how about a tax avoiidance topic

[Rampant Rabbit]

Being as everyones hitting their  pants , how about  a  tax  avoidance  topic? all those smart Alecs  telling us if we  dont  know how to avoid any new tax  rules give us  your avoidance tips here. Sticking to just avoidance only and nowt else would help, not 200 pages of morality etc. Tax is a  game nothing more and even more of a  game in Thailand.

[bob smith]

The best way to avoid paying Tax is by not paying Tax.

[freeworld]

Tax avoidance is wrong, everyone with morals should pay their fair share if earning income.

[scubascuba3]

Just now, freeworld said:

Tax avoidance is wrong, everyone with morals should pay their fair share if earning income.

Tax avoidance is fair, tax evasion is wrong

[freeworld]

24 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Tax avoidance is fair, tax evasion is wrong

Avoidance can also be seen as seeking loopholes to evade paying tax.

 

When someone is deliberately avoiding tax with loopholes means they are trying to keep more govt money for themselves and those working tirelessly in govt positions cant perform their duties to benefit society as a whole.

Edited October 23, 2023 by freeworld

[Rampant Rabbit]

22 minutes ago, freeworld said:

Tax avoidance is wrong, everyone with morals should pay their fair share if earning income.

Sticking to just avoidance only and nowt else would help, not 200 pages of morality etc. try READING

[Rampant Rabbit]

3 minutes ago, freeworld said:

Avoidance can also be seen as seeking loopholes to evade paying tax.

 

When someone is deliberately avoiding tax with loopholes means those working tirelessly in govt positions cant perform their duties to benefit society as a whole.

open your  own morality thread then mr holier than though

[cjinchiangrai]

We don't even know the rules and rates yet. There is nothing to discuss.

[KhunLA]

Simplest, bring you funds in using ATM.   As any tax would be incurred on bank deposits.

[Yellowtail]

12 minutes ago, freeworld said:

Avoidance can also be seen as seeking loopholes to evade paying tax.

 

When someone is deliberately avoiding tax with loopholes means they are trying to keep more govt money for themselves and those working tirelessly in govt positions cant perform their duties to benefit society as a whole.

 

This is hilarious...

[TroubleandGrumpy]

Only live in Thailand 179 days each year.

[Gaccha]

The starting point to minimise the tax burden on you is, as always, to follow the ABC rule.

 

 

You or your accountant then have to investigate which place is best for you as C country. Putting aside the issues of how secure it is, what investment opportunities there are etc, the key question and concern of this OP's topic is what will be the tax burden in country C and how does it operate.

 

If it has a tax treaty with Thailand then this will no doubt help. In any event, you'll be linking the way their system works with the way the Thai system works.

 

[TravelerEastWest]

3 hours ago, freeworld said:

Tax avoidance is wrong, everyone with morals should pay their fair share if earning income.

 

Judge Learned Hand,  wrote: “Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes.”

 

Hand was an American appellate  judge who also studied philosophy at Harvard a long time ago - the key point is avoidance is simply organizing your taxes legally under the law.

 

What is your fair share is another topic and could take many people a long time to decide and still everyone won't agree...

 

Also what are morals? So many different views...

[Celsius]

42 minutes ago, Gaccha said:

The starting point to minimise the tax burden on you is, as always, to follow the ABC rule.

 

 

 

 

 

This makes no sense to me. Just continue banking in country A

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

Simplest, bring you funds in using ATM.   As any tax would be incurred on bank deposits.

What if the  tax office demands a copy of all your foreign banks account statements?  What if the banks supply the names of all  foreigners who have made withdrawals, mind you a file of 100 Miliion names is easy to process, I mean finding Mr. Khunla out of 100 Million records isn't a challenge. IT can do anything that's needed, what a bit more difficult will be to organise the data exchanges between parties involved.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Ben Zioner

[KhunLA]

59 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

What if the  tax office demands a copy of all your foreign banks account statements?  What if the banks supply the names of all  foreigners who have made withdrawals, mind you a file of 100 Miliion names is easy to process, I mean finding Mr. Khunla out of 100 Million records isn't a challenge. IT can do anything that's needed, what a bit more difficult will be to organise the data exchanges between parties involved.

ATM withdrawals, and how could they tell the difference from someone living here, or a tourist.  For those with a home country bank account, and simple solution.

 

Another would be, if wanting to deposit in your Thai bank, move funds in home country bank to a 401k/retirement fund account, and bring in that way, as most tax treaties don't tax retirement funds/accounts.

 

Best to read your countries tax treaty w/TH.  Along with next year, being 2 full months away, so you could bring over quite a bit now if wanting.

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by KhunLA

[Ben Zioner]

3 hours ago, KhunLA said:

ATM withdrawals, and how could they tell the difference from someone living here, or a tourist. 

Not by  looking at the list of the 100000000 withdrawals but let's imagine routine work at the tax office.

 

- Ooh this Mr. KunLa declares a ridiculous amount of transfers, let's look at  his lifestyle.

- Hmmmh lifestyle  doesn't match his declared transfers.

- Let's look at the cash withdrawals  by Khunlas. Only 50 to investigate  on 2 cards, one has them spread over the year, the  other over two weeks in January so not our guy. Lets get the full identity of  the other  from his UK bank.

- Ohhhh dijai, dijai it is  our guy, lets fine him 2.5  times the undeclared amount plus a flat fine of 200000....

Edited October 23, 2023 by Ben Zioner

[KhunLA]

5 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Not by  looking at the list of the 100000000 withdrawals but let's imagine routine work at the tax office.

 

- Ooh this Mr. KunLa declares a ridiculous amount of transfers, let's look at  his lifestyle.

- Hmmmh lifestyle  doesn't match his declared transfers.

- Let's look at the cash withdrawals  by Khunlas. Only 50 to investigate  on 2 cards, one has them spread over the year, the  other over two weeks in January so not our guy. Lets get the full identity of  the other  from his UK bank.

- Ohhhh dijai, dijai it is  our guy, lets fine him 2.5  times the undeclared amount plus a flat fine of 200000....

Can't see that happening.

 

You put your 400k or 800k in the bank, then live of ATM withdrawals, tax free.

Don't think they are going to invest that much time & manpower on the few expats here.   They're after the Thais with big bucks overseas.

 

Who are they to say you spend more to live than a minimum wage Thai.  

 

Besides, most here, legally, are married, retired or working.  If earning, then you probably should get taxed if wanting to live here.  You have choices.

Edited October 23, 2023 by KhunLA

[Ben Zioner]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

Who are they to say you spend more to live than a minimum wage Thai.

That's  what tax inspectors do all over the world.

[KhunLA]

More 'what IF' scenarios ... 😎

 

Flights leave every hour, all day long.  Choose wisely 

[noobexpat]

Just now, Ben Zioner said:

That's  what tax inspectors do all over the world.

 

555 you mean thats why they build super computers to do it, because they don't have the manpower.

 

In UK there is a £ threshold whereby if it doesn’t produce that level, they won't even investigate. 

[KhunLA]

4 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

That's  what tax inspectors do all over the world.

We are talking about a country, that can't even enforce traffic ticket payment.   As millions every year just bin their citations with NO repercussions ... so far.

[Guavaman]

The UK has a remittance-based system of income taxation for non-domiciled tax residents with foreign income, similar to what is being discussed for expat tax residents in Thailand. 

Under the remittance basis of taxation, you will pay tax on UK sources of income and gains, plus any foreign incomes and gains that you remit to (bring into) the UK. In effect, you can exclude foreign incomes and gains from UK taxation – providing that those incomes and gains are kept offshore.

 

 So the main issue is -- What is a remittance?

 

There is not much detailed information on this in the Thai RD tax code, but the UK has a manual on remittances, which might provide some ideas that could surprise you.

 

Here is a thought exercise: “substitute ‘Thailand’ for ‘UK’ in the following examples” from HMRC Residence, Domicile and Remittance Basis Manual:

 

RDRM33050 - Remittance Basis: Practical Examples of Remittances to the UK

Money transfers to the UK

• You transfer some of your foreign income from your offshore bank account to your UK bank account.
• You withdraw some cash from your foreign bank account (that contains your foreign income) whilst overseas and bring the cash with you when you return to the UK.
• You give some of your foreign income to your spouse or civil partner who brings the money to the UK.
• You transfer some of your foreign income to the UK account of a registered Charity.
• You rent out your holiday home abroad and the customer pays the rent directly into your UK bank account.
• You loan some of your foreign income to a company you control overseas or settle some foreign income in an offshore trust. The company or trustees bring the money to the UK.
• You inherited money a few years ago that you deposited into a foreign interest bearing bank account and you transfer some of the money from this account to the UK. Although the inheritance is not taxable when remitted, the account will also contain taxable interest that will be treated as remitted before any of the non taxable inheritance.

Assets brought to the UK

• You buy an asset abroad with your foreign income and bring the asset to the UK.
• You buy a villa overseas using your foreign income which you then sell for a profit. You then transfer the sale proceeds to the UK. This is a remittance of the foreign income used to originally buy the overseas property as well as the foreign chargeable gain.
• You buy a house in the UK (or any other UK based asset) by making a payment of your foreign income to the seller’s overseas account.
• You buy shares or bonds in a UK registered plc from a foreign broker with your foreign income.

Services provided in the UK

• You transfer some of your foreign income from your overseas account to the overseas account of a trader who has provided you with a service in the UK.
• You buy a return air fare from New York to London overseas using your foreign income.
• You book a holiday with a foreign travel agent to sail from Southampton to New York which you pay for with your foreign income.
• You transfer some of your foreign income to the overseas account of a friend in exchange for using his cottage in the UK for a week.

Use of credit cards

• You use a credit card issued by a foreign bank in the UK for day to day expenditure and pay the credit card bill offshore using your foreign income.
• You use a credit card issued by a UK bank while on holiday abroad and pay the credit card bill using your foreign income

Offshore loans

• You take out a mortgage with an offshore bank to buy a house in the UK and make repayments to the bank from your foreign income.
• You take out a loan from an offshore bank secured against your foreign income held by the bank and use the money to fund your life in the UK. The loan requires you to repay the capital and interest after 15 years. As the loan does not have regular monthly repayments this is a remittance of the foreign income used as security when the loan is taken out.

Gifts to others

• You give some of your foreign income to a business colleague (or any other person) overseas who brings it to the UK and makes it available for your use.
• You make a gift of some of your foreign income to your adult son or daughter who lives abroad. Three years later your child gives some of these funds to their 16 year old child (your grandchild), who spends the money during a visit to the UK

Credit card issued in the UK

If a taxpayer who is chargeable on the remittance basis uses a UK credit card to pay for goods or services, either in the UK or overseas and they subsequently settle their credit card bill using foreign income or gains, the payment is a taxable remittance.  The remittance does not have to be received in the UK by the taxpayer, it is sufficient that it is received by the credit card company in the UK.

 

Credit card issued by an overseas bank or other financial institution

Where an overseas credit card is used in the UK, the cardholder is effectively authorising the credit card company to pay the bill for the goods or service in just the same way as if they had instructed the bank to make a payment directly to the person supplying the goods or services.

The use of the individual’s untaxed foreign income or gains to pay the credit card company in respect of the relevant debt will be a taxable remittance.

 

Debit card issued by an overseas bank or other financial institution

Payments for goods or services that are made using a debit card (for example a Visa debit card or one issued under the brand name ‘Cirrus’) issued by an overseas financial institution are treated in exactly the same way as a cash transaction.

 

This means that when goods or services are purchased in the UK using a debit card a taxable remittance is made to the extent of the amount of any overseas income or gains in the bank account. Likewise any cash withdrawals from shops or ATM machines in the UK are taxable cash remittances.

 

Payment by cheque drawn on an overseas account or by electronic transfer of any kind are also treated in exactly the same way as cash and are potentially taxable remittances of overseas income and gains.

 

Notes

The above list of examples is not exhaustive; there are many other ways in which remittances can occur.

(This content has been withheld because of exemptions in the Freedom of Information Act 2000)

-------------------------

If and when the Thai RD gets around to fleshing out details of what constitutes a remittance, they might look to the UK manual for examples – but for now, there is little clarity on remittances to Thailand.

 

Meanwhile, residents of Thailand are well aware of the difference between having laws and enforcing them.

[Neeranam]

Buy Bitcoin and sell P2P on Binance to different Thai accounts.. 

[Neeranam]

Get a crypto.com debit card. 

[Ben Zioner]

1 minute ago, KhunLA said:

We are talking about a country, that can't even enforce traffic ticket payment.   As millions every year just bin their citations with NO repercussions ... so far.

Be optimistic if you wish.  Hope that you know that if they catch  you, they can ask to prove that none of the money you have moved to Thailand was  transferred during the  year it  was earned. They can go back for as many  years as the  want. The proof is on you, you are guilty unless proven innocent.

[KhunLA]

1 minute ago, Ben Zioner said:

Be optimistic if you wish.  Hope that you know that if they catch  you, they can ask to prove that none of the money you have moved to Thailand was  transferred during the  year it  was earned. They can go back for as many  years as the  want. The proof is on you, you are guilty unless proven innocent.

My DD to BBL comes in as 'retirement funds', and fall under the 'tax treaty' as untaxable.

 

No worries here mate 

Bob's Your Uncle

[richard_smith237]

6 hours ago, freeworld said:

Avoidance can also be seen as seeking loopholes to evade paying tax.

 

When someone is deliberately avoiding tax with loopholes means they are trying to keep more govt money for themselves

 

I bet you are the life and soul of the party !!!... 

 

Now... on the avoidance thing... you are wrong...    Using knowledge and loopholes to avoid paying tax is perfectly fair, its what everyone (with a brain) does.

 

 

6 hours ago, freeworld said:

and those working tirelessly in govt positions cant perform their duties to benefit society as a whole.

 

PMSL !!!....  'those in government positions working tirelessly' ???? 

 

IF any government authority were burdened with 'competition' we'd see very clearly how effectively and tirelessly they work !!!...  they'd be shut down very quickly as the competition takes over - the very reason 'government authorities' and the civil service are such cushy numbers is because of the very absence of drive with pushes forward every other industry.

 

[deejai33]

55 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Be optimistic if you wish.  Hope that you know that if they catch  you, they can ask to prove that none of the money you have moved to Thailand was  transferred during the  year it  was earned. They can go back for as many  years as the  want. The proof is on you, you are guilty unless proven innocent.

 

Making this tax avoidance tip explicit:

 

Look at money you had on dec 31st 2022 in your home country accounts.  Doesnt matter where it came, if it was pension, taxed or not.

 

Check how you can prove it was money from 2022 or before.

 

Transfer as much you feel comfortable with before end of 2023.   Its not currently taxable because of the loophole about to close.

 

Cannot use the loophole after jan 2024.    So 2 months left to do this.

 

In 2024, March, voluntarily fill in a tax return, show the transfers of 2022 money.   See what RD says and let us all know outcome ! 

 

[Guavaman]

5 hours ago, KhunLA said:

ATM withdrawals, and how could they tell the difference from someone living here, or a tourist.  For those with a home country bank account, and simple solution.

 

Another would be, if wanting to deposit in your Thai bank, move funds in home country bank to a 401k/retirement fund account, and bring in that way, as most tax treaties don't tax retirement funds/accounts.

 

Best to read your countries tax treaty w/TH.  Along with next year, being 2 full months away, so you could bring over quite a bit now if wanting.

Beware of advice from a guy on a bar stool or an anonymous AN poster that confirms what you want to be true = confirmation bias.

 

ATM withdrawals are remittances of funds into Thailand that are assessable income under Thai Tax Law. Whether or not the RD can find and assess the tax resident who remitted those funds is another issue. Most criminals intend to commit a crime based upon the presumption that they will not be caught and punished. The Thai legal system incorporates the principal of reduction of punishment for offenders who exhibit remorse for their intentional criminal action.

 

For Americans, remittances of private pensions and private retirement plans (including IRAs, annuities, etc.) are taxable in Thailand, if you study the treaty and the US Treasury technical explanation. 

 

Beware of advice without documented sources.