Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Here's a quote from you: "I believe it [CRS] will, especially for international money transfers." My point: international money transfers aren't a data element of CRS reporting.

 

Do you believe that CRS is all about 

 

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

What they ( OECD ) are interested in is ensuring that people are not avoiding tax.

 

Perhaps I should have added by way of CRS.

 

If you dont, thats fine, no further discussion needed.

 

If you do, then international transfers ( by some means ) will have to be checked to ensure that tax has been paid, the transfer is tax exempt, or tax has / will be paid in the Country that it has been remitted to.

 

Or perhaps this is just crap

 

Quote

The Common Reporting Standard (CRS) is an information standard for the Automatic Exchange Of Information (AEOI) regarding financial accounts on a global level, between tax authorities, which the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) developed in 2014. Its purpose is to combat tax evasion.

 

[TravelerEastWest]

4 hours ago, MistyBlue said:

 

I came across some information on this matter after researching another topic.  It's covered in PWCs 2022-23 tax booklet on page 15.  Link here:  https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-2022-23-booklet.pdf

 

I also found a lot of other useful information in the booklet, so hope they produce an updated one with the new interpretation for 2024 at some point.

Many thanks for the link - it looks like expert information in a clear format just what we need. 

 

I also hope they provide an update on the current tax situation soon...

 

For those looking for Thai tax advice that is reliable stick with expert local Thai Tax CPAs and lawyers. CPAs will often be your go-to person to advise and prepare your Thai tax returns - they are far less expensive than CPAs back home let's say 5.000 baht for a small office CPA. Less for a simple tax return.  If you can't afford to pay a CPA then you probably don't owe anything. Perhaps it might be best to wait for a couple of months before asking for help?

 

They can read all the laws, rules and regulations etc in Thai and have a good understanding of what works and doesn't work in Thailand.

 

Advice from well-meaning tax non-professionals (and in many cases the RD) can be useful to get you started - but also dangerous... Keep in mind that all over the world the RD is not on your side and often low to mid-level staff are not well trained.

 

 

Edited January 10 by TravelerEastWest

[JimGant]

7 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

If you do, then international transfers ( by some means ) will have to be checked to ensure that tax has been paid, the transfer is tax exempt, or tax has / will be paid in the Country that it has been remitted to.

 

Wrong. CRS reporting is for showing income earned abroad by a resident of a CRS reporting country. Then, the relevant tax authorities can assess taxes. What happens to that taxable income, in terms of if, when, and where transferred -- is irrelevant (except in weird cases, like Thailand). And, more importantly, if all income streams remitted between countries would somehow be scrutinized for taxability -- Foreign Direct Investment, among other items, would come to a screeching halt. Not going to happen.

 

So, CRS will certainly help determine income being earned abroad by Thai tax residents. And once the remitted proviso is done away with -- Thailand stands to reap some nice tax revenues. But, until then, the remittance proviso neuters CRS reporting.

[stat]

55 minutes ago, JimGant said:

I believe it will, especially for international money transfers.

 

You implied that CRS data was now going to allow determination of foreign income earned by Thai tax residents. That's nice --except because of Thailand's remittance qualification, and because CRS -- and FATCA -- reporting doesn't include remittance information, that ain't going to happen.

 

Here's a quote from you: "I believe it [CRS] will, especially for international money transfers." My point: international money transfers aren't a data element of CRS reporting.

spot on correct, as there is not data on international remittanced in crs, but the cyclist can't be bothered to admit that he is wrong (again). Crs info does not even show if and how much profit you made, it just shows that you have received amount x by selling share y.

Edited January 10 by stat

[Danderman123]

Today, I paid my Thai condo HOA fee of 17,000 baht via WISE transfer from a US bank account (rather from my Thai bank account).

 

I suspect that some here will state that such a transfer is a taxable event.

 

 

[The Cyclist]

41 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Wrong. CRS reporting is for showing income earned abroad by a resident of a CRS reporting country. Then, the relevant tax authorities can assess taxes.

 

That is actually waht I said

 

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

then international transfers ( by some means ) will have to be checked to ensure that tax has been paid, the transfer is tax exempt, or tax has / will be paid in the Country that it has been remitted to.

 

What part of that did you not understand ?
 

It will have to be checked ( by some means ) to ensure that tax has been paid.

 

28 minutes ago, stat said:

spot on correct, as there is not data on international remittanced in crs,

 

Try reading and comprehending. I have never said CrS data contains data on international remittances.

 

I have said that those remittance will have to be checked ( by some means ) to ensure that the appropriate taxes have been paid and that  tax avoidance / evasion is not taking place.

 

CRS being a tool in the fight against tax Avoidance / evasion.

 

Or are you trying to tell me that is a load of poppycock and ithat CRS is really nothing to do with tax avoidance / evasion ?

[CANSIAM]

Go for a quick or long trip outside the country every 175 days and carry on with your occasional transfers from abroad.......... 

[John207]

23 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes, Thanks, I need to change the wording on para 8 to reflect that there is a special class of visa that is outside the RD rules.

Welcome! Do you still have the link to the source showing the statement in paragraph 4 saying:

 

4. There are also certain types of visa that fall outside of the RD tax code. The LTR visa for example received its tax exempt status by royal decree hence visa holders will not to be assessed for Thai tax and they are specifically excluded from this explanation.

 

If not, can I ask you how you came to know that?

Thanks

[oldcpu]

On 1/7/2024 at 9:48 AM, jayboy said:

 

Actually he has a perfectly reasonable point.If it is quite clear that if certain income stream/s (probably best ask competent Thai tax adviser to confirm in case of doubt) are not subject to Thai tax, then I see no point in including them in Thai tax return.This complies with Thai requirements and avoids the boring task of sitting down with RD to decide what is taxable and what is not.

 

Like everyone else - I too am unclear how this will all play out.

 

But in regards to your statement which I quoted, in regards income that may be considered non-assessable, there are countries in the world that are interested in all such global income for their citizens or for people who earn income in their country.  And they don't care if they still can't tax such. They want to know.

 

For such countries, ALL GLOBAL income for them is 'assessable' even though clearly no tax is required on such.

 

Case in point: Canada.  I receive interest income from Canada investments, Old Age Security, and Pension.  Accordingly I have to file a Canadian Tax return every year, even thou I spend > 182 days per year in Thailand.  Further, in that Canadian Tax return, Canada wants to know ALL my global income, even thou they can't tax it.  They want to know every last cent earned from outside of Canada.  Why?  Because my global income is what they use to assess my tax rate and hence assess how much they will tax my Canadian Old Age Security, how much they will tax my Canadian pension, and how much they will tax any interest I get from funds in Canada.  In fact, if my global income is too high, they will claw back part or claw back all of my Canadian Old Age Security.  

 

Its my TOTAL GLOBAL INCOME that Canada uses to determine my tax rate for any income from Canada.  And this is as a non-resident to Canada.  If I was a resident to Canada it would be much worse.

 

As it turns out, as a non-resident to Canada, most of my income comes from OUTSIDE of Canada, and as a result I pay MUCH higher taxes on my Canadian Old Age Security, my Canadian pension, and my interest from Canadian savings (than I would if I had no such extra income from outside of Canada). Even thou I am not a Canadian resident, for me to not declare my global income to Canadian authorities would be illegal from Canada's perspective.  And as noted, if I was a resident to Canada it would be worse (as they would tax all income from outside of Canada (if and as governed by any DTA with other countries )).

 

I am NOT saying this is what Thailand may be thinking, but I do note that there are examples of other countries, where such countries require one to state ALL their global income, even thou it can not be taxed and even thou it is covered by a DTA.  So at this stage of us not knowing, possibly Thailand is pondering something like that. And possibly not.  I simply don't know - and I think at this stage we are all just giving this our best guess.

 

My hope is that there will be no requirement to file income tax returns in Thailand for the majority of us resident here (where our income comes from abroad) but at this stage I think we have many educated guesses , but we really don't know yet exact how this will turn out.

 

[StayinThailand2much]

58 minutes ago, CANSIAM said:

Go for a quick or long trip outside the country every 175 days and carry on with your occasional transfers from abroad.......... 

 

Won't work, as one can only be here for a total of 179 days in a calendar year doing this. That trip would have to be for more than six months...

Edited January 10 by StayinThailand2much

[StayinThailand2much]

7 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

My hope is that there will be no requirement to file income tax returns in Thailand for the majority of us resident here (where our income comes from abroad) but at this stage I think we have many educated guesses , but we really don't know yet exact how this will turn out.

 

There probably won't be clarity until March/April 2025, and even then things might change again at will.

[Metapod]

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

Today, I paid my Thai condo HOA fee of 17,000 baht via WISE transfer from a US bank account (rather from my Thai bank account).

 

I suspect that some here will state that such a transfer is a taxable event.

 

 

 

Yes, it absolutely is a taxable event under the new system. 

[Jingthing]

43 minutes ago, Metapod said:

 

Yes, it absolutely is a taxable event under the new system. 

Not exactly.

It could be.

It depends on the source of that money, etc.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, StayinThailand2much said:

 

There probably won't be clarity until March/April 2025, and even then things might change again at will.

Thr less clarity the )onger the better for tax consultants and their ilk. Bonanza time!

[stat]

3 hours ago, StayinThailand2much said:

 

There probably won't be clarity until March/April 2025, and even then things might change again at will.

I could not agree more. Prepare for the worst and be happy if the law is not applied/controlled which is likely IMHO.

Edited January 10 by stat

[stat]

2 hours ago, Metapod said:

 

Yes, it absolutely is a taxable event under the new system. 

It is assesable to be precise... It is only taxable if 100% of the amount transfered is profit that arose in 2024

[jerrymahoney]

On 1/9/2024 at 9:37 PM, Mike Lister said:

I understand your rationale but it seems unreasonable to provide guidance to others by saying that there is a law you can safely ignore because it's not being enforced at present or there's no associated fine, yet. Everyone needs to know what the law says and make their own decision whether to follow it or not.

Thanks Mike. As someone who has used the 65K+ per month retirement exension modus operandi since year 2007 , I saw this AN post way back in September 2023:

 

 

But no matter how good your intentions, some will always want to play the "How could they ever find out if ..." game.

Edited January 10 by jerrymahoney

[jerrymahoney]

9 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

Today, I paid my Thai condo HOA fee of 17,000 baht via WISE transfer from a US bank account (rather from my Thai bank account).

 

I suspect that some here will state that such a transfer is a taxable event.

Further guidance from the Revenue Department on Foreign Sourced Income

 

In addition to examples of scenarios in which taxpayers should be exempt from Thai tax on foreign-sourced income, the FAQ also clarifies several points, including: 

 

“Remittance of income into Thailand” is defined as any action in bringing the income sourced abroad into Thailand, including wiring money from a bank account, transferring money via e-banking, or physically carrying cash into Thailand.

 

However, the FAQ did not confirm whether spending money in Thailand from an offshore bank account, credit card, or debit card could be considered a remittance of income into Thailand. 

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Revenue-Department-s-guidance-on-foreign-income

[JimGant]

11 hours ago, Metapod said:

Yes, it absolutely is a taxable event under the new system. 

 

Presumably that US bank account from which your Wise transfer came from had funds in it pre 1 Jan 2024. And maybe a deposit on 1 Jan 2024 of a private pension, and a deposit of a government pension. So, from which part of this fungible pot of money did your Wise remittance come from?

 

Until they come out and mandate Fifo or Lifo (first in first out, last in last out) -- which they probably won't -- it's up to you. And since GAAP (generally accepted accounting principles) defines fifo and lifo relative to inventories, not remittances -- I'd say you're free to pick and choose what tranche of your bank account funded your Wise transfer. So, if you had sufficient pre-2024 funds in your bank account, or your government pension was large enough, or a combination of the two -- there you have it, as these are non assessable income remittances. With no instructions to the contrary, you can pick and choose the non assessable tranches of your bank account. In this example, you would not pick the private pension tranche, as this is assessable income. Just keep good records, particularly showing the tranches you choose had enough funds to cover your remittance.

 

Anyway, this is my guess. All part of what's going to necessarily be a self-assessment drill.

 

 

[JimGant]

4 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

However, the FAQ did not confirm whether spending money in Thailand from an offshore bank account, credit card, or debit card could be considered a remittance of income into Thailand. 

 

Presumably your plastic sucks money from your bank account; just make sure this account had sufficient pre-2024 deposits, plus gov't pension and social security deposits, going forward (for Yanks, anyway). Then, same advice as the above posting.

[jerrymahoney]

33 minutes ago, JimGant said:

 

Presumably your plastic sucks money from your bank account; just make sure this account had sufficient pre-2024 deposits, plus gov't pension and social security deposits, going forward (for Yanks, anyway). Then, same advice as the above posting.

All my income that is remitted to Thailand is current monthly. There are no deposits other than when goes through and out every month. I keep some small cash cushion for emergencies.

[bugger bognor]

13 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

Further guidance from the Revenue Department on Foreign Sourced Income

 

In addition to examples of scenarios in which taxpayers should be exempt from Thai tax on foreign-sourced income, the FAQ also clarifies several points, including: 

 

“Remittance of income into Thailand” is defined as any action in bringing the income sourced abroad into Thailand, including wiring money from a bank account, transferring money via e-banking, or physically carrying cash into Thailand.

 

However, the FAQ did not confirm whether spending money in Thailand from an offshore bank account, credit card, or debit card could be considered a remittance of income into Thailand. 

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Revenue-Departmentr it's equivalent in Amy other c

 

[Mike Lister]

This thread has become too unwieldy and confused to be of real value any longer. It is too long for most posters to scroll through to find pertinent information and will be closed.

 

A new thread will be opened shortly, designed to complete the Simple Guide to Personal Taxation which remains incomplete. The objective there is to construct a single document that will benefit ALL members, recording all the things that are known and listing the things that are unknown or unclear. The purpose is so that everyone, readers and contributors alike, achieve a similar understanding so that some of the fear and anxiety of the unknown, is removed.  

 

If anyone wishes to start a discussion about CRS or any other aspect of taxation, please open a dedicated thread that focuses on just that topic but please be clear what the scope is.Please keep it within the appropriate forum

[kiever]

On 1/10/2024 at 9:58 PM, John207 said:

Welcome! Do you still have the link to the source showing the statement in paragraph 4 saying:

 

4. There are also certain types of visa that fall outside of the RD tax code. The LTR visa for example received its tax exempt status by royal decree hence visa holders will not to be assessed for Thai tax and they are specifically excluded from this explanation.

 

If not, can I ask you how you came to know that?

Thanks

What about Thai elite visa ?

[metisdead]

A post commenting on moderation contravening our Community Standards has been removed:

• If you would like to discuss moderation contact Support

[Mike Lister]

10 hours ago, kiever said:

What about Thai elite visa ?

https://www.siam-legal.com/thai-elite-visa/legal-applications-on-the-new-thai-tax-law-and-thailand-elite-visa-holders/

[UKresonant]

10 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

https://www.siam-legal.com/thai-elite-visa/legal-applications-on-the-new-thai-tax-law-and-thailand-elite-visa-holders/

 

They seem to be suggesting the day counts for Tax they way immigration count, any second in the local time calendar day as a full day, rather than the at the midnight end of the day convention ... + 1 tax days for the 21:00 flight +2 tax days if its overbooked and they put you on the 02:00hrs outbound...

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, UKresonant said:

 

They seem to be suggesting the day counts for Tax they way immigration count, any second in the local time calendar day as a full day, rather than the at the midnight end of the day convention ... + 1 tax days for the 21:00 flight +2 tax days if its overbooked and they put you on the 02:00hrs outbound...

I read that as being from the date stamp on departure to the date stamp on arrival, which is manageable to some degree since you would need to go airside before midnight for most long hauls. The problem is that the same day could count as being resident in two different countries, which can add up over the year.

[redwood1]

On 1/11/2024 at 4:24 PM, Mike Lister said:

This thread has become too unwieldy and confused to be of real value any longer. It is too long for most posters to scroll through to find pertinent information and will be closed.

 

A new thread will be opened shortly, designed to complete the Simple Guide to Personal Taxation which remains incomplete. The objective there is to construct a single document that will benefit ALL members, recording all the things that are known and listing the things that are unknown or unclear. The purpose is so that everyone, readers and contributors alike, achieve a similar understanding so that some of the fear and anxiety of the unknown, is removed.  

 

If anyone wishes to start a discussion about CRS or any other aspect of taxation, please open a dedicated thread that focuses on just that topic but please be clear what the scope is.Please keep it within the appropriate forum

 

Only 211 pages....Come on we can do 500 pages....I am a believer...

[Mike Lister]

11 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

Only 211 pages....Come on we can do 500 pages....I am a believer...

Please, be my guest.

 

Make no mistake, whilst the thread is very long, there is a lot of seriously helpful information in there, finding it is not always easy but it's worth sifting through for many and asking questions of those who are knowledgeable about CRS and related topics. Meanwhile, for those with simpler needs, the Simple Tax Guide Thread awaits.