD won't (be able to) enforce anything on non-residents for tax purposes in Thailand. If they are not happy with that, they will have to change residency rules and visa requirements.

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Yumthai

[topt]

18 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Watching today's Fabulous 103FM News report & there's a story in there that people have been reporting Immigration (am guessing Chonburi/Jomtien) asking for proof that Income has been taxed at source when doing retirement extensions (presumably using the 65K Income Method)... 2 minutes in...  

Yes I heard him say this on the radio yesterday and was very surprised. 

If accurate I am also surprised that no AseanNow member has reported either first hand or anecdotal evidence.............

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, topt said:

Yes I heard him say this on the radio yesterday and was very surprised. 

If accurate I am also surprised that no AseanNow member has reported either first hand or anecdotal evidence.............

That's the most frightening thing I've heard all year, an Immi officer asking questions about foreign taxation when many don't even understand what a fixed deposit in a Thai bank is. There is no hope for mankind, all hope is lost.

[Ben Zioner]

15 minutes ago, topt said:

Yes I heard him say this on the radio yesterday and was very surprised. 

If accurate I am also surprised that no AseanNow member has reported either first hand or anecdotal evidence.............

Makes sense doesn't, if the 65K weren't taxed at source you'd  have to show something around 70k as you'd have to cater for the Thai income tax deduction. Don't underestimate the Thais. But I can see  people coming up with 35k taxed and 30 untaxed, or worse..

[topt]

11 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Makes sense doesn't, if the 65K weren't taxed at source you'd  have to show something around 70k as you'd have to cater for the Thai income tax deduction. Don't underestimate the Thais. But I can see  people coming up with 35k taxed and 30 untaxed, or worse..

Well not to me it doesn't but I don't use that method. I can see the logic of where you and possibly they are coming from.

However AFAIK the 65k isn't meant to just sit there but be spent so whether you spend it on tax or food should make no difference. Also any tax wont be paid until the following calendar year after it has been remitted.

[The Cyclist]

10 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Makes sense doesn't, if the 65K weren't taxed at source you'd  have to show something around 70k as you'd have to cater for the Thai income tax deduction.

 

It doesn't make any sense.

 

The criteria for people to extend is 65k Baht monthly, 800k in a bank account or a combination of both.

 

It is of no concern to Thai Immigration if that 65k is used to pay Thai Tax, buy 200 crates of the finest Chang or a for a daily indulgence in Exotic Dancers.

 

The current ruling is a monthly 65k deposit, not 65k with an additional 5k just incase you need to pay tax.

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

It doesn't make any sense.

 

The criteria for people to extend is 65k Baht monthly, 800k in a bank account or a combination of both.

 

It is of no concern to Thai Immigration if that 65k is used to pay Thai Tax, buy 200 crates of the finest Chang or a for a daily indulgence in Exotic Dancers.

 

The current ruling is a monthly 65k deposit, not 65k with an additional 5k just incase you need to pay tax.

It especially doesn't make sense Immi having those discussions in December 2023 when the rule change hasn't come into effect yet. Ah silly me, the words sense and Immi., in the same sentence, sorry everyone.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Mike Lister

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

It especially doesn't make sense Immi having those discussions in December 2023 when the rule change hasn't come into effect yet. Ah silly me, the words sense and Immi is=n the same sentence, sorry everyone.

 

I certainly never had any conversations when I extended last month.

 

I wouldn't be too quick to condemn Immigration about this, considering where the original information came from.

 

2nd hand information at best.

 

As I said previously, my 1st remittance of 2024 will hit my account on the 03 Jan. Be interesting to see if I get an ATM notification to present my @rse to the branch or not.

[Ben Zioner]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

It especially doesn't make sense Immi having those discussions in December 2023 when the rule change hasn't come into effect yet. Ah silly me, the words sense and Immi., in the same sentence, sorry everyone.

Their view is that when you extend and show untaxed money, part of that money isn't yours, not entirely wrong. The good news is that they seem to understand the DTAs. But it could make the "agents" lives interesting.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Their view is that when you extend and show untaxed money, part of that money isn't yours, not entirely wrong. The good news is that they seem to understand the DTAs. But it could make the "agents" lives interesting.

I sense an increase in agent fees is coming. I personally welcome the move, I was getting so tired of signing the same 56 pieces of paper, twice, it's about time some new ones were added to the stack.

[UKresonant]

Just now, Trippy said:

No, I mean that all proof will be the the ex-pats responsibility no matter the situation. The question might arise, if your going to stay less than 180 days, then why do you need a non-imm visa?

Can't know for sure if above or below 180 days before application.

Application may not align with tax year (and if it were an extension, may not be in Thailand at renewal point, (that's partly why I've never done an extension, ever)

In the same way if you buy a Thai health insurance policy and often in the T&Cs it says you must be in Thailand for 6 months in 12 to be covered.

 

It's only going to be a question when posed from a assumed template or anticipated behaviour.

 

They could always issue a 10 year, multi entry, 180 day per entry, visitor visa, with no 90 day reports, like the wife has for the UK . ( Though it's up for renewal in a couple of years). Just that she hardly ever gets time to use it! But has a need to have one.

 

 

 

 

[UKresonant]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

Small elephants, maybe, but the elephant protection league may have something to say.

 

But of course if enough smaller purchases over a long enough period of time and your card issuer will start asking questions, I believe we already had that discussion, did we not.

 

The smaller transactions may have to be the minority of transactions and maybe concentrated in two months out of four or it may flag up as a bank debit card withdrawal would. (could always put a subscription for flyer points etc on it .) If you use your card every month for cash , where if you make a withdrawal Quarterly irregular, your just on holiday?