More details on Thai taxation of overseas income

[NanLaew]

8 hours ago, hondoelsinore said:

 Certain people always feel compelled to make it out that they are just doing the right thing, when in reality they are just going the cheapest route. It seems to be in their DNA, must be in yours as well...

 

I said tax relief and tax mitigation. That is NOT the same as tax avoidance. Did you know that are some people out there who can't handle the complications of working out their legal tax deductions or simply can't be bothered and trust in government to be doing them right? They also miss out on totally legal "tax relief and mitigation"?

 

Unless of course you are the sort of shopper who eschews the bargain 2-for-1 specials as it is so obviously seen as just "going the cheapest route"?

[andux]

37 minutes ago, Lorry said:

This would be the logical conclusion of Q8 and Q9.

I think it would work the way you describe it, 2024 and 2025 only.

 

But another poster has warned already that if you repeat this forever they probably won't accept it.

Well, if it's the law, it's the law. It's what the rich people will do then.

 

So, to clarify: the new 'loophole' will be to alternate living in Thailand in that fashion: stay 179 days one year, the next one the full year, 179 days the following year, then a full year, and so on.

 

That way one can always have a supply of tax-free money to bring into Thailand.

Edited October 5, 2023 by andux

[Lorry]

36 minutes ago, andux said:

Well, if it's the law, it's the law

It's not the law.

It's the current interpretation of the law, by the RD.

Such an interpretation can easily be changed,  by another RD order or by a court,  for example. It can also be changed retroactively (because "the law didn't change,  we only just found out the correct meaning of the law")

 

This method has been recommended by an accounting firm dealing with rich people,  and in 5 years,  we will know whether it has worked. 

 

[Lorry]

2 hours ago, andux said:

Well, if it's the law, it's the law. It's what the rich people will do then.

 

So, to clarify: the new 'loophole' will be to alternate living in Thailand in that fashion: stay 179 days one year, the next one the full year, 179 days the following year, then a full year, and so on.

 

That way one can always have a supply of tax-free money to bring into Thailand.

PS reading the Q&A again,  there is a hitch:

They say many times, that they are only taxing income from years in which you have been tax resident in Thailand (e.g. rental income from renting out your London flat in 2020, when you stayed 200 days in Thailand)

This income will  be taxable when you bring it into Thailand,  no matter in which year. 

Nowhere do they explicitly state that you also have to be a tax resident in the year the money is brought into Thailand. If that's not necessary, the consequences would be enormous. You could owe taxes for sending old income from 2020 into Thailand even if in the year of sending you are not in Thailand at all. The loophole would be closed,  but if you ever have stayed in Thailand more than 180 days, you better never send money into Thailand ever after.

[hondoelsinore]

3 hours ago, NanLaew said:

I said tax relief and tax mitigation. That is NOT the same as tax avoidance. Did you know that are some people out there who can't handle the complications of working out their legal tax deductions or simply can't be bothered and trust in government to be doing them right? They also miss out on totally legal "tax relief and mitigation"?

 

Unless of course you are the sort of shopper who eschews the bargain 2-for-1 specials as it is so obviously seen as just "going the cheapest route"?

It must be a drag to be such a know it all... never said anything about avoiding anything, I could give a rats ass about what ANYBODY does with their  personal income tax, but I have to admit that I've grown extremely tired of the ridiculous and unnecessary embellishment on what someones particular choices might be, that for some strange reason just has to be shared to total strangers on a public forum. It was just simply a statement and if you don't know the OP, then why would you care? So... I am sure you have a fragile little ego and we will have to do the childish keyboard warrior fight of who might be the wittier one, until one of us finally gets tired of the stupidity and blocks the other one. 

[beammeup]

It is concerning that they have not made much of an effort to clarify any of this. It appears as though they don't give a $h!t about the expat community.

[StayinThailand2much]

On 10/4/2023 at 3:01 AM, webfact said:

If Thailand has a double tax agreement with the country where the money comes from, the tax paid in that foreign country can be deducted in Thailand according to the rules in the double tax agreement.

Meaning what?? Any transfer will have a withholding tax deducted which one has to reclaim via filing a tax report?

[beammeup]

13 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

Meaning what?? Any transfer will have a withholding tax deducted which one has to reclaim via filing a tax report?

I think you just have to do a bit of math if and when you do your tax return.

[Hamma]

On 10/4/2023 at 11:58 AM, hondoelsinore said:

Easy to play the fair game with the typical liberal mindset of civic responsibility when the tax rate of your residency is lower than your mother country, it's just not necessary to virtue signal to strangers on the Internet. 

I feel the need to elaborate a little more: I am not a Danish citizen, but lived in the country for almost 40 years, worked and paid my taxes. They are high looked at it from outside, but when you think of what you get for them they are much more reasonable. I did not have to think about social security or health insurance, not paying at all for hospital, doctors consultations, my children went to good kindergartens and good schools. They received a first class university education ( 1 MA in political science and 2 medical doctors, all three with excellent jobs) for free from two universities ranking on 82th and 149th of the ranking system of the worlds best universities (Copenhagen and Aarhus). Not only did they get a totally free education until the age of 28-29, they also received money to live for since they were 18 years old. No expenses for parents or students, and if they had occasional jobs it was to finance travels and alike. -  I think we received a fair share for my taxes. - But now I live full time in Thailand for the sixth year, nothing left in Denmark except children, grandchildren and a pension generated from my 40 years working in the country. And I think it would be reasonable to pay my taxes in this country. Of course not the same amount like in Danmark, because the standard is not comparable. In Thailand I need to pay for a lot of things I got for my taxes in Denmark like health insurance or education. But I still think it is reasonable to pay taxes in the country you are part of. And I think it is nonsocial to avoid paying taxes. - If you still think I am "playing the fair game with the typical liberal mindset of civic responsibility when the tax rate of your residency is lower than your mother country" you have missed some very important details - and maybe you cannot see that.

[Puccini]

21 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Correct, but as some have suggested here, if one choses to avoid taxation in any shape or form and simply pull your weekly/monthly stipend from overseas via a local ATM, then the fee is essentially the same as tax, ie. a deduction or an amount of YOUR money that a third party takes from you.

 

This explanation is not acceptable and is completely false. An ATM fee, nor any fee of any bank, is "essentially the same as tax"

[Jenkins9039]

It's covered in this released by the Revenue department (in Thai).

QnA41_2.pdf

[Puccini]

6 minutes ago, Jenkins9039 said:

It's covered in this released by the Revenue department (in Thai).

QnA41_2.pdf 418.36 kB · 2 downloads

Yes, it is, as far as the Thai text goes, but it obviously does not cover a faulty and incomprehensible English translation.

 

[Jenkins9039]

4 minutes ago, Puccini said:

Yes, it is, as far as the Thai text goes, but it obviously does not cover a faulty and incomprehensible English translation.

 

Seems clear as mud as the wife translated it.

[Puccini]

9 minutes ago, Jenkins9039 said:

Seems clear as mud as the wife translated it.

It is unkind of you to blame your wife, with whom you presumably mean your wife, for it. The member who kindly posted a partial English translation clearly stated that it was a "translation from Google"

[Jenkins9039]

8 minutes ago, Puccini said:

It is unkind of you to blame your wife, with whom you presumably mean your wife, for it. The member who kindly posted a partial English translation clearly stated that it was a "translation from Google"

Who blamed their wife?

 

You seem pissed (drunk)

[Lorry]

2 hours ago, Jenkins9039 said:

It's covered in this released by the Revenue department (in Thai).

QnA41_2.pdf 418.36 kB · 2 downloads

It is a very clear explanation that even most aliens might be able to understand. 

I posted an understandable translation here

 

 

[Puccini]

2 hours ago, Jenkins9039 said:

Who blamed their wife?

 

You seem pissed (drunk)

@Jenkins9039 did when he posted "Seems clear as mud as the wife translated it."

https://aseannow.com/topic/1308279-more-details-on-thai-taxation-of-overseas-income/?do=findComment&comment=18398728

 

[NONG CHOK]

I've got money invested in an Australian term deposit which is my only income. When it matures I have money sent to my AU bank account. I then send it to Thailand when needed. As this sum is below the tax threshold no tax is payable in Australia. So would my money transferred to my Thai bank account be classed as income or savings?

 

[Geir Rasch]

On 10/4/2023 at 10:24 PM, andux said:

 

Yeah but now the year doesn't matter.

 

Let's say that you sell stocks in USA today, for a capital gain of $50,000, and bring that money to Thailand next year (2024). 

 

With the new law, those $50,000 have to be declared and taxed in Thailand. In the past, those $50,000 were legally tax-free and didn't need to be declared. USA doesn't tax capital gains of non-residents, and Thailand didn't tax deferred income.

 

So, yes, that changed, and makes Thailand less attractive. Yes, I know, you should pay tax blah blah blah. But it's not a good deal to pay tax in a country that gives you nothing in return, no social security, no pension, no healthcare, no sidewalks, not even the possibility of volunteering at a local hospital.

 

Good weather, cheap prices and easy girls, but that gets old after a while...

 

Well, we may differ about his. If there is a tax treaty between Thailand and your country, that is to avoid double tax. Tax paid to Thailand for this year will be deduct from tax in your country. Savings from earlier years are finished tax in your country, so it would be double tax if it also was taxed in Thailand, and that is what the tax treaty are ment to avoid. So I do not think there will be any changes from todays practice. Time will show which of us are right ????.

[andux]

11 hours ago, Geir Rasch said:

Well, we may differ about his. If there is a tax treaty between Thailand and your country, that is to avoid double tax. Tax paid to Thailand for this year will be deduct from tax in your country. Savings from earlier years are finished tax in your country, so it would be double tax if it also was taxed in Thailand, and that is what the tax treaty are ment to avoid. So I do not think there will be any changes from todays practice. Time will show which of us are right ????.

 

I don't think you really read my post.

 

In the past you could actually bring capital gains into Thailand without paying a dime in tax, legally. You could bring a million dollars of tax-free capital gains if you deferred them till next fiscal year, and invest them in the real estate market in Thailand. All legal.

 

Starting next year, you won't be able to do that. If you bring a million dollars of formerly tax-free capital gains, the tax in 2024 will be around $300,000. That's a couple of properties lost in tax.

 

So it does make Thailand less attractive for resident investors. The solution is to stay less than 6 months per year in Thailand to avoid having to pay those $300,000, or invest the money somewhere else.

Edited October 11, 2023 by andux

[Geir Rasch]

On 10/11/2023 at 11:00 AM, andux said:

 

I don't think you really read my post.

 

In the past you could actually bring capital gains into Thailand without paying a dime in tax, legally. You could bring a million dollars of tax-free capital gains if you deferred them till next fiscal year, and invest them in the real estate market in Thailand. All legal.

 

Starting next year, you won't be able to do that. If you bring a million dollars of formerly tax-free capital gains, the tax in 2024 will be around $300,000. That's a couple of properties lost in tax.

 

So it does make Thailand less attractive for resident investors. The solution is to stay less than 6 months per year in Thailand to avoid having to pay those $300,000, or invest the money somewhere else.

Not sure what you mean with tax-free capital gains. If that means that it is money never taxed, sure you should pay tax in Thailand. If the money is already taxed in USA I cant see how they will be taxed again in Thailand. 
This is money of a different world than what live in, so about this I know nothing. My consern is about pension and salary ????.

[Metapod]

taxation is theft

[fusion58]

On 10/5/2023 at 5:33 PM, Lorry said:

They say many times, that they are only taxing income from years in which you have been tax resident in Thailand (e.g. rental income from renting out your London flat in 2020, when you stayed 200 days in Thailand)

This income will  be taxable when you bring it into Thailand,  no matter in which year. 

That’s alarming if they mean foreigners can be taxed retroactively for every year they have been a “tax resident” in Thailand, i.e., indefinitely far back in the past.

 

My biggest question right now is “when will this <deleted> go into effect?”

 

I want to make sure I’m the <deleted> out of here before that happens.

[andux]

4 hours ago, Geir Rasch said:

Not sure what you mean with tax-free capital gains. If that means that it is money never taxed, sure you should pay tax in Thailand. If the money is already taxed in USA I cant see how they will be taxed again in Thailand. 
This is money of a different world than what live in, so about this I know nothing. My consern is about pension and salary ????.

????‍♂️

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, fusion58 said:

That’s alarming if they mean foreigners can be taxed retroactively for every year they have been a “tax resident” in Thailand, i.e., indefinitely far back in the past.

 

My biggest question right now is “when will this <deleted> go into effect?”

 

I want to make sure I’m the <deleted> out of here before that happens.

Applies to money remitted into Thailand after 1 Jan 2024

[jacko45k]

4 hours ago, Lorry said:

Applies to money remitted into Thailand after 1 Jan 2024

It would seem surprising that all tax liability of foreigners who have been living in Thailand prior is waived!

[garygooner]

11 hours ago, fusion58 said:

e.g. rental income from renting out your London flat in 2020, when you stayed 200 days in Thailand)

This income will  be taxable when you bring it into Thailand,  no matter in which year. 

Then don't bring that money to Thailand after 01/01/24.  

[kamma]

On 10/4/2023 at 9:29 AM, Srikcir said:

A political mantra comes to mind reading about foreigner concerns about how the proposed new Thai income tax would/might be applied:

Taxation without Representation.

 

Taxed Thais taxpayers can at least vote and/or appeal to their Parliamentary representatives regarding legislation and policy.

Thai taxed resident foreigners have no political representation in Thailand.

 

Therefore, as shocking it might be to the Thai electorate and incumbent government, it would be fair and democratic that taxpaying resident foreigners can vote, at least in the National Election.

LoL!

 

The right to vote comes with citizenship not because you pay tax!!