Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[Mike Lister]

21 minutes ago, 4myr said:

Agree. I'm in the process of discovery right now. Double tax treaty and remittance rules seems to be clear now.

 

Only scare is if my local tax officer is willing to spend time to learn the exemptions from my country's DTA stated in non plain Thai language. Also in discovery with my tax office is to find out the specific records that need to be kept for each income type and whether credit can be obtained.

 

For example dividend income from a company where I am a significant UBO is called in Dutch tax law "box 2" income tax: "Tax on substantial interests (box 2) In box 2, you pay tax on any substantial interests. You have a substantial interest if you, or you and a tax partner together, own at least 5% of the shares, options or profit-sharing certificates in a company. You pay 25% tax on income from substantial interests."

 

Try to explain to a tax officer such a type of income. Because there is also dividend income from stocks under box 3, which is called the wealth tax.

 

 

Don't forget that you only need to explain these things, if you are audited or asked for additional supportive information, after you have filed.

[Seeall]

On 3/27/2024 at 5:48 PM, Letseng said:

My husband recently needed a new ATM card. BKK Bank asked for his Thai TIN. 

My mum sends me. One million every year. How you gonna argue with her?

[paddypower]

On 4/12/2024 at 9:46 AM, JimGant said:

 It's up to you....😉

that reminds me of a couple of similar questions from bar girls I've chatted with, over the years.

[Danderman123]

On 4/14/2024 at 3:02 PM, Yumthai said:

 

Is there any country that taxes its non-residents on foreign-sourced remittances? If Thailand is trying to do that, it would be a premiere.

 

 

Thailand does not tax non-residents.

[Danderman123]

I would imagine that the vast majority of Farangs living in the village have no idea about any of these details, or even a requirement to file income tax in Thailand.

 

The question is what is going to happen next year, when only a tiny percent file a return?

 

If you ask a random Farangs, they would look surprised and then mumble about "nothing is going to change".

 

To be safe, I am only remiting my US Social Security payments to Thailand, and am staying away from Thailand for all but 179 days this year. So I am writing from the pool area of Le Parisian casino in Macau at the moment.

 

🙂

 

[Mike Lister]

20 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

I would imagine that the vast majority of Farangs living in the village have no idea about any of these details, or even a requirement to file income tax in Thailand.

 

The question is what is going to happen next year, when only a tiny percent file a return?

 

If you ask a random Farangs, they would look surprised and then mumble about "nothing is going to change".

 

To be safe, I am only remiting my US Social Security payments to Thailand, and am staying away from Thailand for all but 179 days this year. So I am writing from the pool area of Le Parisian casino in Macau at the moment.

 

🙂

 

Whereas nothing in my life is going to change or has changed regarding finances and where I live, neither will it. Owning the house we live in means my rent wont increase; our willingness to bring over significant funds and invest in THB in the early days and trust Thai banks, means we won't be forced to transfer funds to live for many years; our willingness to file taxes for several years means I am a known entity with a proven track record with TRD (even though I didn't need to file a return, cough cough). Sorry, couldn't resist. 🙂

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

our willingness to file taxes for several years means I am a known entity with a proven track record with TRD (even though I didn't need to file a return, cough cough

 

You didn't need to file a return? You mean you filed a tax return with assessable income below 120k? Or with blank lines, because you had no assessable income? You like rubbing elbows with bureaucrats, and wasting a day, or part thereof, in an unnecessary endeavor? Seriously, this aspect of your dealing with RD has come up before -- with no logical answer.

 

Cough, cough -- how about, barf, barf.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

 

You didn't need to file a return? You mean you filed a tax return with assessable income below 120k? Or with blank lines, because you had no assessable income? You like rubbing elbows with bureaucrats, and wasting a day, or part thereof, in an unnecessary endeavor? Seriously, this aspect of your dealing with RD has come up before -- with no logical answer.

 

Cough, cough -- how about, barf, barf.

Goodness your memory is short, we had the full debate on this months ago and you were over me like rash for filing a return when I didn't need to, because there was no tax to pay and there was nowhere on the return to put excluded income. Well, I did anyway, because it took me all of fourteen minutes plus I got a free cup of coffee and I had a nice chat with the TRD folks and now I have the paper audit trail and a track record. There are worse ways  for a retiree to spend an hour of their life.

[JohnnyBD]

18 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

I dispute that, a lot less effort than a yearly extension. No need to print any document, 2 hours at home, a few emails, and 90 minutes at Chamchuri. But it is true that I didn't have to fiddle anything  and had all my docs in english. 

Hi Ben,

Just a question... Is it your understanding that once you get a LTR visa for Wealthy Pensioners, all of the money you remit to Thailand is tax exempt (no TIN, no tax return need be filed), even if you're here for more than 180 days?, And, that you are tax exempt each year going forward as long as you have the LTR, not just the first year you get it?

[JohnnyBD]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

You didn't need to file a return?

Hi Jim,

I noticed on another thread, that it appears you may have the LTR visa. I have a question... 

Is it your understanding that once you get a LTR visa for Wealthy Pensioners, all of the money you remit to Thailand is tax exempt (no TIN, and no tax return need be filed), even if you're here for more than 180 days?, And, that you are tax exempt each year going forward as long as you have the LTR, not just the first year you get it?

I'm currently on marriage, but am thinking about switching to LTR because next year I need to bring over about 10MM baht to pay for condo and replenish my THB accounts that I am using this year to avoid bringing any money over.

Thanks for your reply...

Edited April 16 by JohnnyBD
added

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

and now I have the paper audit trail and a track record. There are worse ways  for a retiree to spend an hour of their life.

...to show you had no assessable income, and then, of course, no taxable income.? To what end? In case they came knocking on your door to look at your financials, which are apparently in such order that they wouldn't draw any attention for an audit in the first place? Why waste your time in the 1% chance you'll be subject to an audit? But if you were -- THEN you can proudly display your paperwork? Geez. The RD folks, when they see you wander into their office every year, must shake their heads -- and titter.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

Is it your understanding that once you get a LTR visa for Wealthy Pensioners, all of the money you remit to Thailand is tax exempt (no TIN, and no tax return need be filed), even if you're here for more than 180 days?, And, that you are tax exempt each year going forward as long as you have the LTR, not just the first year you get it?

Yes, as the current exemption for LTR holders is written. And doubtful that would ever be rescinded, as BoI (LTR honchos) is high horsepower, working directly under the Prime Minister.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, JimGant said:

...to show you had no assessable income, and then, of course, no taxable income.? To what end? In case they came knocking on your door to look at your financials, which are apparently in such order that they wouldn't draw any attention for an audit in the first place? Why waste your time in the 1% chance you'll be subject to an audit? But if you were -- THEN you can proudly display your paperwork? Geez. The RD folks, when they see you wander into their office every year, must shake their heads -- and titter.

Possibly, But there again, when I do walk in to the TRD office to file my tax return, nobody says to me, Mr Mike, according to the rules, you don't need to file, you can go home! Call me old fashioned if you like but I like that warm comfortable feeling of being able to instantly lay my hands on paper copies of my tax returns from three different countries each year, safe in the knowledge that my entire financial world is easily seen. God forbid that the Immi Dept should ever be so crazy as to reactivate tax clearance certificates in order to renew a visa, but in the 1 in 1,000 chance that they did, I'd be OK with that. And anyway, what's wrong with a little Thai tittering, it's charming and cute.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

when I do walk in to the TRD office to file my tax return, nobody says to me, Mr Mike, according to the rules, you don't need to file, you can go home!

I guess they need to humor you.

[Mike Lister]

36 minutes ago, JimGant said:

I guess they need to humor you.

Quit baiting, you're sounding less like a respected cpa with every post.

 

The discussion is NOT me, it is tax, please stay on topic.

[Ben Zioner]

4 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

Hi Jim,

I noticed on another thread, that it appears you may have the LTR visa. I have a question... 

Is it your understanding that once you get a LTR visa for Wealthy Pensioners, all of the money you remit to Thailand is tax exempt (no TIN, and no tax return need be filed), even if you're here for more than 180 days?, And, that you are tax exempt each year going forward as long as you have the LTR, not just the first year you get it?

I'm currently on marriage, but am thinking about switching to LTR because next year I need to bring over about 10MM baht to pay for condo and replenish my THB accounts that I am using this year to avoid bringing any money over.

Thanks for your reply...

Yes my understanding is that I am tax exempt on pensions, my only source of income. Not wether I'll have to file a tax return, and how it would get processed, I have no idea. I going to visit BOI next week as I'll get a new passport and I'll ask them if they intend to get this clarified before the end of the year.

 

I would be good if you could show paperwork to prove that you 10 million were earned before January 1, 2024, as this would make them non taxable in any case.

Edited April 16 by Ben Zioner

[JohnnyBD]

2 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

I going to visit BOI next week as I'll get a new passport and I'll ask them if they intend to get this clarified before the end of the year.

Hi Ben,

If you wouldn't mind posting what you find out from BOI, it would be greatly appreciated. I was planning to stay out of the country next year for 7 months to be safe, but I would prefer to get the LTR visa if the rules state that monies remitted (in my case, a combination of Social Security, pre-2024 monies and 2024 monies) are tax exempt. If I had to remit just non-assessable monies, I could do it, but it would be easier not to. Thanks again...

Edited April 16 by JohnnyBD
added

[OJAS]

On 4/14/2024 at 12:27 AM, Mike Lister said:

Can everyone say what are their three biggest/top three issues in the don't know/unclear category, please?

 

Top one for me (and, I suspect, a fair few other Brits as well) is whether we shall be required to file RD returns in respect of State Pension remittances, especially where these are the sole sources of our assessable income and bearing in mind the existence of various exemptions and allowances totaliing up to 500k pa, which could therefore, in practice, reduce the RD tax bill to zero (my perpetually frozen State Pension, for example, works out at around 300k pa which is, however, still well in excess of the 120k annual assessable income threshold above which tax returns are supposedly required).

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, OJAS said:

 

Top one for me (and, I suspect, a fair few other Brits as well) is whether we shall be required to file RD returns in respect of State Pension remittances, especially where these are the sole sources of our assessable income and bearing in mind the existence of various exemptions and allowances totaliing up to 500k pa, which could therefore, in practice, reduce the RD tax bill to zero (my perpetually frozen State Pension, for example, works out at around 300k pa which is, however, still well in excess of the 120k annual assessable income threshold above which tax returns are supposedly required).

Yes, this is a concern for many people. The key is I think that you know that no tax is due so that's the main thing. Worst case is that you are required to file and it's a simple filing that the staff at the RD will do for you.

[stat]

On 4/12/2024 at 2:24 PM, redwood1 said:

 

Interesting....Looks like they knocked 50K off the application fee..But left all the other very very high bar requirements......I agree its strange.....

The only reason I can think if that they only issued 5500 LTR visa and were hoping for a lot more.

[stat]

On 4/16/2024 at 12:19 PM, Mike Lister said:

Possibly, But there again, when I do walk in to the TRD office to file my tax return, nobody says to me, Mr Mike, according to the rules, you don't need to file, you can go home! Call me old fashioned if you like but I like that warm comfortable feeling of being able to instantly lay my hands on paper copies of my tax returns from three different countries each year, safe in the knowledge that my entire financial world is easily seen. God forbid that the Immi Dept should ever be so crazy as to reactivate tax clearance certificates in order to renew a visa, but in the 1 in 1,000 chance that they did, I'd be OK with that. And anyway, what's wrong with a little Thai tittering, it's charming and cute.

If you think there will be no problems from a tax audit you have no experience whatsoever of a tax audit. All tax audits I was part of (professionally and personal) were a big surprise show where usually the parts I thought were tricky went without any problems but in other areas they "invented" problems.

Edited April 17 by stat

[Mike Lister]

21 minutes ago, stat said:

If you think there will be no problems from a tax audit you have no experience whatsoever of a tax audit. All tax audits I was part of (professionally and personal) were a big surprise show where usually the parts I thought were tricky went without any problems but in other areas they "invented" problems.

I didn't say or imply anything of the sort, please stop trying to scare people. Your experience in tax audits overseas is off topic anyway.

[JohnnyBD]

I just received the following email regarding monies remitted to Thailand for LTR visa holders. It will definitely factor into my decision on whether to buy a LTR visa or just stay in my home country for 7 months next year when I need to remit big monies for a new condo and to replenish my THB accounts.

 

Dear Sir,

 

LTR Visa holders are tax exempt from income remitted into Thailand as long it wasn't earned in the same year. For example, any earnings before 2024 (savings) remitted into Thailand in 2024 will not be subjected to income tax.

 

Pension and dividends earned in 2024 and remitted in the same year would be subjected to income tax. We advise our clients to wait until the following tax year (calendar year in Thailand) to remit this income. Most people who hold the LTR will not have to pay tax as their savings are much more significant than their annual earnings.

 

You would meet all the requirements as a "Wealthy Pensioner" based on the information you provided. The success of your application will be dependent on the supporting evidence you are able to provide.

 

If you have any questions or would like to retain our services, please do not hesitate to contact us.

 

Sincerely,

Xxxx Xxxxx International * I blocked Company name to be polite

 

Edited April 17 by JohnnyBD
Blocked Company name

[Mike Lister]

22 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

I just received the following email regarding monies remitted to Thailand for LTR visa holders. It will definitely factor into my decision on whether to buy a LTR visa or just stay in my home country for 7 months next year when I need to remit big monies for a new condo and to replenish my THB accounts.

 

Dear Sir,

 

LTR Visa holders are tax exempt from income remitted into Thailand as long it wasn't earned in the same year. For example, any earnings before 2024 (savings) remitted into Thailand in 2024 will not be subjected to income tax.

 

Pension and dividends earned in 2024 and remitted in the same year would be subjected to income tax. We advise our clients to wait until the following tax year (calendar year in Thailand) to remit this income. Most people who hold the LTR will not have to pay tax as their savings are much more significant than their annual earnings.

 

You would meet all the requirements as a "Wealthy Pensioner" based on the information you provided. The success of your application will be dependent on the supporting evidence you are able to provide.

 

If you have any questions or would like to retain our services, please do not hesitate to contact us.

 

Sincerely,

Xxxx Xxxxx International * blocked so I don't offend the company

 

The letter above is very ambiguous and shows a lack of understanding regarding the rules. The first sentence, "LTR Visa holders are tax exempt from income remitted into Thailand as long it wasn't earned in the same year" implies the old rules governing remittances is still in effect, which it is not.

 

The second sentence, "For example, any earnings before 2024 (savings) remitted into Thailand in 2024 will not be subjected to income tax", confuses earnings and savings which is nothing short of amateurish.

 

The next sentence once again hints that the old rules are in effect when it says, " Pension and dividends earned in 2024 and remitted in the same year would be subjected to income tax". The implications are that if they were remitted in a di9fferent year, they would not be taxable, which is not true.

 

My last nitpick is with this, "Most people who hold the LTR will not have to pay tax as their savings are much more significant than their annual earnings", which is a gross assumption.

 

My overall impression of that letter is that it is unprofessional and incorrect, I would have to think long and hard what compelling reason existed for me to want to do business with them. Whether or not they know the rules is one thing, it seems they don't, at a minimum they can't write a professional business letter that is unambiguous.

[JohnnyBD]

16 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The letter above is very ambiguous and shows a lack of understanding regarding the rules. The first sentence, "LTR Visa holders are tax exempt from income remitted into Thailand as long it wasn't earned in the same year" implies the old rules governing remittances is still in effect, which it is not.

 

The second sentence, "For example, any earnings before 2024 (savings) remitted into Thailand in 2024 will not be subjected to income tax", confuses earnings and savings which is nothing short of amateurish.

 

The next sentence once again hints that the old rules are in effect when it says, " Pension and dividends earned in 2024 and remitted in the same year would be subjected to income tax". The implications are that if they were remitted in a di9fferent year, they would not be taxable, which is not true.

 

My last nitpick is with this, "Most people who hold the LTR will not have to pay tax as their savings are much more significant than their annual earnings", which is a gross assumption.

 

My overall impression of that letter is that it is unprofessional and incorrect, I would have to think long and hard what compelling reason existed for me to want to do business with them. Whether or not they know the rules is one thing, it seems they don't, at a minimum they can't write a professional business letter that is unambiguous.

I agree. It surpised me too. I know he used before 2024 income as just an example, (because RD has already said pre-2024 income doesn't count for anyone), but when he talked about income in 2024 being taxable if remitted in 2024, that really surpised me. What's the point in getting a LTR visa if that's the case. That doesn't give LTRs any special privileges over non-LTRs. It just confirms to me that everyone is not on the same page, not even some of the agencies. I wonder what some of the LTR visa holders will think of this. Maybe these questions have already been answered by BOI on their website. I hope so...

Edited April 17 by JohnnyBD
typo

[Dogmatix]

4 hours ago, stat said:

The only reason I can think if that they only issued 5500 LTR visa and were hoping for a lot more.

 

Right the guy that sold the Prayut cabinet on the LTR visa scheme projected a million LTR visas in a fairly short space of time.  Now that he and the Prayut government are gone, this may well be an orphaned project.  It was put under the BOI which is part of the PM's office to prevent Immigration interfering with it and they must have been furious.  At the time the tax exemption wasn't thought a big deal because it was so easy to avoid tax on foreign source income by remitting in the following year.  But now it is a big deal.  Since LTR no longer has a champion in the cabinet and it has sold far, far less than billed, it would easy to see it scaled down with some privileges withdrawn, e.g. the tax exemption, in future.  But since that came from a Royal Decree, it takes a bit of effort to cancel it but it might happen when there are other amendments to the RC to be made through a Royal Decree or an Act of Parliament.

[Dogmatix]

2 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

I just received the following email regarding monies remitted to Thailand for LTR visa holders. It will definitely factor into my decision on whether to buy a LTR visa or just stay in my home country for 7 months next year when I need to remit big monies for a new condo and to replenish my THB accounts.

 

Dear Sir,

 

LTR Visa holders are tax exempt from income remitted into Thailand as long it wasn't earned in the same year. For example, any earnings before 2024 (savings) remitted into Thailand in 2024 will not be subjected to income tax.

 

Pension and dividends earned in 2024 and remitted in the same year would be subjected to income tax. We advise our clients to wait until the following tax year (calendar year in Thailand) to remit this income. Most people who hold the LTR will not have to pay tax as their savings are much more significant than their annual earnings.

 

You would meet all the requirements as a "Wealthy Pensioner" based on the information you provided. The success of your application will be dependent on the supporting evidence you are able to provide.

 

If you have any questions or would like to retain our services, please do not hesitate to contact us.

 

Sincerely,

Xxxx Xxxxx International * I blocked Company name to be polite

 

 

This company's advice is in line with Royal Decree 743 and spot on about foreign income being taxable, if remitted in the same year it arose.  The only part I would question is whether dividends earned in the prior tax year would be exempt, the decree is specific about what type of income is exempt and it doesn't include dividend income or capital gains from equities. It specifies exemption only for income "...from an employment, or from business carried on abroad, or from a property situated abroad, and brought into Thailand."  Interestingly pension income is not specifically exempted which may be a blow to LTR visa holders in the wealthy pension category, if interpreted literally by the RD.  However, it could be argued that an occupational private pension is income from an employment but a private pension set up by the pensioner which is not directly paid by the former employer would be a stretch.  This interpretation also cannot be applied to state pensions, although US SS is exempted in the US DTA. In addition there is no mention of interest income or any other investment income other than from property, e.g. gains from precious metals or crypto.  They could have just said LTR visa holders were exempt from tax on any assessible income under Section 40 from the prior year but that is not what they said. 

 

It is interesting that the tax exemption offered to LTR holders by the BOI was at the time of the Royal Decree the same tax exemption offered to everyone. Whether by luck or judgement the BOI managed to get it put into law, so that LTR holders could retain the privilege in spite of a flaky reinterpretation by the director general, who is now permanent secretary for finance. 

Royal-Decree-743 LTR visa tax.pdf

Edited April 17 by Dogmatix

[Dogmatix]

1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:

I agree. It surpised me too. I know he used before 2024 income as just an example, (because RD has already said pre-2024 income doesn't count for anyone), but when he talked about income in 2024 being taxable if remitted in 2024, that really surpised me. What's the point in getting a LTR visa if that's the case. That doesn't give LTRs any special privileges over non-LTRs. It just confirms to me that everyone is not on the same page, not even some of the agencies. I wonder what some of the LTR visa holders will think of this. Maybe these questions have already been answered by BOI on their website. I hope so...

 

As you say 2024 was just used as an example because it is the current year but in 2025 LTR holders will have exemption on remitting the types of income specified in the Royal Decree that were generated in 2024, which will not be possible for those who are not LTR visa holders, including Thai citizens.

[JohnnyBD]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The second sentence, "For example, any earnings before 2024 (savings) remitted into Thailand in 2024 will not be subjected to income tax", confuses earnings and savings which is nothing short of amateurish.

I could see this statement as meaning, any earnings in 2023, becomes savings in 2024 and will not not be taxable if remitted by LTRs in 2024.  And, any earnings in 2024 then becomes savings if remitted in 2025. Mr. Dogmatix below seemed to have a pretty good explanation that makes sense. I'm just trying to figure out the rules as it applies to my situation, so I don't get hung out to dry next year.

 

49 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

This company's advice is in line with Royal Decree 743 and spot on about foreign income being taxable, if remitted in the same year it arose.  The only part I would question is whether dividends earned in the prior tax year would be exempt, the decree is specific about what type of income is exempt and it doesn't include dividend income or capital gains from equities. It specifies exemption only for income "...from an employment, or from business carried on abroad, or from a property situated abroad, and brought into Thailand."  Interestingly pension income is not specifically exempted which may be a blow to LTR visa holders in the wealthy pension category, if interpreted literally by the RD.  However, it could be argued that an occupational private pension is income from an employment but a private pension set up by the pensioner which is not directly paid by the former employer would be a stretch.  This interpretation also cannot be applied to state pensions, although US SS is exempted in the US DTA. In addition there is no mention of interest income or any other investment income other than from property, e.g. gains from precious metals or crypto.  They could have just said LTR visa holders were exempt from tax on any assessible income under Section 40 from the prior year but that is not what they said.

 

Edited April 17 by JohnnyBD
typo

[4myr]

42 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

 

This company's advice is in line with Royal Decree 743 and spot on about foreign income being taxable, if remitted in the same year it arose.  The only part I would question is whether dividends earned in the prior tax year would be exempt, the decree is specific about what type of income is exempt and it doesn't include dividend income or capital gains from equities. It specifies exemption only for income "...from an employment, or from business carried on abroad, or from a property situated abroad, and brought into Thailand."  Interestingly pension income is not specifically exempted which may be a blow to LTR visa holders in the wealthy pension category, if interpreted literally by the RD.  However, it could be argued that an occupational private pension is income from an employment but a private pension set up by the pensioner which is not directly paid by the former employer would be a stretch.  This interpretation also cannot be applied to state pensions, although US SS is exempted in the US DTA. In addition there is no mention of interest income or any other investment income other than from property, e.g. gains from precious metals or crypto.  They could have just said LTR visa holders were exempt from tax on any assessible income under Section 40 from the prior year but that is not what they said. 

 

It is interesting that the tax exemption offered to LTR holders by the BOI was at the time of the Royal Decree the same tax exemption offered to everyone. Whether by luck or judgement the BOI managed to get it put into law, so that LTR holders could retain the privilege in spite of a flaky reinterpretation by the director general, who is now permanent secretary for finance. 

Royal-Decree-743 LTR visa tax.pdf 124.69 kB · 0 downloads

 

Seems to me that above exemptions [I highlighted] are covered in my country's DTA including state pensions.