Change in the tax law does target expats living in Thailand and extends reporting obligations

[Sheryl]

12 hours ago, Lorry said:

Contrary to what you write,  the new regulation is a huge change - and is correctly viewed as such by lawyers and tax advisers. 

 

Yes, in theory a pensioner who had his pension credited to his Thai bank account,  has always owed tax.

Yes, in theory he should have filed a tax return. 

 

De facto, nobody ever cared. 

The RD didn't expect foreign pensioners to file a tax return (some pensioners who tried, report being told to forget about it).

The RD didn't expect them to pay taxes , either. 

 

The law didn't change - but, as the poster "Thailand" had written - the practice seems to change. Today was the first time in over 20 years that I heard bank staff utter the word "RD".

 

 

 

It is way to soon to assume that the RD "practice" with regard to retirees has changed.

 

The bank staff were responding to an overall requirement not one specific to, or primarily aimed at, foreign retirees.

 

To specifically go after retirees would be a huge amount of work for the RD in exchange for very small returns. Many retiree's remittances are still not taxable (mine certainly are), and figuring out which are and which are nto would in ite=self be a huge hassle. Just does not make sense to make that a priority and the only indication that it would be is coming from  assumptions posted online.

 

 

[Sheryl]

34 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I don't know what the new way of handling this will be but in the past the RD didn't appear to actively pursue people who brought money in, regardless of when it was earned. My guess is that if the money was declared in the UK, you/me should be free and clear to import those funds and that will be the end of it. It gets to be too complicated trying to figure out is that 500 Pounds in rent that you just transferred to Thailand was earned when and if it was taxed. There's no mileage in the RD deploying staff to check things at this level, it's not productive. My guess again is that if you filed a UK tax return that showed you declared rental income, that's enough to prevent further questions.

 

They likely will start at least asking questions (as will banks) when very large sums are brought in.

[Sheryl]

6 hours ago, UKresonant said:

https://thelegal.co.th/2023/10/18/qa-statement-issued-by-revenue-department-clarifying-taxation-applied-on-foreign-sourced-income/

"(2) Non-Resident Income: The Order explains that if a person is not a resident of Thailand during the year in which they earn income, they do not need to include that income in their tax calculations, even if they bring that income into Thailand in a subsequent year when they are a resident. For example, Mr. B earns income from a rental property abroad in a year when he is not considered a resident of Thailand. Then He brings this income into Thailand in a following year when he is a resident, he is not required to calculate such income as assessable income and shall not be subjected to taxation in the year that those money brought into Thailand."

 

Transient statement, or may it work that way I wonder.

Great, thanks a  lot.

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

It is way to soon to assume that the RD "practice" with regard to retirees has changed.

 

The Doomers & Gloomers play golf and have coffee on a daily basis with this guy

 

 

He personally briefs the Doomers & Gloomers on a daily basis 

 

The only rational explanation for the BS posted as fact across various threads

[The Cyclist]

51 minutes ago, topt said:

I note it only uses the word "may" be taxed.

So if you have already been taxed in the UK and then you bring in and is taxed in Thailand what happens

 

My opinion only and not dressed up as a fact.

 

The ' May '  allows that income to be taxed in either Country. I am still working on the basis ( until I am directed by the Thai Gov / RD differently ) that income that has been taxed in the UK will probably not be further taxed in Thailand.

[Yumthai]

Speculating about laws/rules changes and implications is entertaining however the only key and relevant official statement that we should all wait for is: "From (date) TRD will strictly start enforcing its own laws." Until then, it's business as usual.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Yumthai

[Puccini]

8 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

But that's  the case all over the  world. Income Tax  always  targets  the "soft" middle class. The rich use the power of their money, the workers class is exempted since they may take the streets.

 

The only fair system would be a flat income tax combined with an effective wealth and inheritance tax.

 

I don't like the tax on assets (wealth and inheritance tax). It is a punitive tax for not having spent all the income when one earned it, the way some political groups advocate one should do and then depend on social security and government subsidies in old age.

 

Having paid tax when earning the he money should suffice, without an additional tax, usually repetitive annually, for failing to spend part of it.

[Ben Zioner]

9 minutes ago, Puccini said:

I don't like the tax on assets (wealth and inheritance tax). It is a punitive tax for not having spent all the income when one earned it, the way some political groups advocate one should do and then depend on social security and government subsidies in old age.

You'd have  to place the threshold very high so that it becomes punitive only for the ultra rich who don't contribute their fair share this gives the situation in the USA, but is way more obscene in Thailand.

 

I'd happily pay my tax here if I was certain it doesn't feed corruption and the rich stopped sucking the blood of the masses.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Ben Zioner

[LikeItHot]

So you are second class human that can't buy land and need to report your wearabouts constantly but will be fully taxed on foreign income.  Okay Thailand.  Be careful what you wish for.

[Puccini]

2 hours ago, topt said:

...I note it only uses the word "may" be taxed.

So if you have already been taxed in the UK and then you bring in and is taxed in Thailand what happens with regards to credits etc? Has this happened or do you just not bring in (up to now) in the year you earned it?

 

I had asked myself the same question and found the answer in this post:

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1306896-thai-government-to-tax-all-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024/?do=findComment&comment=18476037

 

[topt]

8 minutes ago, Puccini said:

 

I had asked myself the same question and found the answer in this post:

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1306896-thai-government-to-tax-all-income-from-abroad-for-tax-residents-starting-2024/?do=findComment&comment=18476037

 

Thanks for pulling that out.

Interesting the yanks have a "technical explanation" on DTA wording.  There may be an HMRC one but I could not locate it with that level of detail.

[Lorry]

4 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Many retiree's remittances are still not taxable (mine certainly are), and figuring out which are and which are nto would in ite=self be a huge hassle. Just does not make sense to make that a priority and the only indication that it would be is coming from  assumptions

Not only assumptions. 

 

In the main thread,  a guy  actually went to his tax office and asked them, upcountry in Phitsanuloke.

They confirmed the new procedure and did the obvious and very simple thing: they just taxed all his remittances. Neither he nor the tax official bothered about complicated things like DTA.

BTW his remittances are 40k monthly iirc and tax was very little. 

[stat]

22 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Yes I know this thread quite well, but which post says that?

 

So far the understanding is that Income earned and remitted while under LTR isn't taxable. To change that they would have to repeal Royal decree 743. Or ignore it, but that could be construed as a crime.

Pls click the link to the thread I supplied which leads you to page 80. When you open the link it is the 2nd post :-)

Edited November 8, 2023 by stat

[Sheryl]

4 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Not only assumptions. 

 

In the main thread,  a guy  actually went to his tax office and asked them, upcountry in Phitsanuloke.

They confirmed the new procedure and did the obvious and very simple thing: they just taxed all his remittances. Neither he nor the tax official bothered about complicated things like DTA.

BTW his remittances are 40k monthly iirc and tax was very little. 

 

I strongly suspect that

 

1) the income was not from a source exempted under a DTA

2) He is considered non resident for tax purposes in his home country, or else is below a threshold so does nto file tax return there

 

Of course in that case, it is taxable and if being directly remitted, always has been.  And DTA has no effect since not paying taxes in home country.

 

The "new procedure" i.e. the new regulation takes effect 1 January. If he has already been taxed then it has nothing to do with the new regulation.

 

 

 

[stat]

14 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Not only assumptions. 

 

In the main thread,  a guy  actually went to his tax office and asked them, upcountry in Phitsanuloke.

They confirmed the new procedure and did the obvious and very simple thing: they just taxed all his remittances. Neither he nor the tax official bothered about complicated things like DTA.

BTW his remittances are 40k monthly iirc and tax was very little. 

This is exactly what I was stating the whole time. They will try to tax everything that you remitt and the burden will be on you to prove otherwise. My GUESS is that for pensions it COULD be easy but for all other monies (capital gains, real estate sale etc) it will be very difficult to prove those monies have been taxed already. Just remember that for the health insurance they want a signed copy by tow board members that the health policy is in accordance with a thai cabinet decission. Now you get an idea what kind of documentation they will demand from your home country tax inspector. The IRS at home has no interest in confirming anyting btw

Edited November 8, 2023 by stat

[stat]

3 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

I strongly suspect that

 

1) the income was not from a source exempted under a DTA

2) He is considered non resident for tax purposes in his home country, or else is below a threshold so does nto file tax return there

 

Of course in that case, it is taxable and if being directly remitted, always has been.  And DTA has no effect since not paying taxes in home country.

 

The "new procedure" i.e. the new regulation takes effect 1 January. If he has already been taxed then it has nothing to do with the new regulation.

 

 

 

The law has not been changed the law will just be applied more strictly, so if even under the old application the guy was fully taxed it is obvious that under the new directive you will start paying more. In that regard it is a good indicator.

[Lorry]

4 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

I strongly suspect that

 

1) the income was not from a source exempted under a DTA

2) He is considered non resident for tax purposes in his home country, or else is below a threshold so does nto file tax return there

Now, these are are your assumptions :)

 

But my point was different,  @stat has understood it: they just taxed all remittances,  couldn't be bothered about the kind of intricacies you suspect. 

 

[Straight8]

On 11/6/2023 at 12:49 PM, freeworld said:

Nope, you get to use govt subsidised, implemeted and maintained services and infrastructure, access to police, the courts, local authorities and best of all you get to interact regularly with the immigration dept.

drinking coolade

[Mike Lister]

11 hours ago, Lorry said:

Not only assumptions. 

 

In the main thread,  a guy  actually went to his tax office and asked them, upcountry in Phitsanuloke.

They confirmed the new procedure and did the obvious and very simple thing: they just taxed all his remittances. Neither he nor the tax official bothered about complicated things like DTA.

BTW his remittances are 40k monthly iirc and tax was very little. 

That poster was @KannikaP who may wish to comment. Firstly, have you ever been to the tax office in Bang Rakam where that poster went, the center of the Thai tax system it is not! To say that tax office confirmed the new procedure is a stretch too far when hundreds of others around the country are unable to do so. What happened was that poster got an answer he was happy with and left it there, that's all.

 

 

11 hours ago, stat said:

This is exactly what I was stating the whole time. They will try to tax everything that you remitt and the burden will be on you to prove otherwise. My GUESS is that for pensions it COULD be easy but for all other monies (capital gains, real estate sale etc) it will be very difficult to prove those monies have been taxed already. Just remember that for the health insurance they want a signed copy by tow board members that the health policy is in accordance with a thai cabinet decission. Now you get an idea what kind of documentation they will demand from your home country tax inspector. The IRS at home has no interest in confirming anyting btw

The rebuttal to your post is above, quit the constant paranoid worst case scenario fearmongering, it's not good for anyone.

[jerrymahoney]

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The rebuttal to your post is above, quit the constant paranoid worst case scenario fearmongering, it's not good for anyone.

Redux:

 

According to the Revenue Department, it will seek opinions from the stakeholders affected by the new rule and issue guidelines to provide more clarity. The plan includes an amendment of the personal income tax return form to facilitate the foreign tax credit claim.

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Thailand-Tax-Foreign-Income-Taxable-from-2024

[anotherexpat4444]

 

[Mike Lister]

10 minutes ago, anotherexpat4444 said:

 

What is the point of posting useless youtube videos like this, they don't add new information and they don't contain information by anyone who is even in Thailand? They don't add value to the debate, all they do is add more fearmongering but without any substance. 

[hondoelsinore]

24 minutes ago, anotherexpat4444 said:

 

The Hell lies in the fact that someone listens to that horrible accent, especially when it's the same ole sh*t that has been spouted before. Why?

[anotherexpat4444]

10 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

What is the point of posting useless youtube videos like this, they don't add new information and they don't contain information by anyone who is even in Thailand? They don't add value to the debate, all they do is add more fearmongering but without any substance. 

it helped me know the thailand tax website https://rd.go.th/english/6045.html

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, anotherexpat4444 said:

it helped me know the thailand tax website https://rd.go.th/english/6045.html

For everyone else there's always google or any of the fifty or so posts on this subject that link appears in!

[KannikaP]

13 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

I strongly suspect that

 

1) the income was not from a source exempted under a DTA

2) He is considered non resident for tax purposes in his home country, or else is below a threshold so does nto file tax return there

 

Of course in that case, it is taxable and if being directly remitted, always has been.  And DTA has no effect since not paying taxes in home country.

 

The "new procedure" i.e. the new regulation takes effect 1 January. If he has already been taxed then it has nothing to do with the new regulation.

 

 

 

My income is UK State Pension, the annual total being below the £12570 threshold, so I am taxed at 0%.

I do not file a tax return as I live here 365 days a year.

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, jerrymahoney said:

Redux:

 

According to the Revenue Department, it will seek opinions from the stakeholders affected by the new rule and issue guidelines to provide more clarity. The plan includes an amendment of the personal income tax return form to facilitate the foreign tax credit claim.

 

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Thailand-Tax-Foreign-Income-Taxable-from-2024

Many thanks, this paper summarises the current situation, and its conclusion ("During the period of unclarity, we recommend that Thai resident taxpayers review their income from a foreign source that has been kept in an offshore bank account and consider bringing such income into Thailand within December 2023.")  confirm a course of action I have already taken.

 

And I did this even though I have an LTR/WP visa and only transfer savings from pensions. Hence I give myself breathing space to assess the situation as it develops in the forthcoming year"s.

 

Hopefully.

 

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, hondoelsinore said:

The Hell lies in the fact that someone listens to that horrible accent, especially when it's the same ole sh*t that has been spouted before. Why?

Wonder what your accent  sounds  like when you speak French.

[hondoelsinore]

3 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Wonder what your accent  sounds  like when you speak French.

I wouldn't even attempt to speak English with such a heavy accent, but the world is full of idiots, especially on YouTube. 

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

What is the point of posting useless youtube videos like this, they don't add new information and they don't contain information by anyone who is even in Thailand? They don't add value to the debate, all they do is add more fearmongering but without any substance. 

I agree that most of it has been repeated ad nauseam here. But his intro point is right to the point: cancel or postpone your plans to move to Thailand, at least until things get clearer.