Retirement Extension

[StevieAus]

I have used the income method for more than ten years to obtain the RetirementExtension at the Chiang Mai Immigration Office.

On occasions they have tried to dispute that the income wasn’t sent from Australia as the bank book doesn’t show the code they want.

I have been able to provide documentary evidence that the money was sent from Australia and suspect that this was just an attempt to obtain a “service fee”

I renewed my extension on Wednesday and mentioned to the Immigration Officer that next year I was going to change to the 800,000 baht in the bank method.

He stated that as I was changing method the money would need to be in the bank for one year for the first year.

My understanding was that it only has to be in the bank for 2/3 months and made no comment,

My original visa was a Non Imm O.

I would be interested as to which is correct.

[Skipalongcassidy]

Officially 800,000 baht must be in the bank 2 months before your application...

[hotandsticky]

The general rule (and certainly applicable for Jomtien) is that next year the first thing they will check for is that you have complied with THIS YEAR's terms of approval ie you must make 12 x 65k payments as normal.

 

Also you must season the 800k for 2 months before your application based on funds in the bank.

Edited November 3, 2023 by hotandsticky

[Raindancer]

Why not send a polite email request to the Head of immigration asking fir clarification of the 800.000 baht requirements in the bank, because next year you wish to change from the monthly income method. 

 

No need to mention what you were told by one incorrect officer.

 

See attached image for contact details.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Raindancer

[CMBob]

It is certainly true that the funds only have to be in a Thai bank for 2 months prior to application for those converting to a Non-O visa based on retirement from either an exempt entry or tourist visa.  It's a bit more dicey when talking about converting from the 65k/month method to the "money in the bank" method.

When renewing an extension based on the "money in the bank" method, one must show the standard bank letter and the one-year information (showing 800k in the bank for 3 months after the last application and 2 months prior to the new application....with a minimum of 400k for all other times).  I suspect most immigration officers here in CM would require that for any renewal of an extension based on the "money in the bank" method regardless of the illogical conclusion that this would require the applicant to essentially comply with both methods for the year prior to the new application seeking to change methods.

Edited November 3, 2023 by CMBob

[Red Phoenix]

25 minutes ago, CMBob said:

It is certainly true that the funds only have to be in a Thai bank for 2 months prior to application for those converting to a Non-O visa based on retirement from either an exempt entry or tourist visa.  It's a bit more dicey when talking about converting from the 65k/month method to the "money in the bank" method.

When renewing an extension based on the "money in the bank" method, one must show the standard bank letter and the one-year information (showing 800k in the bank for 3 months after the last application and 2 months prior to the new application....with a minimum of 400k for all other times).  I suspect most immigration officers here in CM would require that for any renewal of an extension based on the "money in the bank" method regardless of the illogical conclusion that this would require the applicant to essentially comply with both methods for the year prior to the new application seeking to change methods.

@StevieAus

When it is confirmed that you simultaneously need to comply with the requirements for BOTH methods, during the full year prior to the new 1-year extension applications, you could of course do the following. 

And that is to exit Thailand without a Re-Entry Permit close to your permission to stay expiry date.

On return you will be stamped in VisaExempt and receive a 30-day permission to stay. 

And then - when having at least 21 days (CM requirement) left on your permission to stay - you simply apply for a NEW 90-day Non Imm O Visa for reason of retirement.

When doing so the +800K (with foreign origins proven or already long-time seasoned on your personal Thai bank-account) only need to be on your bank-account at moment of application. 

Of course there are some drawbacks on doing this:

# Having to exit and re-enter Thailand

# Having to re-do your TM-30 notification after having re-entered

# You would be applying for the 90-day Non Imm O Visa, and hence you would be under consideration after acceptance of the application.  And so that means two visits to the Imm Office before you get the Visa stamp and then 2 months later being able to apply for the 1-year extension based on the 800K 'funds in bank' method. 

# The annual date for your 1-year Permission to stay would change (which might be either convenient or inconvenient).

 

Edited November 3, 2023 by Red Phoenix

[StevieAus]

3 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

@StevieAus

When it is confirmed that you simultaneously need to comply with the requirements for BOTH methods, during the full year prior to the new 1-year extension applications, you could of course do the following. 

And that is to exit Thailand without a Re-Entry Permit close to your permission to stay expiry date.

On return you will be stamped in VisaExempt and receive a 30-day permission to stay. 

And then - when having at least 21 days (CM requirement) left on your permission to stay - you simply apply for a NEW 90-day Non Imm O Visa for reason of retirement.

When doing so the +800K (with foreign origins proven or already long-time seasoned on your personal Thai bank-account) only need to be on your bank-account at moment of application. 

Of course there are some drawbacks on doing this:

# Having to exit and re-enter Thailand

# Having to re-do your TM-30 notification after having re-entered

# You would be applying for the 90-day Non Imm O Visa, and hence you would be under consideration after acceptance of the application.  And so that means two visits to the Imm Office before you get the Visa stamp and then 2 months later being able to apply for the 1-year extension based on the 800K 'funds in bank' method. 

# The annual date for your 1-year Permission to stay would change (which might be either convenient or inconvenient).

 

Thanks for the information that was something that did go through my mind however when I renewed the retirement extension I obtained a multiple re entry permit as we will be making two overseas trips next year 2024 so if I followed your method that would somehow need to be cancelled.

Looks like I will just  deposit the 800,000 baht the monthly money will still come in so that will meet their requirements.

Its a crazy system sometimes !!.

[StevieAus]

3 hours ago, CMBob said:

It is certainly true that the funds only have to be in a Thai bank for 2 months prior to application for those converting to a Non-O visa based on retirement from either an exempt entry or tourist visa.  It's a bit more dicey when talking about converting from the 65k/month method to the "money in the bank" method.

When renewing an extension based on the "money in the bank" method, one must show the standard bank letter and the one-year information (showing 800k in the bank for 3 months after the last application and 2 months prior to the new application....with a minimum of 400k for all other times).  I suspect most immigration officers here in CM would require that for any renewal of an extension based on the "money in the bank" method regardless of the illogical conclusion that this would require the applicant to essentially comply with both methods for the year prior to the new application seeking to change methods.

Thanks for your reply and information, depositing the funds isn’t an issue it just didn’t seem logical,  but then what is at times when dealing with Immigration.

The only reason I want to change is as stated, that is , I tire of them trying to claim that the money is not coming from overseas.

They don’t seem or want to understand that not everyone receives a government pension, in my case it’s a private pension and I use OFX for the transfer therefore the code they want to see doesn’t appear.

It’s just part of the price of living here and their attempt to extract a “fee”.

Thanks again for the explanation.

 

 

[Red Phoenix]

23 minutes ago, StevieAus said:

Thanks for the information that was something that did go through my mind however when I renewed the retirement extension I obtained a multiple re entry permit as we will be making two overseas trips next year 2024 so if I followed your method that would somehow need to be cancelled.

Looks like I will just  deposit the 800,000 baht the monthly money will still come in so that will meet their requirements.

Its a crazy system sometimes !!.

Yes, the Re-Entry Permit will protect your last Wednesday renewed 1-year Permission to Stay, but it does not require cancelling it as you can use it for your 2 trips abroad, and exit and re-enter Thailand during the last days of your current 'protected' Permission to stay. 

Also, and that would be mighty unfortunate, you could already be 'too late' to meet the requirement for showing +800K during the last 12 months for next year's application.  Unless your new Permission to Stay date is mid November or later, and you have the +800K funds transferred from abroad and arriving on your bank-account such that you can show that the funds are there already 12 months when applying for your next 1-year extension.  

But if you would exit and re-enter during the last days of your current Permission to stay, there is also no need to already transfer the +800K now, as you could do that just before or after your re-entered Thailand, as the funds only need to be available at moment of application (21 days before Permission to stay expiry date from your VisaExempt entry).

Edited November 3, 2023 by Red Phoenix

[hotandsticky]

1 minute ago, Red Phoenix said:

Yes, the Re-Entry Permit will protect your last Wednesday renewed 1-year Permission to Stay, and so it would require cancelling that Re-Entry Permit before exiting and re-entering Thailand. 

Also, and that would be mighty unfortunate, you could already be 'too late' to meet the requirement for showing +800K during the last 12 months for next year's application.  Unless your new Permission to Stay date is mid November or later, and you have the +800K funds transferred from abroad and arriving on your bank-account such that you can show that the funds are there already 12 months when applying for your next 1-year extension. .  

 

 

Surely he only has to evidence 800k for 2 months (for the extension being applied for)...the ongoing 65k payments need to be made to satisfy the curr ent terms of approval.

 

 

That is what I did when I switched.

[Red Phoenix]

4 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

Surely he only has to evidence 800k for 2 months (for the extension being applied for)...the ongoing 65k payments need to be made to satisfy the current terms of approval.

That is what I did when I switched.

~

His Imm Officer told him that he would need - on top of the ongoing 65K payments - to provide evidence of 12 months 'funds in bank' for making the switch.  He could of course seek confirmation from the Manager of the Imm Office what is required at his local Imm Office for such switch.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

10 minutes ago, StevieAus said:

Thanks for your reply and information, depositing the funds isn’t an issue it just didn’t seem logical,  but then what is at times when dealing with Immigration.

The only reason I want to change is as stated, that is , I tire of them trying to claim that the money is not coming from overseas.

They don’t seem or want to understand that not everyone receives a government pension, in my case it’s a private pension and I use OFX for the transfer therefore the code they want to see doesn’t appear.

It’s just part of the price of living here and their attempt to extract a “fee”.

Thanks again for the explanation.

 

I recently did an 'experiment' using Wise to transfer money into my Thailand bank account.  Some say I have a big 'attention to details' and others say something else. I say that more ships are lost at sea on the rocks near shore (the details) than are lost in the huge open oceans.

As part of the process to transfer money, Wise asks what the money is for (you must click on one of the boxes).

The first time I did this I clicked on the box that said something like 'To meet overseas Visa requirements'.

The amount when it arrived was noted in the bankbook as "FTT" and online it was noted as "International Transfer"

The second time for a much smaller amount, I clicked on 'living expenses' and it was noted in the bankbook as "BTN" and online it was noted as  "Transfer from A/c at Other Bank".

There are also other boxes - including 'to buy a property' - I assume that one and all the others will provide a different code/s.

 

Does OFX request a reason for the transfer?  Maybe try Wise for your next transfer?

[hotandsticky]

14 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

~

His Imm Officer told him that he would need - on top of the ongoing 65K payments - to provide evidence of 12 months 'funds in bank' for making the switch.  He could of course seek confirmation from the Manager of the Imm Office what is required at his local Imm Office for such switch.

 

 

I would.... that doesn't sound at all right to me.

[Eff1n2ret]

4 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Does OFX request a reason for the transfer?

Yes, but I don't recall seeing such as 'To meet overseas Visa requirements' as suggested above. The options I have ticked are either "Pension payment" or "Living expenses" - but I don't rely on income transfers for my retirement extensions.

[BritTim]

12 hours ago, StevieAus said:

He stated that as I was changing method the money would need to be in the bank for one year for the first year.

My understanding was that it only has to be in the bank for 2/3 months and made no comment,

 

This is open to interpretation. For a first extension the money must be in the bank for two months prior to the application. For subsequent applications based on money in the bank, there must be 800,000 baht in the bank for three months after the last extension was given and for two months before the new extension, with 400,000 baht in the bank for the rest of the year.

 

The rules when changing between income and money in the bank are not clearly described. What I think is logical is either:

(i) Income for the first part of the year; changing to money in the bank when the 400k/800k requirements are met; or

(ii) 800k/400k/800k covering the full year.

In any case, income/money in the bank for the entire duration of the previous extended stay is clearly the intended qualification for a further extension.

[hotandsticky]

6 minutes ago, BritTim said:

 

This is open to interpretation. For a first extension the money must be in the bank for two months prior to the application. For subsequent applications based on money in the bank, there must be 800,000 baht in the bank for three months after the last extension was given and for two months before the new extension, with 400,000 baht in the bank for the rest of the year.

 

The rules when changing between income and money in the bank are not clearly described. What I think is logical is either:

(i) Income for the first part of the year; changing to money in the bank when the 400k/800k requirements are met; or

(ii) 800k/400k/800k covering the full year.

In any case, income/money in the bank for the entire duration of the previous extended stay is clearly the intended qualification for a further extension.

 

 

To satisfy Jomtien you have to evidence 12 x 65k transfers because that was the basis of approval of your LAST extension. For the new application the 2 month seasoning rule would additionally apply.

 

I would be inclined to ask the local office (preferably a different I/O) if that would be appropriate in your case, for that office.

[BritTim]

3 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

To satisfy Jomtien you have to evidence 12 x 65k transfers because that was the basis of approval of your LAST extension. For the new application the 2 month seasoning rule would additionally apply.

 

I would be inclined to ask the local office (preferably a different I/O) if that would be appropriate in your case, for that office.

 

I am sure that Jomtien's interpretation is not logical and not the intention of those who drafted the regulations. That said, of course, whatever rules the local immigration office decides to impose will apply.

 

The original intention was never for your actions over the following 12 months to be part of your qualification for the previous year's extension. Should that be so, you would be on overstay as soon as you failed to satisfy the conditions of last year's extension. It is intended to determine whether you meet the requirements for the new extension, and you should be able to do this using either income or money in the bank. Stating that you must have an overlay year when you satisfy both is illogical.

[arithai12]

This seems to me a case in which availing oneself of the service of a good agent is well justified.

[Wuvu2]

9 hours ago, arithai12 said:

This seems to me a case in which availing oneself of the service of a good agent is well justified.

I did it all myself with qualifying 800k deposits for many years. I gave up jumping through shifting hoops and started using a well-recommended agent a few years ago. I couldn't be more pleased with the service.  It cost less than 2% of the 800k in fees, which I recover in interest by leaving the money in my investment account in my home country. 

[hotandsticky]

47 minutes ago, Wuvu2 said:

I did it all myself with qualifying 800k deposits for many years. I gave up jumping through shifting hoops and started using a well-recommended agent a few years ago. I couldn't be more pleased with the service.  It cost less than 2% of the 800k in fees, which I recover in interest by leaving the money in my investment account in my home country. 

 

 

I do even better.

 

I keep the 800k and earn a return on that; I also show monthly income to satisfy Immigration on the extension application - and I don't pay 16,000 Baht to an agent. 

[Drumbuie]

From UK, to Thailand  Wise's reasons for transfer are: 

Sending money home to family

General monthly living expenses

Rent or other property expenses

Tuition fees or studying expenses

Travel expenses

Medical expenses

Charitable donations

Property purchase

Pay for goods

Pay for services

Funds for long term stay in Thailand. 

 

Nothing about visas. Usually if I tick the last option, the transfer is marked as a foreign funds transfer but before I went for the extension ( based on 800k) I printed all my bank statements for the year, took them to the bank, asked them for a letter verifying that all the transfers came from overseas. Which they did. And that went down well at CW, possibly because it made their job just a little easier. Can't remember if they charged for that but if they did it was only 100 baht. 

Btw, it helps if you treat the bank people as fellow humans. One of them told me I was the first farang who'd ever been nice to her. All I did was commiserate over the previous customer who'd been petulant and rude. 

15 hours ago, Eff1n2ret said:

Yes, but I don't recall seeing such as 'To meet overseas Visa requirements' as suggested above. The options I have ticked are either "Pension payment" or "Living expenses" - but I don't rely on income transfers for my retirement extensions.

 

[khunPer]

On 11/3/2023 at 3:07 AM, StevieAus said:

I would be interested as to which is correct.

To my understand, when changing extension of stay method, you will need to either:

Have 12 x minimum 65,000 baht monthly transfers from abroad plus an 800,000 baht deposit two month prior to your application for extension of stay; you need to prove that you have fulfilled permission for the last extension with the 12 x 65,000 baht.

 

or:

800,000 baht deposit in three month from your last date for extensions of stay, thereafter the deposit can de reduced to 400,000 baht until two month before next application for extension of stay, where it has to be topped up again to 800,000 baht. Keeping a straight 800,000 baht deposit for the whole year is the easy way, if you can afford it.

[StevieAus]

On 11/4/2023 at 3:10 PM, khunPer said:

To my understand, when changing extension of stay method, you will need to either:

Have 12 x minimum 65,000 baht monthly transfers from abroad plus an 800,000 baht deposit two month prior to your application for extension of stay; you need to prove that you have fulfilled permission for the last extension with the 12 x 65,000 baht.

 

or:

800,000 baht deposit in three month from your last date for extensions of stay, thereafter the deposit can de reduced to 400,000 baht until two month before next application for extension of stay, where it has to be topped up again to 800,000 baht. Keeping a straight 800,000 baht deposit for the whole year is the easy way, if you can afford it.

Thanks that’s what I will do

[StevieAus]

On 11/4/2023 at 9:18 AM, Drumbuie said:

From UK, to Thailand  Wise's reasons for transfer are: 

Sending money home to family

General monthly living expenses

Rent or other property expenses

Tuition fees or studying expenses

Travel expenses

Medical expenses

Charitable donations

Property purchase

Pay for goods

Pay for services

Funds for long term stay in Thailand. 

 

Nothing about visas. Usually if I tick the last option, the transfer is marked as a foreign funds transfer but before I went for the extension ( based on 800k) I printed all my bank statements for the year, took them to the bank, asked them for a letter verifying that all the transfers came from overseas. Which they did. And that went down well at CW, possibly because it made their job just a little easier. Can't remember if they charged for that but if they did it was only 100 baht. 

Btw, it helps if you treat the bank people as fellow humans. One of them told me I was the first farang who'd ever been nice to her. All I did was commiserate over the previous customer who'd been petulant and rude. 

 

My money doesn’t come from the UK but Australia I also have an excellent relationship with the bank staff once I change over it shouldn’t be a problem thanks for you contribution.

[StevieAus]

On 11/3/2023 at 10:24 PM, BritTim said:

 

I am sure that Jomtien's interpretation is not logical and not the intention of those who drafted the regulations. That said, of course, whatever rules the local immigration office decides to impose will apply.

 

The original intention was never for your actions over the following 12 months to be part of your qualification for the previous year's extension. Should that be so, you would be on overstay as soon as you failed to satisfy the conditions of last year's extension. It is intended to determine whether you meet the requirements for the new extension, and you should be able to do this using either income or money in the bank. Stating that you must have an overlay year when you satisfy both is illogical.

Unfortunately as are many of the rules or the way they are interpretation especially in Chiang Mai

[StevieAus]

On 11/3/2023 at 10:27 PM, arithai12 said:

This seems to me a case in which availing oneself of the service of a good agent is well justified.

I use one but these are the rules they apply in Chiang Mai

[StevieAus]

On 11/3/2023 at 10:04 PM, BritTim said:

 

This is open to interpretation. For a first extension the money must be in the bank for two months prior to the application. For subsequent applications based on money in the bank, there must be 800,000 baht in the bank for three months after the last extension was given and for two months before the new extension, with 400,000 baht in the bank for the rest of the year.

 

The rules when changing between income and money in the bank are not clearly described. What I think is logical is either:

(i) Income for the first part of the year; changing to money in the bank when the 400k/800k requirements are met; or

(ii) 800k/400k/800k covering the full year.

In any case, income/money in the bank for the entire duration of the previous extended stay is clearly the intended qualification for a further extension.

Thanks for the response

 

[paddypower]

On 11/3/2023 at 10:14 PM, hotandsticky said:

 

 

To satisfy Jomtien you have to evidence 12 x 65k transfers because that was the basis of approval of your LAST extension. For the new application the 2 month seasoning rule would additionally apply.

 

I would be inclined to ask the local office (preferably a different I/O) if that would be appropriate in your case, for that office.

I am curious as to this interpretation of the financial requirements. several posters have referred to the need to have 65k x 12 month's income. I wish to switch fully to the income method from the 800k deposit, (the latter method which i have used for the past 25 years). I think I am getting a misinterpretation of the 2.22 regs. For background - sometimes I don't need the pension monies, so I leave them accumulate  and then transfer 2 months worth. This has freaked out the IO. she received the copy of my Canadian bank account, saw this and, to quote her : ''why did you not have any pension income coming into Thailand in that month?''. I had  a Thai friend (who takes care of a number of expats visa requirements) meet with the IO. But she was unable to explain to the IO that you do not need to have 12 months transfers @ 65k to meet the regs., when you have a total of 800,000 baht transferred in the 12 months. I'm not sure if this complicates  matters (always a danger!) - but having emigrated twice, I have pensions coming in from each of 2 countries. This does not seem to have bothered the IO, she just asked for copies of both sets of bank statements, this has been bounced back and forwards for a month now. I've lost patience as I need to free up some funds. I plan to go to IO tomorrow. Any advice on how to present my position successfully? tia.

[paddypower]

On 11/4/2023 at 8:43 AM, hotandsticky said:

 

 

I do even better.

 

I keep the 800k and earn a return on that; I also show monthly income to satisfy Immigration on the extension application - and I don't pay 16,000 Baht to an agent. 

looking forward to more info on your experiences. my Thai friend (also a friend of the IO) says, ''just leave 100k on deposit to keep them happy'' . I would - but my wife gets ''carried'' (aka piggy-back'd)  on my visa extension, so I don't want to frack up.

Edited January 3 by paddypower
spell

[hotandsticky]

2 hours ago, paddypower said:

I am curious as to this interpretation of the financial requirements. several posters have referred to the need to have 65k x 12 month's income. I wish to switch fully to the income method from the 800k deposit, (the latter method which i have used for the past 25 years). I think I am getting a misinterpretation of the 2.22 regs. For background - sometimes I don't need the pension monies, so I leave them accumulate  and then transfer 2 months worth. This has freaked out the IO. she received the copy of my Canadian bank account, saw this and, to quote her : ''why did you not have any pension income coming into Thailand in that month?''. I had  a Thai friend (who takes care of a number of expats visa requirements) meet with the IO. But she was unable to explain to the IO that you do not need to have 12 months transfers @ 65k to meet the regs., when you have a total of 800,000 baht transferred in the 12 months. I'm not sure if this complicates  matters (always a danger!) - but having emigrated twice, I have pensions coming in from each of 2 countries. This does not seem to have bothered the IO, she just asked for copies of both sets of bank statements, this has been bounced back and forwards for a month now. I've lost patience as I need to free up some funds. I plan to go to IO tomorrow. Any advice on how to present my position successfully? tia.

 

 

Immigration changed from 800k per annum to 65k each (and every) month sometime ago.

 

Buriram and Jomtien will not accept any deviation from this.