Thermal runaway dangers that seem to be overlooked!

[sometimewoodworker]

There seems to be little attention being paid to the rather extreme problems that can and are happening with large scale deployment of big (anything over 1kWh) batteries.

 

there is currently a rather large fire in Australia which is a LiFePO4 battery bank that is one of electric Jesus products  that is supposed not to allow the problem to happen. The installation is not fire resistant and the fire is in one of these banks and could easily spread to more.

 

The vapours are rather toxic and there is no fire suppression available and the firefighting is just to let it burn and use hasmat PPE if you get anywhere near it.

these are the nasties when the batteries are not on fire

 

and there is the ship outside the Dutch coast that burned for a week and when back in port there were still cars that were so damaged that after a month were still having to be submerged in water as they were starting to burn.

 

So if you have a battery bank. DO NOT have it in or close to your house. If you have an EV charge point do not have it in an enclosed space and charge the vehicle in an area that is separate from your house. 

Do not park close to an EV as this is a risk, it was a single battery that caused all the damage and was only controlled to cause such little damage because there was an aviation fire department within a few hundred meters 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by sometimewoodworker

[Crossy]

Story here 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/sep/27/tesla-lithium-battery-fire-bouldercombe-energy-storage-site-project-rockhampton

 

It's a Tesla site which I understand is Li-ion not LiFePO4.

 

But excellent advice in the OP about where (or where not) to place your pack.

 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

4 minutes ago, Crossy said:

@sometimewoodworker do you have a link to the news story??

 

https://www.bing.com/news/search?q=australia+battery+fire

 

[OneMoreFarang]

The problem is well known. And it seems often ignored.

Somehow the green fanatics pretend all electric is just perfect. It's not!

[Crossy]

Bard AI on the Tesla Megapack 2 battery chemistry.

 

[KhunBENQ]

https://twitter.com/10NewsFirstQLD/status/1706930369541312849

[OneMoreFarang]

39 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

 

I am just watching this video. The guy explains what's going on and he does it in an entertaining way. Great video. Thanks 

[sometimewoodworker]

42 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I am just watching this video. The guy explains what's going on and he does it in an entertaining way. Great video. Thanks 

Thanks 

 

I haven’t brought up the fact that switching to EVs, while they maybe a great choice for an individual owner as long as they are treated with the respect that is vital to not becoming a marshmallow in your own burning property, are totally meaningless in the reduction of greenhouse gas production. Yes they may fractionally reduce the amount produced by a vehicle owner but you have to do a whole life analysis to find the small amount saved

 

anyway here are a few more educational videos. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by sometimewoodworker

[Bandersnatch]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Do not park close to an EV as this is a risk

If you are going to post sweeping statements like this without any supporting research nobody is going to take what you say seriously.

 

An anti EV YouTuber is not supporting research 

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/
 

[ExpatOilWorker]

Just wait until one of these rideable suitcase take down an airliner and a couple of hundred innocent souls.

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by ExpatOilWorker

[Lacessit]

11 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

If you are going to post sweeping statements like this without any supporting research nobody is going to take what you say seriously.

 

An anti EV YouTuber is not supporting research 

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/
 

Said YouTuber is not anti-EV, he is simply pointing out some of the myths that surround EV's. Such as the twaddle EV owners are saving the planet.

He has been a motoring journalist for many years, with a strong background in science and engineering. Shooting the messenger is no solution.

What you say about the frequency of EV fires is quite true. However, it is the intensity and toxicity of combustion products emanating from an EV battery fire which makes them several orders of magnitude more dangerous.

Fire-fighting crews can extinguish an ICE fire without much difficulty. Gasoline or diesel needs oxygen  to burn. They can't smother an EV fire, as it has its own oxygen supply in the battery chemistry.

[MJCM]

Original Post withdrawn

 

@ExpatOilWorker

 

Why people would buy such a contraption is beyond me. Guess it has to do with the "Selfie" generation

Edited September 27, 2023 by MJCM

[sometimewoodworker]

10 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

If you are going to post sweeping statements like this without any supporting research nobody is going to take what you say seriously.

 

An anti EV YouTuber is not supporting research 

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/
 

You haven’t done your homework. You should really understand the actual risks and inherent problems 

 

He is not remotely anti EV. He has owned an EV for a significant time and makes the point that they are a good choice for some owners.

 

The vast majority of EVs are young so it is natural that there will be fewer fires per 100,000 vehicles sold, they are almost all in the more expensive end of the market, making the numbers smaller again. 
 

His points are that for the vehicles that catch fire the risks are very significantly higher and virtually no fire service has been trained for them, that little to no thought has been involved in the citing of EV, charging points in multistorey car parks, as if there is a fire, it’s not going to be put out by the regular firefighting equipment vehicles which mostly contain petrol or diesel are going to make a multi story car park fire a huge disaster. 

[sometimewoodworker]

4 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

They can't smother an EV fire, as it has its own oxygen supply in the battery chemistry.

And that doesn’t even begin to be the problem as the energy density is also high.

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

And that doesn’t even begin to be the problem as the energy density is also high.

And getting higher, as vehicle manufacturers try to eliminate range anxiety.

[Bandersnatch]

6 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

He is not remotely anti EV

Post a video of his to support that statement.

 

7 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You haven’t done your homework. You should really understand the actual risks and inherent problems 

Unlike you I own an EV - I have done my research.

[ExpatOilWorker]

9 minutes ago, MJCM said:

Original Post withdrawn

 

@ExpatOilWorker

 

Why people would buy such a contraption is beyond me. Guess it has to do with the "Selfie" generation

It is an Asian thing, aka Chinese. You see grown up people riding around on them on the Skywalk in Bangkok. Nuts!!

[sometimewoodworker]

There is one point that I didn’t mention and that is, if you see an EV fire DO NOT approach it unless you have proper breathing protection as the byproducts include gaseous dangerously corrosive acids and poisonous vapours, so unless you want a potentially short, excruciating and deadly visit to an intensive care unit, go upwind and as far away as you can.

This is a case where trying to help is  potentially a death sentence 

 

Here is why you don’t park or charge EVs in your enclosed garage 

 

[eisfeld]

28 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Just wait until one of these rideable suitcase take down an airliner and a couple of hundred innocent souls.

 

What's the difference between that and a powerbank, laptop or anything else with a battery? Why is it a higher risk?

Edited September 27, 2023 by eisfeld

[sometimewoodworker]

17 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

Post a video of his to support that statement.

If he were anti EV he wouldn’t produce a video like this

 

he is just not stupid and doesn’t mince words

[sometimewoodworker]

9 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

What's the difference between that and a powerbank, laptop or anything else with a battery? Why is it a higher risk?

It’s a check in bag!!!

[eisfeld]

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

It’s a check in bag!!!

You can put laptops in check-in luggage. Anyways, this is getting off-topic.

[sometimewoodworker]

7 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

You can put laptops in check-in luggage. Anyways, this is getting off-topic.

https://www.delta.com/us/en/baggage/prohibited-or-restricted-items/robotic-machine-other#:~:text=PORTABLE ELECTRONIC DEVICES,not placed in checked baggage.

[ExpatOilWorker]

18 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

What's the difference between that and a powerbank, laptop or anything else with a battery? Why is it a higher risk?

In my view it is price, size and brand.

A no-name, cheap suitcase, with zero safety features and a large battery is way more risky than a brand name laptop battery. 

Cheap powerbanks are dangerous, but at lease airlines have size limits.

[Middle Aged Grouch]

The green and other environmental left wing terrorists are plainly destroying europe and the west. All with the complicity of the european or american politicans in power who see big bucks in the current dictatorship of the green-environmental terrorists and the other pro climate extremists.

[observer90210]

17 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

In my view it is price, size and brand.

A no-name, cheap suitcase, with zero safety features and a large battery is way more risky than a brand name laptop battery. 

Cheap powerbanks are dangerous, but at lease airlines have size limits.

Very true as even some iPhones or iWatches from Apple have burst.

[MJCM]

5 minutes ago, observer90210 said:

Very true as even some iPhones or iWatches from Apple have burst.

Why just post about Apple? other manufactures also had their issues

 

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by MJCM

[observer90210]

8 minutes ago, MJCM said:

Why just post about Apple? other manufactures also had their issues

 

 

of course they have. but as I did not have direct experience, I prefer not to rant about what I have not directly or personnaly experienced through close acquaintances. Comprendo ?

[Woof999]

15 minutes ago, MJCM said:

Why just post about Apple? other manufactures also had their issues

I read "even some iPhones or iWatches from Apple have burst" as something along the lines of "even some of the best can have failures" rather than "Apple is one of the worst for failures".

 

In other words, it was a positive for Apple. As someone who doesn't eat Apples, I didn't find that easy to write.

[Lacessit]

56 minutes ago, eisfeld said:

What's the difference between that and a powerbank, laptop or anything else with a battery? Why is it a higher risk?

It's about the amount of stored energy available to support a fire.

A typical household powerwall is about 5 kWhr. Teslas run to 85 kWhr. That's a lot of stored energy.

 

Size matters.