Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[garygooner]

13 hours ago, redwood1 said:

I will eat crow

What's wrong with crow? 

[Mike Lister]

4 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

 

 

It's readers and posters that determine their own interests, not me. But honestly, you guys kept this thread alive for four months, I've only been managing the topic for two weeks!!!

[Danderman123]

16 hours ago, Celsius said:

 

 

meanwhile Chinese, hk, taiwanese citizens are not paying tax on their multiple rentals in Thailand 

You are suggesting that some Asians own rental properties in Thailand, but do not pay tax on their income. Since the cash transfers can't be tracked by RD, they can probably freely evade paying taxes.

 

However, people on retirement visas who live off monies transferred into Thailand are more easily monitored by RD. So, they may be forced to comply with the new rules.

[Celsius]

20 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

You are suggesting that some Asians own rental properties in Thailand, but do not pay tax on their income. Since the cash transfers can't be tracked by RD, they can probably freely evade paying taxes.

 

However, people on retirement visas who live off monies transferred into Thailand are more easily monitored by RD. So, they may be forced to comply with the new rules.

 

So, for those pesky Asians who are renting out multiple properties in Thailand through Thai agents and are actually not living in Thailand, the 15% withholding tax should apply.

 

Something to consider the next time your agent refuses to give you deposit back.

[Danderman123]

4 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 

So, for those pesky Asians who are renting out multiple properties in Thailand through Thai agents and are actually not living in Thailand, the 15% withholding tax should apply.

 

Something to consider the next time your agent refuses to give you deposit back.

Right.

 

And I *should* be sitting on the beach in Copacabana.

 

 

[scorecard]

On 1/27/2024 at 5:50 PM, Klonko said:

Because the idiot may have been asked by a foreign bank to provide a Thai tax ID as Thai tax resident. I have no assessable income in Thailand to date, but it may be easier to get a Thai tax ID than convincing my foreign bank's compliance department.

 

My bank receives transfers in every 4 weeks labelled as old age pension payments coming from a foreign gov't department dedicated to pension payments. They can in a few seconds search and build a picture of such transfers coming in every 4 weeks for over 15 years.

 

My Thai bank has never once asked one question re these funds.

[Mike Lister]

5 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

My bank receives transfers in every 4 weeks labelled as old age pension payments coming from a foreign gov't department dedicated to pension payments. They can in a few seconds search and build a picture of such transfers coming in every 4 weeks for over 15 years.

 

My Thai bank has never once asked one question re these funds.

They probably never will, why would they? Your Thai bank is receiving funds from overseas, so what?

 

 The post above refers to UK banks requesting Thai TIN's from their British customers who also live in Thailand, they want to know that the customer is registered for tax here and understand where that customer pays tax, the UK or Thailand.

[Mike Lister]

On 1/27/2024 at 8:51 PM, Yumthai said:

 

What will be extremely helpful to mention and quote are real-life examples of the average Joe expat being audited, fined and penalized for having not paid tax (i.e. Personal Income Tax) they owed.

 

With such cases of individual tax law enforcement, everyone could evaluate real risks involved then decide accordingly.

 

If it can't be found, then even real-life tax law enforcement examples on locals could at some extent be useful.

 

I agree that sort of information will be useful downstream but I don't think we're anywhere near to that point. Audits and fines on any scale are probably 12 to 15 months away at the soonest. In the meantime, what we desperately need is for posters to give us details of what happened when they visited  the Revenue office because that will help many people plan and make better decisions. 

[samtam]

On 1/27/2024 at 2:50 PM, The Cyclist said:

 

Pak Chong

 

5 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I agree that sort of information will be useful downstream but I don't think we're anywhere near to that point. Audits and fines on any scale are probably 12 to 15 months away at the soonest. In the meantime, what we desperately need is for posters to give us details of what happened when they visited  the Revenue office because that will help many people plan and make better decisions. 

 

Agreed. The Cyclist has already done this. As I'm in Bangkok, I'm obviously interested in anyone's experience here.

[samtam]

10 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

 

Agreed. The Cyclist has already done this. As I'm in Bangkok, I'm obviously interested in anyone's experience here.

 

Here is the context, for those who missed it. His RD office is Pak Chong:

 

Quote

 

Just posted this on a newly opened thread, might be of use to some.

 

I went to my local RD office this morning, armed with everything to get a TIN and file a tax return for 2023, including my other half as interuptor.

 

P60's annotated in Thai script by my trusty interuptor, colour coded tying them up with the deposits to my bank printout with matching colour coding.

 

All as easy as pie.

 

Took less than 5 minutes for them to tell me I had no need to file a tax return.

 

I didn't ask any questions on what might or might not be changing, I'll await an official announcement from the RD before going any further.

 

Take your pick from the following

 

* It is true and my local RD Office is not aware of it.

 

* My local RD couldn't care less.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

36 minutes ago, samtam said:

 

Here is the context, for those who missed it. His RD office is Pak Chong:

 

 

There's two primary reason why a return need not be filed. The first is it was a nill return, the second is that the imported funds had already been taxed in the UK. Without sitting down and reading other threads and posts, it's not immediately clear to me which reason applies in his case. Knowing the reason for absolute certain, is important.

[The Cyclist]

3 hours ago, samtam said:

Agreed. The Cyclist has already done this. As I'm in Bangkok, I'm obviously interested in anyone's experience here.

 

No idea if this makes any difference.

 

Both my pensions are remitted to Thailand direct from the Pension administrators. I have no funds transferred from my UK bank or via a 3rd party like Wise etc.

 

I have currently stopped my Private pension being remitted to Thailand and  will go to my UK account until The RD make a further announcement.

 

My Gov Pension comes with the code XXX - PAYMASTER - XXX, which I believe will identify it to the RD as a UK Government Pension and by extension non taxable in Thailand due to the UK - Thai DTA.

 

For the time being, until further instructions appear via the RD, I think my bases are covered as far as the Thai Taxman is concerned.

[Anthony mellows]

For God's sake please somebody start a new thread on this topic.

[redwood1]

2 minutes ago, Anthony mellows said:

For God's sake please somebody start a new thread on this topic.

 

Nope....This thread is like a bad marriage.....We have to much invested to leave...

[Ben Zioner]

22 hours ago, Anthony mellows said:

For God's sake please somebody start a new thread on this topic.

There have been several attempts, but they all get diluted with drivel and posters bounce back here. There is one by @Mike Lister that remains useful, just. One topic on Tax agents could be helpful too, but would require tight moderation as well.

 

I think the Tax issue is quite serious and this forum could be useful, but is seems that most posters don't think so.

[Mike Lister]

3 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

There have been several attempts, but they all get diluted with drivel and posters bounce back here. There is one by @Mike Lister that remains useful, just. One topic on Tax agents could be helpful too, but would require tight moderation as well.

 

I think the Tax issue is quite serious and this forum could be useful, but is seems that most posters don't think so.

There was no focus and no ring fence in the debates, it was all posturing and drivel and circular discussions, that's why it didn't go anywhere and why people aren't interested any more. Plus it didn't serve any useful purpose to the majority of readers who couldn't understand the debate and couldn't find anything useful. 

 

If you want a thread on Tax Agents, open one in the business and economics section and I'll make sure it is tightly moderated. 

[Mike Lister]

I'm going to cross post here because there is so much misleading and confusing information flying around that many people are getting confused, and no wonder why.

 

Firstly, poster The Cyclist went to the RD to see if he needed to file a tax return, this is because , " I was a Thai Tax Resident in 2023 and as the income was from pensions, technically it was remitted the year it was earned". So yes, he was required to file a tax return under the old rules. BUT, for whatever reason the RD said he didn't need to file a return, allegedly, and oddly, he didn't ask why! We may never know what the real story was here or the reasons behind it so we all must move on and find another new example because the information on this is not reliable or conclusive in any way.

 

Secondly, we are being told repeatedly by some that we don't know what assessable income is and that at some point, the RD will tell us. This is not true, we have always known what assessable income is, the definition has not changed. Assessable income in Thailand is any income that was remitted to Thailand, whilst tax resident and was earned after 1 January 2024 and which is not exempted by the DTA between Thailand and your home country, or by the Thai RD. 

 

Thirdly, the Revenue Department may make some announcements in the coming months or there again they may not. I am hard pressed to understand exactly what announcements might be made or why. We have been told that new tax filing forms are being prepared, presumably they are being redesigned but I don't even know this for certain. It is not impossible to think that we might arrive at 31 December 2024 knowing nothing more than we do today, in respect of Thai tax. If that happens, anyone who has been tax resident here during this year, will be required to file a tax return, as long as they have assessable income that exceeds the threshold of 120,000. Assessable income is defined above. It will be YOUR responsibility to understand your country's DTA with Thailand and determine what constitutes assessable income. DTA's are available to download and are linked in the OP.

 

Lastly, it is possible that many different things might happen between now and the end of the year but at this stage, trying to imagine what they might be is nothing more than guess work so I'm not even going to discuss any of them because it only further confuses matters.

[Hornell]

On 1/29/2024 at 3:53 PM, Anthony mellows said:

For God's sake please somebody start a new thread on this topic.

Hear hear!!!!!

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Hornell said:

Hear hear!!!!!

 

On 1/29/2024 at 3:53 PM, Anthony mellows said:

For God's sake please somebody start a new thread on this topic.

 

Wishes granted!

 

 

[Badrabbit]

Oh what, I didn't understand one post, tottaly confusing now it's gone, must be something else I don't understand.

[The Cyclist]

14 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Secondly, we are being told repeatedly by some that we don't know what assessable income is and that at some point, the RD will tell us. This is not true, we have always known what assessable income is, the definition has not changed. Assessable income in Thailand is any income that was remitted to Thailand, whilst tax resident and was earned after 1 January 2024 and which is not exempted by the DTA between Thailand and your home country, or by the Thai RD. 

 

So what was Assessable Income "  prior to 01 Jan 2024 ?

 

Was it not 

 

15 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

as long as they have assessable income that exceeds the threshold of 120,000.

 

 

15 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Firstly, poster The Cyclist went to the RD to see if he needed to file a tax return, this is because , " I was a Thai Tax Resident in 2023 and as the income was from pensions, technically it was remitted the year it was earned". So yes, he was required to file a tax return under the old rules.

 

* Pak Chong RD Office think otherwise.

 

* I will defer to numerous previous comments, made by myself, and others, who were led to believe, although probably did not know for a fact, that my UK pensions, and other sources of Income were not considered " Assessable income "  in Thailand for tax purposes.

 

Which is why I, and many others have never filed Thai Tax Returns.

 

Why you keep banging on about 

 

15 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

and oddly, he didn't ask why!

 

Is a bit of a mystery.

 

Why would I, or indeed anyone else ask questions on the why ?  I went with the sole intention of obtaining a TIN and filing a 2023 tax return if it was required.

 

Just like I do not need to know the why or the how various parts of my car operate. That is what Service Stations are for, or RD Offices, or Aircon Servicers are for. They are the people that need to know the why or the how.

[Mike Lister]

24 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

So what was Assessable Income "  prior to 01 Jan 2024 ?

 

Was it not 

 

* Pak Chong RD Office think otherwise.

 

* I will defer to numerous previous comments, made by myself, and others, who were led to believe, although probably did not know for a fact, that my UK pensions, and other sources of Income were not considered " Assessable income "  in Thailand for tax purposes.

 

 

Possible explanations include:

 

1) The Revenue Code is wrong

 

2) Pak Chong is wrong

 

My strongest suggestion is that everyone forget about your visit to the Revenue and your particular circumstances because none of what has been said about it thus far is helpful or useful. For the purpose of this thread we need to find somebody else who has interacted with the RD and asked questions and received answers.

[The Cyclist]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

My strongest suggestion is that everyone forget about your visit to the Revenue and your particular circumstances because none of what has been said about it thus far is helpful or useful. For the purpose of this thread we need to find somebody else who has interacted with the RD and asked questions and received answers.

 

Paging @Shoeless Joe

 

Can you remind us of your visit to your local RD Office again

 

Paging @Isan Farang

 

Can you remind us of your visit to your local RD Office again.

 

2 that I can recall posting on the thread, and I think with similar experience to mine

 

@Will B Good might have followed up on his unanswered emails.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Paging @Shoeless Joe

 

Can you remind us of your visit to your local RD Office again

 

Paging @Isan Farang

 

Can you remind us of your visit to your local RD Office again.

 

2 that I can recall posting on the thread, and I think with similar experience to mine

 

@Will B Good might have followed up on his unanswered emails.

 

I found the report from Shoeless Joe and this is linked below (page 8):

 

 

My questions on it include:

1) was SJ's pension income remitted in the same year it was earned?

2) were the pensions government pensions or not

3) probably others I haven't thought of yet but we';ll start with the above.

 

A few observations:

 

Nan is a remote border province and SJ does say that he was the first person to ever ask the questions of RD staff there that he did. I wonder how reliable the answer is and whether that office represents the Thai Revenue on this subject. Perhaps SJ can fill in some of the gaps for us?

 

[newnative]

51 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

So what was Assessable Income "  prior to 01 Jan 2024 ?

 

Was it not 

 

 

 

 

* Pak Chong RD Office think otherwise.

 

* I will defer to numerous previous comments, made by myself, and others, who were led to believe, although probably did not know for a fact, that my UK pensions, and other sources of Income were not considered " Assessable income "  in Thailand for tax purposes.

 

Which is why I, and many others have never filed Thai Tax Returns.

 

Why you keep banging on about 

 

 

Is a bit of a mystery.

 

Why would I, or indeed anyone else ask questions on the why ?  I went with the sole intention of obtaining a TIN and filing a 2023 tax return if it was required.

 

Just like I do not need to know the why or the how various parts of my car operate. That is what Service Stations are for, or RD Offices, or Aircon Servicers are for. They are the people that need to know the why or the how.

     Couldn't agree more.  The only time I would ever ask 'why' to any government official in Thailand would be if I got an answer I didn't agree with or didn't think was correct--and maybe not even then.   Somebody tells me at Immigration, 'No, you don't need to draw us a map of where your place of residence is located', I'm not going to ask why I don't need to do this.  I'm going to say a polite 'thank you' and exit stage right.

[Mike Lister]

Here's a second report mentioned by cyclist, this one a cut and paste from Isan Farang.

 

"Today i went to the Tax office in Ubon, to get my tax refund that was deducted from my FD savings last year. The lady told my wife my pension and savings being sent from the UK is not to be taxed. She said if i am a pensioner and have no employment i do not fill out any tax documents.

 

When my wife said there are some supposed new rules starting from Jan 24, the lady smiled and said Thailand has many new rules but none of them are followed. She has worked there for 40 years." 

 

This report also does not seem to mention the type of pension and whether there is any reference to DTA's, it appears to be a casual conversation between the posters wife and a Revenue employee who doesn't seem that keen on RD rules!

 

 

[Mike Lister]

What strikes me about the three Revenue Department contact reports mentioned so far, cyclist, Shoeless Joe and Isan Farang is how inconclusive they all are. One is a casual conversation at best, another is in a very remote border RD office and the third, was cyclist non-communicative episode. Based on what I've seen so far, none of the people seemed interested in finding out reasons why and whether what they were told was policy or merely something that was said to make everyone happy. As soon as they heard the words, no need to file, they were out of there like a shot.

 

I get the idea that most people are more interested in finding out what their personal situation is regarding tax and the RD rather than trying to understand the issue more completely and inform everyone else. Maybe that sort of response works for some people, it doesn't do much for me, I'd like to understand a little bit more about the detail and the reasons why, so I'll keep looking.

[ukrules]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

I went with the sole intention of obtaining a TIN and filing a 2023 tax return if it was required.

 

Did they issue you a TIN for next year?

[The Cyclist]

Just now, ukrules said:

 

Did they issue you a TIN for next year?

 

Nope

 

Tax year 2024 was not discussed, any potential upcoming changes were not discussed.

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

     Couldn't agree more.  The only time I would ever ask 'why' to any government official in Thailand would be if I got an answer I didn't agree with or didn't think was correct--and maybe not even then.   Somebody tells me at Immigration, 'No, you don't need to draw us a map of where your place of residence is located', I'm not going to ask why I don't need to do this.  I'm going to say a polite 'thank you' and exit stage right.

 

Somebody with the same mindset as me.

 

Take the win and swiftly and politely move on.