Analysis The Gaza diplomacy of Biden, Sunak and co seems to be heading for failure

[charleskerins]

On 10/23/2023 at 7:14 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Is Biden wondering how it all turned to <deleted> so fast? Facing defeat in the election by a big bombastic liar, a disaster on the southern border, no pliable congress to hand over billions to israel, protests against israel/ America in many countries, and now it looks like his "ally" in israel is making itself very unpopular in the region and America may have to go back to war there if a certain large country that hates America decides to do something about israel.

"a disaster on the southern border"   which has been like that for 50 years   .pliable Congress -yeah that's joe's fault   .bombastic liar - Joe didn't vote for him neither did I     Hey what are the latest GDP numbers?  How about job numbers -now maybe they are Joe's fault     Well done President Biden

[Morch]

48 minutes ago, billd766 said:

I don't think that Israel actually wants Gaza as they had it once before. What I DO believe, is that Israel under Netanyahu's government want to eradicate the entire population of Gaza and the East bank and end up with a single state, composed of Israeli's and some "tame" Palestinians just for show.

 

What you believe is not necessarily fact. With regard to the Gaza Strip, doubtful. It's a can of worms and doesn't hold as much significance as the West Bank.

 

I kinda think you lost the plot when you go on about 'eradication of the entire population' - if that was so, the death toll would be way way higher. The dropped bombs vs. casualty figures suggests more than one bomb for a dead Palestinian, that's no way to go about a 'genocide'.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I don’t see it as rewarding Hamas, but I can see your point of view.

 

I would rather Israel broker a peace deal than an intermediary.  The world is watching and thousands of civilians killed is not going across well.

 

 

 

 

 

Simply repeating not seeing it as reward doesn't explain much.

 

Make peace with whom? Is Hamas interested in peace? Can the PA commit for anything semi-serious? This isn't about what we'd like, it's about how things are. And furthermore, expecting Israel's most right-wing government to opt for peace? Not realistic as well.

[JBChiangRai]

43 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Simply repeating not seeing it as reward doesn't explain much.

 

Make peace with whom? Is Hamas interested in peace? Can the PA commit for anything semi-serious? This isn't about what we'd like, it's about how things are. And furthermore, expecting Israel's most right-wing government to opt for peace? Not realistic as well.

Yes this is how things are, so who will break the cycle?

 

The world was appalled and stood with Israel on 7/10.

 

Today the criticism is growing.  

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, JBChiangRai said:

Yes this is how things are, so who will break the cycle?

 

The world was appalled and stood with Israel on 7/10.

 

Today the criticism is growing.  

 

 

World opinion is like that, nothing new.

Still doesn't answer how giving in to Hamas is not rewarding it?

[JBChiangRai]

22 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

World opinion is like that, nothing new.

Still doesn't answer how giving in to Hamas is not rewarding it?

I don’t see Israel negotiating a ceasefire as giving in.  I see it as taking the initiative.

 

According to Hamas 50 of the hostages have been killed by Israeli bombs, make of that what you will.

 

There are reports coming out of Gaza of Israel carpet bombing every part of every city across Gaza North to South and East to West.  I am not seeing precision bombing of Hamas targets in this if it’s true.

 

It’s not just world opinion.  In a poll yesterday 49% of Israeli’s don’t want their army going into Gaza now.  Less than 30% are in favour.

[Morch]

 

20 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I don’t see Israel negotiating a ceasefire as giving in.  I see it as taking the initiative.

 

According to Hamas 50 of the hostages have been killed by Israeli bombs, make of that what you will.

 

There are reports coming out of Gaza of Israel carpet bombing every part of every city across Gaza North to South and East to West.  I am not seeing precision bombing of Hamas targets in this if it’s true.

 

It’s not just world opinion.  In a poll yesterday 49% of Israeli’s don’t want their army going into Gaza now.  Less than 30% are in favour.

 

Ok, you don't see it that way. But you are a private observer. Its more relevant how involved parties, or those waiting on the  sidelines, see things. As said more than once, it's a different neighborhood, not allowing for that when analyzing and assessing situations is a choice.

 

Yeah, I see 'carpet bombing' being tossed about in the media. People should get a clue. What you're seeing is not it. If Israel was 'carpet bombing' the Gaza Strip, it would have been a parking lot by now, and there would be way more dead Gazans. What you see is a fraction of the mayhem an actual 'carpet bombing' would entail. I think it's bad enough without going into hyperbole mode or using loaded, misleading terms.

 

Allow me to guess that you're not an expert in aerial warfare, a trained combat pilot or something of the sort? Then how would you know? Bombing in urban areas is like that. War is ugly. If you compare similar campaigns by the USA, Russia or whomever, it's all pretty much the same.

 

If you ink that poll, I will address your comment. Out of context, it's meaningless.

[JBChiangRai]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

 

Ok, you don't see it that way. But you are a private observer. Its more relevant how involved parties, or those waiting on the  sidelines, see things. As said more than once, it's a different neighborhood, not allowing for that when analyzing and assessing situations is a choice.

 

Yeah, I see 'carpet bombing' being tossed about in the media. People should get a clue. What you're seeing is not it. If Israel was 'carpet bombing' the Gaza Strip, it would have been a parking lot by now, and there would be way more dead Gazans. What you see is a fraction of the mayhem an actual 'carpet bombing' would entail. I think it's bad enough without going into hyperbole mode or using loaded, misleading terms.

 

Allow me to guess that you're not an expert in aerial warfare, a trained combat pilot or something of the sort? Then how would you know? Bombing in urban areas is like that. War is ugly. If you compare similar campaigns by the USA, Russia or whomever, it's all pretty much the same.

 

If you ink that poll, I will address your comment. Out of context, it's meaningless.

You guess correctly.

 

The poll is here https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-poll-finds-49-support-holding-off-gaza-invasion-2023-10-27/

[Morch]

27 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

You guess correctly.

 

The poll is here https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-poll-finds-49-support-holding-off-gaza-invasion-2023-10-27/

 

Thank you.

 

Not too surprising (and even mentioned in the link provided). The two instances of hostages released intensified public debate about priorities etc. (as in dismantling Hamas vs. releasing the hostages). The realization that the two options are going to be hard to reconcile is sipping through. Someone would need to take tough choices.

 

It doesn't, however, indicate people are against a ground attack per se.

 

Support for the government and Netanyahu has been relatively low even before the war, now its plummeting.

[bobbin]

8 hours ago, Morch said:

 

"Proponents of a Jewish State were openly in conflict with British Authorities, killing many (many!) British soldiers."

 

If memory serves, about 150 British soldiers, policemen, and officials were killed by Jewish terrorists (1920-1948). The Arab Revolt in Palestine (1936-1939) resulted in at least double casualties figures than that.

 

The British Army and Police casualties figures you quote seemed low compared to references i had seen, so I did a quick Google...

 

The British Army Museum quotes a figure of 750 Military and Police killed from 1945-1948. This figure does not include injured..

 

Another interesting fact emerged.. From 1920 until 1939, when Britain curtailed Jewish immigration so as to retain Arab support for the war effort, 100,000 Jews emigrated to Palestine. That would certainly have added to the "local" Jewish population. A further 250,000 emigrated after 1945 and prior to the conflict between Arabs and Jews that occurred after the British withdrawal.

 

As earlier noted, the British became weary of the conflict with Jewish nationalists and departed prematurely, without a political solution in place. Essentially they left it to the Arabs and the Jews to fight it out amongst themselves...

[Yellowtail]

20 minutes ago, bobbin said:

The British Army and Police casualties figures you quote seemed low compared to references i had seen, so I did a quick Google...

 

The British Army Museum quotes a figure of 750 Military and Police killed from 1945-1948. This figure does not include injured..

 

Another interesting fact emerged.. From 1920 until 1939, when Britain curtailed Jewish immigration so as to retain Arab support for the war effort, 100,000 Jews emigrated to Palestine. That would certainly have added to the "local" Jewish population. A further 250,000 emigrated after 1945 and prior to the conflict between Arabs and Jews that occurred after the British withdrawal.

 

As earlier noted, the British became weary of the conflict with Jewish nationalists and departed prematurely, without a political solution in place. Essentially they left it to the Arabs and the Jews to fight it out amongst themselves...

 

"The British Army Museum quotes a figure of 750 Military and Police killed from 1945-1948." Killed by Jewish terrorists? It's not clear. 

[Morch]

44 minutes ago, bobbin said:

The British Army and Police casualties figures you quote seemed low compared to references i had seen, so I did a quick Google...

 

The British Army Museum quotes a figure of 750 Military and Police killed from 1945-1948. This figure does not include injured..

 

Another interesting fact emerged.. From 1920 until 1939, when Britain curtailed Jewish immigration so as to retain Arab support for the war effort, 100,000 Jews emigrated to Palestine. That would certainly have added to the "local" Jewish population. A further 250,000 emigrated after 1945 and prior to the conflict between Arabs and Jews that occurred after the British withdrawal.

 

As earlier noted, the British became weary of the conflict with Jewish nationalists and departed prematurely, without a political solution in place. Essentially they left it to the Arabs and the Jews to fight it out amongst themselves...

 

Well, dunno....

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory_Palestine#Casualties,

 

Either way, I agree with you that the way the British withdrew, not to mention the lame partition plan, did nothing but ensure war will erupt. Maybe there was a way to do it better, and maybe not.

 

[bobbin]

52 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

"The British Army Museum quotes a figure of 750 Military and Police killed from 1945-1948." Killed by Jewish terrorists? It's not clear. 

Yes

[bobbin]

30 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Well, dunno....

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandatory_Palestine#Casualties,

 

Either way, I agree with you that the way the British withdrew, not to mention the lame partition plan, did nothing but ensure war will erupt. Maybe there was a way to do it better, and maybe not.

 

Thanks for the link. 

 

Wow.. long read. I just skimmed quickly and I'll read it tomorrow morning.

 

Interesting the discrepancy in the casualty figures.

[thaibeachlovers]

18 hours ago, billd766 said:

I don't think that Israel actually wants Gaza as they had it once before. What I DO believe, is that Israel under Netanyahu's government want to eradicate the entire population of Gaza and the East bank and end up with a single state, composed of Israeli's and some "tame" Palestinians just for show.

I agree with that, but to be pedantic it's the West bank.

Whatever they say, their "encouragement" of the settlers to attack Palestinians ( with military backing ) indicates that is what they want.

They have not said what their plan is for the Palestinians if they can't live in the West Bank. Perhaps they are intending to use the white Sth African apartheid policy of Bantustans, which would keep a captive supply of workers to build settlements.

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, bobbin said:

As earlier noted, the British became weary of the conflict with Jewish nationalists and departed prematurely, without a political solution in place. Essentially they left it to the Arabs and the Jews to fight it out amongst themselves...

Agreed that they abandoned their "principles" and just abandoned the Palestinians to their fate.

I wonder if the current mob in Parliament realise that their predecessors are responsible for the current fiasco?

Had they not backstabbed the Arabs and allowed them to have the independence they promised when they needed them, modern israel would never have existed, and the current problem would not have occurred. One wonders how much guilt Lawrence felt for his part in the deception.

[thaibeachlovers]

Currently watching "Counting the Cost" on Al Jazeera.

It's pointing out that the israeli economy has been severely harmed by the conflict ( forget tourism for a start ), and not least by calling up so many reservists which has deprived businesses of workers.

 

Had a long shot of empty israeli streets and shuttered shops.

 

It's also pointed out the risk to the world economy, so this conflict may end up negatively impacting all of us.

 

The following was not seen on the program, and is my opinion.

If OPEC decides to block oil exports that really will have us all suffering, especially with Russian oil off line for western nations.

I have not forgotten the effects of the 70's oil cut off, and it'll be worse now, if it happens.

[metisdead]

A post with a trolling image and a reply contravening our Community Standards have been removed. 

[Bkk Brian]

20 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Currently watching "Counting the Cost" on Al Jazeera.

It's pointing out that the israeli economy has been severely harmed by the conflict ( forget tourism for a start ), and not least by calling up so many reservists which has deprived businesses of workers.

 

Had a long shot of empty israeli streets and shuttered shops.

 

It's also pointed out the risk to the world economy, so this conflict may end up negatively impacting all of us.

 

The following was not seen on the program, and is my opinion.

If OPEC decides to block oil exports that really will have us all suffering, especially with Russian oil off line for western nations.

I have not forgotten the effects of the 70's oil cut off, and it'll be worse now, if it happens.

It's also pointed out the risk to the world economy, so this conflict may end up negatively impacting all of us.

 

Yes those Iran backed Hamas terrorists need to pay for their actions, Israel is in the process of doing that.

[JBChiangRai]

45 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I agree with that, but to be pedantic it's the West bank.

Whatever they say, their "encouragement" of the settlers to attack Palestinians ( with military backing ) indicates that is what they want.

They have not said what their plan is for the Palestinians if they can't live in the West Bank. Perhaps they are intending to use the white Sth African apartheid policy of Bantustans, which would keep a captive supply of workers to build settlements.

I think Netanyahu made it clear his intentions when he presented the map of Israel (below) to the UN in September, the West Bank and Gaza are shown as Israel.

 

 

[JBChiangRai]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Yes those Iran backed Hamas terrorists need to pay for their actions, Israel is in the process of doing that.

That sounds a lot like revenge to me

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

That sounds a lot like revenge to me

Thought it would, its known as consequence for actions

[JBChiangRai]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Thought it would, its known as consequence for actions

In my world we prefer Justice.

 

When the motive is revenge, it just goes round and round ad infinitum. 

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, JBChiangRai said:

In my world we prefer Justice.

 

When the motive is revenge, it just goes round and round ad infinitum. 

 

 

Consequence for action is justice

[JBChiangRai]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

Consequence for action is justice

Only when the motive isn’t revenge.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, JBChiangRai said:

Only when the motive isn’t revenge.

Word salad from you. Hamas are facing justice, ie consequence for their actions. Call it what you want, I've already stated what I consider it to be.

[JBChiangRai]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Word salad from you. Hamas are facing justice, ie consequence for their actions. Call it what you want, I've already stated what I consider it to be.

I have been detecting an undercurrent in your posts of anger and a desire for revenge.

 

This IMHO is the problem with Israel’s response to 7/10.

 

The response has not been inline with their stated objective, it has been revenge.  The world has seen it despite Israel’s failed attempt to control the narrative.

 

The former head of HRW puts it this way

 

 

[Morch]

21 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I think Netanyahu made it clear his intentions when he presented the map of Israel (below) to the UN in September, the West Bank and Gaza are shown as Israel.

 

 

 

Yawn. Get over it. Some staffer messed up. Happens.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

In my world we prefer Justice.

 

When the motive is revenge, it just goes round and round ad infinitum. 

 

 

 

You do not live in the Middle East.

 

And the two alleged 'motives' are not mutually exclusive.

[Bkk Brian]

5 minutes ago, JBChiangRai said:

I have been detecting an undercurrent in your posts of anger and a desire for revenge.

 

This IMHO is the problem with Israel’s response to 7/10.

 

The response has not been inline with their stated objective, it has been revenge.  The world has seen it despite Israel’s failed attempt to control the narrative.

 

The former head of HRW puts it this way

 

 

 

You can detect what you want from me, it does not change my feelings in the slightest or how I chose to articulate what I say.

 

We can both carry on batting with quotes:

 

"Speaking alongside him, Mr Sunak told reporters the UK "absolutely" supported Israel's "right to defend itself, in line with international law". "I know that you are taking every precaution to avoid harming civilians, in direct contrast to the terrorists of Hamas," he added."