Give 500,000 UK overseas State Pensioners with frozen pensions parity - Petitions.

[doctormann]

I'm not sure that removal of the 15-year limit will actually help when it comes to voting from overseas.

I can only state what happened when I tried to vote in the BREXIT referendum so YMMV, as they say.

The postal voting papers were sent out by snail mail and arrived in my mail box exactly one day before the voting deadline.  Not even enough time to return by EMS - absolutely useless!

[lamyai3]

14 hours ago, Cardano said:

Reciprocal with whom? The Thai government?

There's no reciprocal agreement with Thailand. These treaties sometimes go back decades, the Philippines one was sought back in the 1980's by the Philippine government. 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reciprocal-agreements/reciprocal-agreements

[Eff1n2ret]

59 minutes ago, lamyai3 said:

There's no reciprocal agreement with Thailand. These treaties sometimes go back decades, the Philippines one was sought back in the 1980's by the Philippine government. 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/reciprocal-agreements/reciprocal-agreements

In fact all those reciprocal agreements go back several decades. As part of the argument put to the ECHR, Blair's lawyers argued that pension increases can only be paid in countries with which the UK has 'reciprocal agreements', and that to extend increases outside these arrangements would negate their ability to conclude other such agreements in the future. However, that argument is utterly threadbare, given that the government announced well over twenty years ago its intention not to make any further reciprocal agreements. But the ECHR bought it anyway.

Quite why the British Government needs an agreement with another country to pay us whatever they decide is beyond me. We are victims of a totally anachronistic system, but it has been that way long before any of us decided to retire to the affected countries. The collective votes even of all 500,000 are spread potentially across 650 constituencies, so we have no real clout and our compatriots in Blighty don't care about us. A few thousand votes on yet another petition won't change anything.

[Eff1n2ret]

For anyone who wants to try and get their head round it, here it is:-

 

CARSON AND OTHERS v. THE UNITED KINGDOM (coe.int)

[Georgealbert]

45 minutes ago, Eff1n2ret said:

For anyone who wants to try and get their head round it, here it is:-

 

CARSON AND OTHERS v. THE UNITED KINGDOM (coe.int)

Interesting read, thanks for the link.

[billd766]

7 hours ago, Pumpuynarak said:

I'm only quoting what i have read in the press. I assumed that at next years election we would be able to vote but...............????????

Me too ... But

[RayC]

So far as pension increases are concerned, imo the fairest way would be to apply the 'triple lock rate' of the country in which an expat resides. However, that is probably impractical for administrative reasons so the UK rate rise should apply.

 

Wrt voting in UK general elections, these are mainly contested on the basis of differences in domestic policy, which do not directly affect expats. Therefore, why should this group get a vote on such matters?

[Pumpuynarak]

15 hours ago, RayC said:

Wrt voting in UK general elections, these are mainly contested on the basis of differences in domestic policy, which do not directly affect expats. Therefore, why should this group get a vote on such matters?

A valid point ????

[billd766]

23 hours ago, RayC said:

So far as pension increases are concerned, imo the fairest way would be to apply the 'triple lock rate' of the country in which an expat resides. However, that is probably impractical for administrative reasons so the UK rate rise should apply.

 

Wrt voting in UK general elections, these are mainly contested on the basis of differences in domestic policy, which do not directly affect expats. Therefore, why should this group get a vote on such matters?

Why should there be taxation without representation?

 

[RayC]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

Why should there be taxation without representation?

 

I agree. Imo an individual's personal income should be taxed in the country where they reside.

[Pumpuynarak]

14 hours ago, RayC said:

I agree. Imo an individual's personal income should be taxed in the country where they reside.

Never going to work as the UK HMRC allows any income used for pension provision tax free whether its the employer or the employee contributions.

[Eff1n2ret]

On 10/13/2023 at 7:19 AM, doctormann said:

I'm not sure that removal of the 15-year limit will actually help when it comes to voting from overseas.

I can only state what happened when I tried to vote in the BREXIT referendum so YMMV, as they say.

The postal voting papers were sent out by snail mail and arrived in my mail box exactly one day before the voting deadline.  Not even enough time to return by EMS - absolutely useless!

The only practical way to vote from here (and I suspect almost anywhere else from overseas) is to appoint a proxy. If you have a family member or a friend whom you trust to vote as you wish that works ok. My son does it for me. Once set up, renewal is a simple exchange of emails every year, at least that's the way it works with my local authority.

[billd766]

2 hours ago, Eff1n2ret said:

The only practical way to vote from here (and I suspect almost anywhere else from overseas) is to appoint a proxy. If you have a family member or a friend whom you trust to vote as you wish that works ok. My son does it for me. Once set up, renewal is a simple exchange of emails every year, at least that's the way it works with my local authority.

It did for me even when my proxy voter moved to a different town, right up to the time I reached the 15 year limit, and then it stopped.

 

Perhaps in 2024 the voting rights for overseas voters will restore that.

 

OTOH it IS a politicians promise and that is worth whatever people believe it is worth.

 

I personally I am not going to hold my breath over it.

[RayC]

9 hours ago, Pumpuynarak said:

Never going to work as the UK HMRC allows any income used for pension provision tax free whether its the employer or the employee contributions.

I don't expect any UK government to change the law so that only residents are taxed on their income, but I don't understand why the law governing pension provision should be a barrier?

[Eff1n2ret]

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

It did for me even when my proxy voter moved to a different town, right up to the time I reached the 15 year limit, and then it stopped.

 

Perhaps in 2024 the voting rights for overseas voters will restore that.

It should do, the legislation has already been passed, but I wonder how efficient local authorities will be in implementing it. I'm coming up to 14 years away, so am still in the system, and don't expect to have much of a problem. Perhaps you won't, as you were previously registered, but how it will work out for people who have been out for a long time remains to be seen. I haven't read the legislation, but I remember seeing something about them wanting to take tougher measures against voting fraud, so I don't know if that will make it harder to get registered, or for postal voting. My son does my vote by post.

Most commentators are still talking about an election next autumn. If anyone wants to be registered I would advise finding out about it and applying before the summer.

[billd766]

37 minutes ago, Eff1n2ret said:

It should do, the legislation has already been passed, but I wonder how efficient local authorities will be in implementing it. I'm coming up to 14 years away, so am still in the system, and don't expect to have much of a problem. Perhaps you won't, as you were previously registered, but how it will work out for people who have been out for a long time remains to be seen. I haven't read the legislation, but I remember seeing something about them wanting to take tougher measures against voting fraud, so I don't know if that will make it harder to get registered, or for postal voting. My son does my vote by post.

Most commentators are still talking about an election next autumn. If anyone wants to be registered I would advise finding out about it and applying before the summer.

I have to dredge my memory banks back to 2013/04/05.

 

IIRC I first did an internet search for the 15 year rule.

 

That asked me where I was staying in the UK and which I left the UK, and either it turned up with the local council website.

 

I found within the council website the voter registration contact details and went from there.

 

They were very helpful and explained what was needed when my friend moved.

 

My 15 years expired in 2021, so I will send them an email sometime this week and ask for an update.

[chickenslegs]

There are an estimated 4.7 million British citizens living abroad.

https://www.oecd.org/education/emigrants_report_final_feb_2015.pdf

 

The average constituency MP represents just under 70,000 British citizens in the UK.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/elections/electoralregistration/bulletins/electoralstatisticsforuk/2017

 

On that basis British expats should have around 67 MPs to represent them in Parliament.

 

We don't need reciprocal arrangements, we need equal representation in the House of Commons. If 67 seats were up for grabs we would soon see changes.

 

IMO 

[Pumpuynarak]

14 hours ago, RayC said:

I don't expect any UK government to change the law so that only residents are taxed on their income, but I don't understand why the law governing pension provision should be a barrier?

The HMRC allows tax relief on pension contributions so it would follow that when the pension is realised they would want to tax the pension income not allow it to be taxed elsewhere, ''you can't have you cake and eat it''

I am assuming that ''anyone's personal income'' would include their pension income.

[OJAS]

On 10/11/2023 at 2:32 PM, billd766 said:

I am sure that there are a few or even many things that I have forgotten

Just 1 omission from your comprehensive list that I can think of, Bill, relating to the cumbersomely bureaucratic procedure which has been inflicted on those needing to get UK official documents legalised for use in Thailand - spelt out in all its "wondrous glory" in the following link:

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b173648e5274a190383bc14/Legalisation_info_June_2018.pdf

 

[RayC]

7 hours ago, Pumpuynarak said:

The HMRC allows tax relief on pension contributions so it would follow that when the pension is realised they would want to tax the pension income not allow it to be taxed elsewhere, ''you can't have you cake and eat it''

I am assuming that ''anyone's personal income'' would include their pension income.

Thanks for the explanation. Fair point. 

 

There are ways to circumvent the issue though. When I worked in Belgium, pension contributions - up to a ceiling,

- lowered one's taxable income significantly (Income tax rates in Belgium are very high) and an individual's pension pot was then taxed at maturity (@10% if I remember correctly?). 

 

All hypothetical of course. Imo there is next to no chance of any UK government either agreeing that 1) a UK national's (pension) income should be taxed where they reside and/or 2) the 'triple lock' being applied to expats residing in countries where it is not currently in operation.

[OJAS]

16 hours ago, chickenslegs said:

We don't need reciprocal arrangements, we need equal representation in the House of Commons. If 67 seats were up for grabs we would soon see changes.

Agreed - the French certainly seem to have been able to secure representation for their foreign expats along these lines in their National Assembly:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituencies_for_French_residents_overseas

 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, OJAS said:

Just 1 omission from your comprehensive list that I can think of, Bill, relating to the cumbersomely bureaucratic procedure which has been inflicted on those needing to get UK official documents legalised for use in Thailand - spelt out in all its "wondrous glory" in the following link:

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b173648e5274a190383bc14/Legalisation_info_June_2018.pdf

 

If it happens, I wonder If I would have to complete it as I have no assets in the UK.

 

It would mean an overnight trip and an 800 km return trip for a nil response.