China and Thailand should expedite building of the China-Thailand railway : Xi Jinping

[Sydebolle]

The former Thai boys in uniform graced the parliament building since 2014 and self-declared them as leaders or government. 
2016 came and the Laotians signed a suicidal deal with the Chinese (certain oiling and greasing was done between the China giants and some serious crooks in Vientiane worth millions of dollars of non-receiptable outlays). Subsequently the red brethren of the North put 150'000+ workers along a ruler line through Laos, blew hundreds of tunnels and built further hundreds of bridges and announced in 2016 already, that the train would do its maiden trip on 2 December 2021 (the National Day of Laos). And, in true Chinese fashion - the first train high-sped on 2 December 2021. 

All the while the same self-elected government of Thailand in 2014 meanwhile cooked up a legalization coat in 2019 and by 2021 had achieved nothinig compared to the Chinese. Their achievement was buying three Chinese submarines without engines for double the price of the entire Laotian railway. 

Your call now; I for one will not hold my breath to see any trains running highspeed from Nong Khai to the Gulf of Thailand anytime soon, unless the Chinese are willing to seriously grease the Thai cogwheels in the parliament building to get anywhere - me thinks. Beefing up matters now might see some train movements in the third decade of this century .... Your call

[proton]

6 hours ago, Deserted said:

I think its a good idea and will work as long as they don't let Chinese people on the trains, then it will be fine. 

Or the Thais drive them if over 60k an hour!

[2baht]

3 hours ago, DickyWeedyTuning said:

I'm glad to see Asia emancipate itself from toxic USA.

Nihao ma, comrade! 🤔

[Mavideol]

18 hours ago, Moonlover said:

Please tell. In what way do you think that Thailand will benefit from this 'pretty amazing' train?

will create more debt and dependency to China thus speeding up the process of becoming the 23rd China province

[Mavideol]

Thailand should tread carefully, there is an old saying..... make a deal with the devil and.....?????

 

The term "a deal with the Devil" (or "Faustian bargain") is also used metaphorically to condemn a person or persons perceived as having cooperated with an evil person or organization.

[mokwit]

20 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

family-like relations

You could say that.

17 hours ago, RabbitFoot said:

Usual western propaganda. Full of resentment.

I've been there. Train is great and is benefiting the country.

Period.

Which country? The one that benefits from it or the one that took on debt to pay for it to the benefit of the other country?

 

Oh, but you've been there. Train is great and is benefiting the country.

 

Seems Jet Shrettha though of a Kraa land bridge all by himself and luckily the Chinese construction company had done enough work all by itself and was thus able to comment on viability for them. On  reflection it will probably be better to build a canal that is large enough to accommodate oil tankers (and by lucky coincidence aircraft carriers too!). Not to worry if Thailand has trouble with the funding, kind hearted China will lend them the money. While we are here let's blast the shoals in the Mekhong so that ocean sized vessels can navigate it - think of all those ship loads of tourists!

[RanongCat]

4 hours ago, RocketDog said:

Modis operendi.

Tentacles slide in slowly and serriptitiously until they've got you by the b*Alls and squeezing your heart.

Very true! The IMF and World Bank lend for infrastructure if built at all is over budget and inferior

China does it transparently.

[Pipi Olly]

That project has been underway for a while now. Hua Hin is building a new gigantic train station. Funds are Chinese I believe. It's pretty obvious the train will go from Vientiane to the Malaysia through Thailand. Great project for the region. Much needed based on my train experiences here !

[connda]

17 hours ago, RabbitFoot said:

Usual western propaganda. Full of resentment.

I've been there. Train is great and is benefiting the country.

Period.

For some reason most of the "I hate the Chinese" crowd fail to observe that the US via the IMF have doing the same for decades.  However, unlike China, the US/IMF tag-team tends to leave the target country with rich leaders who are beholding to US foreign policy and the hell with the country's citizens who are on the hook for the IMF loan.  China at least leaves valuable infrastructure that stimulates economic trade.

😠 "China is evil.  US/IMF debt is 'good debt' and Chinese debt is 'bad debt.'"

Whatever..............

[connda]

1 minute ago, Pipi Olly said:

That project has been underway for a while now. Hua Hin is building a new gigantic train station. Funds are Chinese I believe. It's pretty obvious the train will go from Vientiane to the Malaysia through Thailand. Great project for the region. Much needed based on my train experiences here !

By the way - I agree. 

[Pipi Olly]

3 minutes ago, connda said:

"China is evil.  US/IMF debt is 'good debt' and Chinese debt is 'bad debt.'"

Yeah exactly :))

 

[Burma Bill]

20 hours ago, snoop1130 said:

accelerate construction of the China-Thailand railway

By the time the HST link between Vientiane, Nong Khai and Korat is complete (only "on paper" at the moment), the section between Korat and Bangkok will be obsolete and need upgrading!!

[mokwit]

17 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

"Laos has had to make compromises, including on its own sovereignty, to appease Beijing and seek some financial forbearance, allowing Chinese security agents and police to operate in the country as Beijing extends its repression beyond its borders, according to human rights groups and Lao activists. The Laotian electrical grid is now partly controlled by China, in what analysts believe is a trade-off in lieu of debt repayments. A Chinese company provides security for the new train line."

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/laos-debt-china-belt-road/

 

It seems that a major sticking point on the Thai section is that China is demanding property rights along the whole length. China out of the goodness of it's heart will not overburden Thai companies that could supply engineering, labour  and components such as cement and steel, but instead will contractually specify purchase of everything needed, including labour, right down to railway sleepers and tracks from China.

[Hardcastle P]

Nothing better than being in hock to China. Jump ,how high? 

[mokwit]

22 minutes ago, Hardcastle P said:

Nothing better than being in hock to China. Jump ,how high? 

Economic colonialism. 

[sandyf]

20 hours ago, RabbitFoot said:

Usual western propaganda. Full of resentment.

I've been there. Train is great and is benefiting the country.

Period.

It is indeed. Laos needs others to do their part to get the real benefit.

Can't for the life of me understand why they are not progressing the freight link between Vientiane and Nong Khai, probably the Thais cannot decide where to put the new station and freight depot

When I was there in January the Vietnamese were looking to improve connectivity with Laos to benefit from the new train service, only takes 1.5 hours from Chinese border to Luang Prabang and 2 hours from LP to Vientiane.

 

[billd766]

23 hours ago, RabbitFoot said:

It's gonna be great. The train that China build in Laos is pretty amazing. Thailand could greatly benefit.

Is it standard gauge or a 1 metre gauge track, If they are of different gauges, then at some point people and goods will have to be trans shipped from one line to another.

 

China wants Thailand to borrow the money and if Thailand cannot repay the loan then China will own the railway legally.

 

https://www.livemint.com/news/world/china-s-built-a-railroad-to-nowhere-in-kenya-1563550151761.html

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt-trap_diplomacy#:~:text=The Associated Press reported in,unforgiving government lender%2C China."

 

The Associated Press reported in May 2023 that a dozen countries, including Pakistan, Kenya, Zambia, Laos and Mongolia, were on the "brink of collapse" under the weight of overwhelming foreign debt, "much of [it] from the world’s biggest and most unforgiving government lender, China." 

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/02/china-debt-trap-diplomacy/617953/

 

https://apnews.com/article/china-debt-banking-loans-financial-developing-countries-collapse-8df6f9fac3e1e758d0e6d8d5dfbd3ed6

 

There is a lot of information in the links.

 

There is an old but true saying

 

" He who sups with the devil, should have a long spoon"

 

Any country that borrows money always pays it back, one way or another.

 

 

[retarius]

This could go either way from my perspective. One way is the Chinese way, super fast efficient trains with rails built at the speed of light. The other way is the Thai SuperSpeed train from BKK to Udon Thani that has taken almost a decade in building so far; is not yet near being operational; indeed it is further behind that it was when the project started and the maximum speed is now 50kph and the train stops at every station and has only one line. 

If I have confidence that the Thais would step out of the way and let the Chinese build the railway, then I would have full confidence in the future infrastructure of Thailand......but that won't happen will it? We'll get some festering sub-committee secreting money about their persons while the project never gets completed. 

[billd766]

7 hours ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

What would be great right now is if China was  serious  would be to tell Taiwan, were  sorry we  will stop all activity concerning your  nation and will also stop demanding the S China sea.....this would  have incredible repurcussions round the world and bring massive stability and give them some decent credibility, way more than the constant crap they spew out.

Great for who exactly?

[billd766]

5 hours ago, Iamloki said:

No doubt the train is very pretty Rabbit... but that does not address the debt and overall cost to Laos. If it weren't for all the financial damage to all those African nations, I would be more inclined to write it all off as American propaganda... But then, there are all those African examples aren't there?

Don't forget the Chinese port of Hambantota in Sri Lanka.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hambantota_International_Port

 

Lots of information about Chinese loans in the link.

[Deserted]

They want to build trains so that it makes it easier for them to send all their criminals to Thailand.

[kwilco]

On 10/20/2023 at 11:20 AM, RabbitFoot said:

It's gonna be great. The train that China build in Laos is pretty amazing. Thailand could greatly benefit.

China's investments in Laos are not that wonderful.

THe eco-damage is phenomenal and the economic n=benefits largely favour China over anything for Laos.

THey have destroyed the ecology of Mekong with their dams

THe railway actually does little for the Laos economy - it isn't even very near to most of the towns - it isn't used by the people - they can't afford it.

 

The reason for the railway is so that China can ship goods out of Westen China into markets in the West without having to go round via ports on their east coast. THey are particularly interested in deep water ports in Burma and the Andaman coast.

 

To do this they tie up Laos and other countries into debts for these facilities that they can't possibly repay thus giving China even more sway over the country in the years to come.

 

China basically is trying to get all of South East Asia in their debt by dangling these "prestigious" civil engineering projects in front of politicians who are all too eager to boost their own reputation and popularity regardless of the massive downside further down the road - by which time They probably won't be in office,

 

Britain and France used railways as a tool of colonisation in the 19th Century, China is doing the same now. Interestingly Thailand refused railways from both France and Britain then - but maybe the current crop of politicians haven't learned from history.

Edited October 21, 2023 by kwilco

[Deserted]

You may well have a few points there.

[Rampant Rabbit]

13 hours ago, Pipi Olly said:

That project has been underway for a while now. Hua Hin is building a new gigantic train station. Funds are Chinese I believe. It's pretty obvious the train will go from Vientiane to the Malaysia through Thailand. Great project for the region. Much needed based on my train experiences here !

Nah thats just an upgrade to dual tracks so slow trains dont have to stop to let another pass in certain areas, its  all narrow  guage also if you go and look at it.

[Rampant Rabbit]

9 hours ago, billd766 said:

Great for who exactly?

The rest of the world

[Selatan]

11 hours ago, billd766 said:

Don't forget the Chinese port of Hambantota in Sri Lanka.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hambantota_International_Port

 

Lots of information about Chinese loans in the link.

These 2 professors from Harvard and Johns Hopkins really did a good job researching the subject:

 

The Chinese ‘Debt Trap’ Is a Myth

 

As said in the wiki article, China was not even involved in the beginning. It was the Canadians and the Danes that did the feasibility studies.

 

I particularly like this paragraph from the above article:

 

Quote

As Michael Ondaatje, one of Sri Lanka’s greatest chroniclers, once said, “In Sri Lanka a well-told lie is worth a thousand facts.” And the debt-trap narrative is just that: a lie, and a powerful one.

 

[Ricardo]

2 hours ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Nah thats just an upgrade to dual tracks so slow trains dont have to stop to let another pass in certain areas, its  all narrow  guage also if you go and look at it.

Correct, the SRT have slowly (it's a 20-year plan, and running late) been duelling some of their single-track main-lines, but it's all just a much-needed improvement of their existing metre-gauge system.

 

And not funded by China, as claimed.

 

Interestingly much of the new Chinese-built line through Laos is also reported to be single-track, with passing-places along the way, and is medium-speed at best (understandable given the difficult terrain), Wikipedia say "The railway is built on a single track with passing loops and is electrified to China's Class I trunk railway standards, suitable for 160 km/h (100 mph) passenger and 120 km/h (75 mph) freight trains" .

[Deserted]

Thailand should build a high-speed rail network to Europe not China.

[daveAustin]

On 10/21/2023 at 9:46 AM, Rampant Rabbit said:

Yes Ive heard its very good for transporting Gravy and Thailand needs more gravy.

Careful when quoting yourself online; it is akin to answering oneself back in public.

[billd766]

6 hours ago, Selatan said:

These 2 professors from Harvard and Johns Hopkins really did a good job researching the subject:

 

The Chinese ‘Debt Trap’ Is a Myth

 

As said in the wiki article, China was not even involved in the beginning. It was the Canadians and the Danes that did the feasibility studies.

 

I particularly like this paragraph from the above article:

 

 

quote from your post "As said in the wiki article, China was not even involved in the beginning. It was the Canadians and the Danes that did the feasibility studies".

 

Did Denmark or Canada actually fund the port, or just do a feasibility study?

 

But WHO does Sri Lanka owe the money to? Denmark, Canada or the Chinese banks who actually provided the funds?

 

Who paid the loan off and now controls the port?

 

Denmark, Canada or China?

 

To which country did Sri Lanka default on the loan?

 

Denmark, Canada or China?

 

It does not matter whether China was involved in the beginning or not. What matters is which country provided the funds to rebuild the port.