Thailand needs to calm down it's rush to EV !

[BenStark]

8 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

And you remind me of someone with a hair loss problem.

Again the same poor netiquette as your brother in arms in this thread, and confirms you have actually no idea about what you read and what you're talking about.

 

In that post I ridiculed that creams against hair loss work, but someone with limited brain function would of course not be able to comprehend that.

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

What, they can't afford ATs ?

In the UK if you learn in a AT, your license won't allow you to drive a manual.

So everyone learns to drive using a stick shift.

ATs are for the elderly and disabled IMHO.

[JBChiangRai]

4 minutes ago, BenStark said:

Again the same poor netiquette as your brother in arms in this thread, and confirms you have actually no idea about what you read and what you're talking about.

 

In that post I ridiculed that creams against hair loss work, but someone with limited brain function would of course not be able to comprehend that.

I suspect your intelligence is directly proportional to your sense of humour.

[JBChiangRai]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

What, they can't afford ATs ?

.

40 years ago, I got my first and only new manual transmission a Mercedes  190E, I think it was about US$1,000 more for an automatic gearbox, about another 7%. It was a company car and the automatic was too expensive for my grade.

 

The international group I worked for also owned Inchcape, a Mercedes dealership.
 

Automatics are considered a luxury in the UK and rarely specified on small cars.

[In the jungle]

2 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

40 years ago, I got my first and only new manual transmission a Mercedes  190E, I think it was about US$1,000 more for an automatic gearbox, about another 7%. It was a company car and the automatic was too expensive for my grade.

 

The international group I worked for also owned Inchcape, a Mercedes dealership.
 

Automatics are considered a luxury in the UK and rarely specified on small cars.

Automatics are for people who can't drive.

[JBChiangRai]

7 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

Automatics are for people who can't drive.

And I thought you had no sense of humour 

[In the jungle]

"Flood the zone with excrement" (I paraphrase to avoid censorship)

 

That infamous quote is by far right activist and convicted criminal Steve Bannon.  He advocated it as a technique for dealing with opposing voices particularly on the internet.  You just drown out the  opposition's opinions under the weight of column inches and repeated posts.  What you say does not have to be true or rational there just has to be an overwhelming amount of content.

 

That is the technique you see deployed here by what I will charitably call EV enthusiasts.  Just take a look at who are the most frequent posters.

Edited October 16, 2023 by In the jungle

[In the jungle]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

And I thought you had no sense of humour 

Sure I have and in this thread I discovered you do too. 

[BKKBike09]

1 hour ago, Bandersnatch said:

Next time you’re driving by your local BYD dealer, take the BYD Seal for a test drive. It has very impressive handling and is shod in 19inch 235/45-profile Continental SportContact rubber.

 

The 3.8sec 0-100kph AWD version has semi adaptive suspension and Intelligent Torque Adaption Control.

The Seal is a fine looking vehicle (saw a black one on the road yesterday). My main worry with it would be flooding; my soi floods regularly and much worse in last two years (to the extent of having 3 inches of water in the house once last year and once this year). The water also goes down much more slowly than before (I've lived in that soi 15 years), so although the Seal battery is, indeed, 'sealed', it could be sitting in water for several hours. 

 

Would be interesting to test drive, though. Particularly to see how well developed the various 'adaptive' tech really is. As I've said in other posts about the Atto, things like the adaptive cruise control and autonomous emergency braking are sub-par. Last thing you want if really pushing a car is assistive tech that's okay but not great. Sometimes better (and more fun) to turn it all off and see how things go ...

 

[BKKBike09]

19 minutes ago, In the jungle said:

Automatics are for people who can't drive.

Although if you're trying to get from A to B very quickly on busy roads, while also working a radio and other kit, automatic is quite handy. 

[motdaeng]

11 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

The Seal is a fine looking vehicle (saw a black one on the road yesterday). My main worry with it would be flooding; my soi floods regularly and much worse in last two years (to the extent of having 3 inches of water in the house once last year and once this year). The water also goes down much more slowly than before (I've lived in that soi 15 years), so although the Seal battery is, indeed, 'sealed', it could be sitting in water for several hours. 

it's important to consider the local environment and potential challenges like flooding when choosing an electric vehicle.

fortunately, where i live, flooding isn't a concern; otherwise, i wouldn't consider buying an ev car!

 

electric cars aren't suitable for everyone, as has been mentioned many times in this forum. people who prefer

internal combustion engines should just stick with them — it's as simple as that!

 

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, Bandersnatch said:

H2 is just not economic to produce in a sustainable way. When I make power from my solar system to put in my electric car there is some small efficiency loss due to the inversion process, but over 90% of the energy ends up in my car. 

What you are doing right now is grate, as soon as my 2 year old car is old enough to sell without taking a bath , I will join you, but unfortunately you cant take your solar system with you , many countries in the world do not have the electric infustracture to support wide use and charging of EV's. The grid just cant handle it, and then you have the rechargeable battery challenges (rare earth  minerals, pollution from mining, manufacturing, and recycling)

Hydrogen production might have challenges, but the science is changing, and it is clean and abundant. 

IIMO and the opinion an many that know a lot more than I do  the current EV  structure is a stop gap solution, 

" President Joe Biden and Secretary of the U.S. Department of Energy Jennifer Granholm will announce on Friday seven regional “hydrogen hubs” which are collectively eligible for up to $7 billion in federal funding", 

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/13/bidens-hydrogen-hubs-will-get-7-billion-california-houston-more.html

"Ghttps://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/germany-to-invest-e8-bn-in-large-scale-hydrogen-projects/ermany to invest €8 bn in large-scale hydrogen projects"

I am not going to b ore you with more  article and links, but investments are being made by every major countries around the world, and it is not because they don't know what to do with their money. 

 

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how it all plays out, tomorrows they might come out with a new rechargeable based on  silicon  who knows.  

 

 

[Bandersnatch]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

you cant take your solar system with you

Yes you can but not sure why you would want to as solar increases the value of the house: 2 identical houses one with a ฿5,000 a month electricity bill the other with ฿500 which would you buy?

 

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

many countries in the world do not have the electric infustracture to support wide use and charging of EV's. The grid just cant handle it,

I have already answered this in my reply to the OP please see above.

 

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

investments are being made by every major countries around the world, and it is not because they don't know what to do with their money

Federal funding isn’t going to help us here in Thailand. I don’t see any investment here in H2 for passenger vehicles. 
 

[JBChiangRai]

2 hours ago, sirineou said:

What you are doing right now is grate, as soon as my 2 year old car is old enough to sell without taking a bath , I will join you, but unfortunately you cant take your solar system with you , many countries in the world do not have the electric infustracture to support wide use and charging of EV's. The grid just cant handle it, and then you have the rechargeable battery challenges (rare earth  minerals, pollution from mining, manufacturing, and recycling)

Hydrogen production might have challenges, but the science is changing, and it is clean and abundant. 

IIMO and the opinion an many that know a lot more than I do  the current EV  structure is a stop gap solution, 

" President Joe Biden and Secretary of the U.S. Department of Energy Jennifer Granholm will announce on Friday seven regional “hydrogen hubs” which are collectively eligible for up to $7 billion in federal funding", 

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/13/bidens-hydrogen-hubs-will-get-7-billion-california-houston-more.html

"Ghttps://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/germany-to-invest-e8-bn-in-large-scale-hydrogen-projects/ermany to invest €8 bn in large-scale hydrogen projects"

I am not going to b ore you with more  article and links, but investments are being made by every major countries around the world, and it is not because they don't know what to do with their money. 

 

Anyway, it will be interesting to see how it all plays out, tomorrows they might come out with a new rechargeable based on  silicon  who knows.  

 

 

BEV’s may carry a higher price than H2 cars because the cost per km for fuel will be about one third of H2 cars.

 

I expect H2 cars to be cheaper because of less demand compared to BEV.

 

Which would you rather buy, a car that costs 1 baht per km or one that costs 3-5 baht per km?

Edited October 16, 2023 by JBChiangRai
Spellung

[JBChiangRai]

2 hours ago, In the jungle said:

Sure I have and in this thread I discovered you do too. 

British?

[JBChiangRai]

[vinny41]

47 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

Yes you can but not sure why you would want to as solar increases the value of the house: 2 identical houses one with a ฿5,000 a month electricity bill the other with ฿500 which would you buy?

 

I have already answered this in my reply to the OP please see above.

 

Federal funding isn’t going to help us here in Thailand. I don’t see any investment here in H2 for passenger vehicles. 
 

Problem with providing images without links shows that map is dated 2015

Source Netinform.net 2015

https://issuu.com/asmpub/docs/hydrogen_economy_web/s/16368153

 

[vinny41]

Taking the Lead in Hydrogen Fueling Stations

 In collaboration with PTT Plc. and Toyota Motor Thailand Co., Ltd., they have inaugurated the first hydrogen fueling station for Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles (FCEVs) in Bang Lamung District, Chonburi Province, Thailand.

The project involves testing the Toyota Mirai FCEV model to provide transportation services between U-Tapao Airport and the Pattaya area, catering to tourists and local passengers.

https://www.nationthailand.com/pr-news/more/pr-news/40029156

[vinny41]

Toyota said it will install equipment that produces hydrogen using biogas made from chicken manure at Toyota’s Asia-Pacific headquarters in Samut Prakan province, located south of Bangkok.

The manure will be provided by Thai poultry farms operated by CP Group and other parties, as well as food waste from the Toyota regional headquarters’ cafeteria.

https://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news/detail/TCATG230628092928841

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, Bandersnatch said:

Yes you can but not sure why you would want to as solar increases the value of the house: 2 identical houses one with a ฿5,000 a month electricity bill the other with ฿500 which would you buy?

No I mean when you go out driving, if you are home based then Solar is a good option, but not all driving is leave home, drive no more than the available range and then return home to charge with your solar. 

   Then you have all those people that live in apartments and condominiums. 

Then you have the weight issue, it costs energy to accelerate matter. , that's why weight matters in cars,  and a BAV is conceivably heavier that a FCEV.( fuelCell EV )Which is bart of the problem with BAV (Battery EV) airplanes. 

I remember reading some place (sorry I could not find the article ) about the issue of all EV traffic over bridges , buildings and other structures, An EV weights 2.5 times what an ICE vehicle ant two times as FCEV

Other than the infustracture challenge from an engineer's point of view FCRC is a much better option, if and when the production and delivery infustracture of hydrogen is overcome, I am convinced BEVs would be history except for specific applications.  

Edited October 16, 2023 by sirineou

[KhunLA]

I can see H as a replacement for diesel, used by heavy vehicles; public trans, trains, long haul trucking (those still using diesel)

 

Can't see any advantage for H to fuel family vehicles.  Quite the contrary and will be hard to convince anyone to buy.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by KhunLA

[Bandersnatch]

24 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

Problem with providing images without links shows that map is dated 2015

Source Netinform.net 2015

https://issuu.com/asmpub/docs/hydrogen_economy_web/s/16368153

 

Don’t worry the map hasn’t changed much since 2015.

 

The link to the live map wouldn’t load on my phone but here it is now

https://www.h2stations.org/stations-map/?lat=24.310177&lng=120.756532&zoom=4

 

And a screen shot 

 

[Bandersnatch]

26 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

The project involves testing the Toyota Mirai FCEV

Don’t worry, it’s just a test.

[vinny41]

6 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

Don’t worry the map hasn’t changed much since 2015.

 

The link to the live map wouldn’t load on my phone but here it is now

https://www.h2stations.org/stations-map/?lat=24.310177&lng=120.756532&zoom=4

 

And a screen shot 

 

That map is also out of date and it doesn't show the hydrogen fueling station  Bang Lamung District, Chonburi Province, Thailand.

[Bandersnatch]

H2 is being pushed hard by the fossil fuel industry and their lobbyists.

 

As at the end of 2021 47% was made from natural gas, 27% from Coal, 22% from oil and only 4% from electrolysis because it so expensive.

https://www.irena.org/Energy-Transition/Technology/Hydrogen#:~:text=As at the end of,around 4% comes from electrolysis.

 

So basically H2 is a fossil fuel.

 

H2 is also being pushed  by Japanese Legacy automakers who are late to the EV party and are trying to muddy the debate around Green Energy.

 

Even using Grey and Brown H2 it is still not economic for passenger vehicles. If it was, it would have happened by now.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Bandersnatch

[Bandersnatch]

12 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

That map is also out of date and it doesn't show the hydrogen fueling station  Bang Lamung District, Chonburi Province, Thailand

Because it’s not public  - it is a TEST facility

[vinny41]

20 minutes ago, Bandersnatch said:

Because it’s not public  - it is a TEST facility

I was going to show an outdated map of all the EV charging stations in Thailand in 2011 but I am unable to because in 2011 there wasn't any EV charging stations in Thailand

[TorquayFan]

I started this thread as follows :

 

"It's becoming increasingly obvious that a widespread rush to EV may be problematic - Thailand (and all Nations), need to find the right role for them. The use of EV in big Cities obviously makes some sense, reducing pollution, in say BKK and Chiang Mai "

 

Thanks for all the replies and discussion - I've learned some things but I think the original proposition still looks the right one for me.

 

EV's exist and anyone who who wants one, for all of the positive reasons, should get one. It's obvious that many EV owners love them atm - but it is early days !

 

I'm an ICE addict and won't be changing, (at 76), but I do have some insight into EV 'joys' as one of my Sons in the UK has had an £88K Mercedes EQC AMG for a couple of years. It is a fantastic vehicle BUT for example, on a return journey from Leeds to Cornwall recently, he had to make 2 recharge stops. MMMmmm

 

So returning to it, IMO Govts should push them for use in major urban areas to lower local pollution but otherwise, it's best left to us to decide what we want, (and take the consequences). On this front, the vilified Mayor of London Sadiq Khan is surely on the right track . . . ?

 

I am still concerned about the dangers of the rare (?) but intense fires but maybe as battery technology improves this aspect will improve.

 

We don't really know yet about battery life - if it settles around 8/10 years, how much ooomph will be left as the time for replacement approaches ? What will the cost of a new battery be by that time and will the improved technology be available in the replacement market. We've yet to learn but time will tell . . . and  I hope insurance premiums stay reasonable.

 

At the heart of my objection is Govt's base policy and act as if EV's will save the World from it's problems with pollution - that's just not so. The UK's 2035 guillotine on ICE sales is IMO plainly ridiculous.

 

That's it for me - thanks Guys

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by TorquayFan

[TorquayFan]

Footnote : https://uk.yahoo.com/news/1-400-vehicles-burned-luton-143433280.html

[Bandersnatch]

10 minutes ago, TorquayFan said:

Footnote : https://uk.yahoo.com/news/1-400-vehicles-burned-luton-143433280.html

@TorquayFan not sure why you are posting a link to a fire started by a diesel car

 

Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue press release.

 

https://www.bedsfire.gov.uk/news/london-luton-airport-car-park-fire