Living in Thailand using only ATM money for more than 6-months - tax consequences

[jerrymahoney]

I just deposit via FTT 65K+ baht per month for retirement extension. No minimum balance. No 800K in the bank and no agent fee.

 

However this topic is about some possible taxation regime and I would not be sure that using an agent and ATM withdrawals is going to allow someone to totally avoid (or evade) it

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[BE88]

1 hour ago, rhodie said:

If you believe your money in a Thai bank is more secure than my investment in the West, go for it. I have more peace of mind with my investment than I have with Thai banks. 

 

Thai government guarantee of up to B1 million. This I call peace of mid no your bankruptcy western bank.

[rhodie]

1 hour ago, BE88 said:

 

Thai government guarantee of up to B1 million. This I call peace of mid no your bankruptcy western bank.

Yes, but what if someone steals the money from your account. You may have a hard time getting it back. No guarantees from Thai banks. System here is fraught with problems when money is removed. Not saying you wouldn't get your money back but...

 

My money isn't in a bank. It is spread across multiple low risk investments and institutions. Western banks guarantee a lot more than 1 million baht on deposits.

 

I'm glad you sleep well. I do too.

[BE88]

2 hours ago, rhodie said:

Yes, but what if someone steals the money from your account. You may have a hard time getting it back. No guarantees from Thai banks. System here is fraught with problems when money is removed. Not saying you wouldn't get your money back but...

 

My money isn't in a bank. It is spread across multiple low risk investments and institutions. Western banks guarantee a lot more than 1 million baht on deposits.

 

I'm glad you sleep well. I do too.

 

You have a problem with Thai banks I see ?

 

Who take my non-transferable money here? Government guarantee.

 

Yes I sleep very well, thank you

 

 

 

 

[CartagenaWarlock]

7 hours ago, BE88 said:

Investment means risk and the more profits you receive the more risks, so one day you may no longer have your money to guarantee your visa and not even the money to pay your agent.

Good luck.

I have not known any time in history when somebody who invests in the S&P index (15%) and CDs (5%) has lost everything. If living in a fantasy world and earning a meagre 1-2% comforts you, so be it. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by CartagenaWarlock

[BE88]

40 minutes ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

I have not known any time in history when somebody who invests in the S&P index (15%) and CDs (5%) has lost everything. If living in a fantasy world and earning a meagre 1-2% comforts you, so be it. 

 

 

 

The Swiss national bank loses over 100 billion Frs a few months ago, they are certainly stupid and incompetent compared to you two who are the most financial experts in which you only play a few pennies.

 

 

[CartagenaWarlock]

Just now, BE88 said:

The Swiss national bank loses over 100 billion Frs a few months ago,

You're a certified crazy person. comparing the investment of a bank with a personal investment. 

[BE88]

1 hour ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

You're a certified crazy person. comparing the investment of a bank with a personal investment. 

And you are a scammer coming here telling stories about your financial capabilities

[acepredator]

10 hours ago, BE88 said:

 

Thai government guarantee of up to B1 million. This I call peace of mid no your bankruptcy western bank.

If the Thai government guaranteed that the sun would rise in the east tomorrow morning I wouldn't believe them. If you think that the Thai government is honest, uncorruptible, or competent than you must not have lived here very long. If you have lived here for a significant period of time and still believe anything the government says than you must be using some extremely powerful hallucinogenic drugs or just be completely out of touch with reality. Thanks very much, but I'll keep my money outside of Thailand where a government guarantee is actually worth more than the piece of paper it's printed on.  

[jerrymahoney]

9 hours ago, acepredator said:

Thanks very much, but I'll keep my money outside of Thailand where a government guarantee is actually worth more than the piece of paper it's printed on.  

Keeping my money outside Thailand for some, or most, means they ae engaging the services of an agent for an extension of stay.

 

For people seeking a one-year extension of stay, whether via retirement or marriage, there would be financial records of their 800K baht balance and/or 65K+ baht per month FTT deposits and copies of their current passport showing whether they then spent 180+ days per year in the Kingdom.

 

... except if they use an agent.

 

While one might ponder whether the Revenue people know such I-just-use-an-agent arrangements exist, if they do, the Revenue folks might not be happy with such arrangements as they could also serve to facilitate large scale evasion of Thailand income taxes.
 

[acepredator]

15 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

Keeping my money outside Thailand for some, or most, means they ae engaging the services of an agent for an extension of stay.

 

For people seeking a one-year extension of stay, whether via retirement or marriage, there would be financial records of their 800K baht balance and/or 65K+ baht per month FTT deposits and copies of their current passport showing whether they then spent 180+ days per year in the Kingdom.

 

... except if they use an agent.

 

While one might ponder whether the Revenue people know such I-just-use-an-agent arrangements exist, if they do, the Revenue folks might not be happy with such arrangements as they could also serve to facilitate large scale evasion of Thailand income taxes.
 

I don't know which agents you're  referring to, but the agents I've talked to here in Chiang Mai follow the rules as put forth by the Immigration Office. You need the 800,000 in the bank or the monthly 65,000 in order to get a visa. There's nothing the agents here can do if you don't meet those requirements. One agent told me that some agents in Pattaya can put 800,000 in the bank for you just long enough to get the visa, and then they get the money back plus some fee, whatever that would be. When I asked if she could do the same, she was absolutely clear that she could and would not do so and that neither would any other agent in Chiang Mai. 

 

I only asked the agent out of curiosity because I do not need such a service. I keep 800,000 in a Bangkok Bank fixed account year round. My post was not very clear. When I said I would not keep my money in Thailand, I meant any money other than the 800,000 in Bangkok Bank, which I have no choice but to keep here. For example, I would not invest in property or the Thai stock market. My 800,000 has been safe for many years, and, barring a financial catastrophe, I expect that to be the case throughout the remainder of my time here.

[jerrymahoney]

7 hours ago, acepredator said:

My post was not very clear. When I said I would not keep my money in Thailand, I meant any money other than the 800,000 in Bangkok Bank, which I have no choice but to keep here.

OK. But others on here including the OP were more clear in that they do not intend to have the 800K baht sitting in the bank and still get their extension of stay.

Edited December 7, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[acepredator]

16 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

OK. But others on here including the OP were more clear in that they do not intend to have the 800K baht sitting in the bank and still get their extension of stay.

If people living in other parts of Thailand are able to do so by using shady visa agents, then more power to them. To reiterate what I said in my post, the visa agents in Chiang Mai follow the Immigration Department rules to the letter. Because I don't have 65k in retirement money, I have no choice but to keep the 800k in the bank. I suppose I could move to Pattaya, but I'm not prepared to do so, being happy enough with my present circumstances. 

[jerrymahoney]

To the above: This topic, however, is about how one can stay in Thailand 6+ months per year and bring in money from ex-Thailand in a manner that leaves no financial record that might subject one to Thai income taxes.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 12/3/2023 at 6:23 AM, ukrules said:

But CRS sends end of year balances and throughput on accounts - that's it.

 

What did you expect CRS to be? Some kind of advanced statement reporting detailing your every transaction

 

CRS seems more focused on tracking and reporting/sharing taxable income generated like interest, dividends, etc...

 

I haven't seen anything indicating that CRS is aimed at or intended to track spending.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

CRS seems more focused on tracking and reporting/sharing taxable income generated like interest, dividends, etc...

 

I haven't seen anything indicating that CRS is aimed at or intended to track spending.

Poster @stat will know, he's a CRS expert.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 12/3/2023 at 11:06 AM, bamnutsak said:

The consensus here and elsewhere is that ATM withdrawals would probably be considered accessible income.

 

An online panel of expat tax advisors hosted by the American Chamber of Commerce here this morning basically opined that foreign card ATM withdrawals and purchases made here with foreign bank cards are likely to be considered foreign remittances into Thailand subject to local taxation. Although they added that the Thai Revenue Dept. hasn't yet specifically opined on that topic.

 

However, potentially making that a declaration of their new taxation scheme and actually implementing it against many tens of thousands of expats living and spending in Thailand are probably two very different things.

 

[CartagenaWarlock]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

However, potentially making that a declaration of their new taxation scheme and actually implementing it against many tens of thousands of expats living and spending in Thailand are probably two very different things.

I believe they will start with voluntary disclosure. If you lie, you can be prosecuted. However, I'm not sure when they will do that. For non-Os, it can be during the renewal. For others, it may be when you enter Thailand. They can randomly pick a few hundred every year and do an audit to verify the veracity of voluntary disclosure. I believe you pay taxes when your earnings are more than 7500 baht, excluding health insurance deductions. Married people with children can get many more deductions, including health insurance expenses. At last, it will pay off for "wify" visa holders. Singles are doomed.

Edited December 15, 2023 by CartagenaWarlock

[TPDH]

As a Thai tax resident, do you pay income tax on foreign sourced income even if you never transfer that money into Thailand? My home country in Europe taxes worldwide income no matter if it's remitted to my country or not. But not sure about Thailand. 

 

Example: If you are a Thai tax resident in 2024 and let's say you earn $100K in stock profits in the US stock market during 2024. If you never remit any of those profits into Thailand, do you still need to pay any tax on those capital gains? 

 

[topt]

46 minutes ago, TPDH said:

As a Thai tax resident, do you pay income tax on foreign sourced income even if you never transfer that money into Thailand? My home country in Europe taxes worldwide income no matter if it's remitted to my country or not. But not sure about Thailand. 

 

Example: If you are a Thai tax resident in 2024 and let's say you earn $100K in stock profits in the US stock market during 2024. If you never remit any of those profits into Thailand, do you still need to pay any tax on those capital gains? 

 

No - not under current laws/directives.

[jacob29]

On 12/4/2023 at 2:13 PM, Searat7 said:

I stay here 7 months a year and plan to bring cash from USA when I return to Bangkok if taxation actually becomes an issue. One is allowed to bring in $20,000 without declaration. 

You still (mostly) need to exchange it at a money changer.. which is not too hard to work around for smaller amounts, but less so for large sums without a trusted third party.

[jacob29]

On 12/2/2023 at 10:18 PM, Gottfrid said:

If you do t that way. No tax will fall on you. Same I have done lately. All my money goes to a Cambodian account. After that a card attached. Unlimited spending and works in Thai ATMs

 

It's a bit early to jump to that conclusion. Malaysia has similar rules to what Thailand introduced, and they explicitly include all electronic forms, including ATM/debit card payments.

 

Enforcement is another matter, the trouble being that this can be enforced years after the fact.

[Gottfrid]

27 minutes ago, jacob29 said:

It's a bit early to jump to that conclusion. Malaysia has similar rules to what Thailand introduced, and they explicitly include all electronic forms, including ATM/debit card payments.

 

Enforcement is another matter, the trouble being that this can be enforced years after the fact.

Yes, they probably include all the credit and debit cards that are issued in the country. The other ones they will not be able to control.

[jacob29]

1 hour ago, Gottfrid said:

Yes, they probably include all the credit and debit cards that are issued in the country. The other ones they will not be able to control.

I agree there may be enforcement road blocks, but Malaysia has been pretty clear on this. They state cards with foreign financing are included, which seems implied that the card itself is foreign.

 

https://www.ccs-co.com/post/received-in-malaysia

 

Credit card transactions over $10k are almost certainly already tracked under existing rules, the framework is in place. It doesn't seem like a stretch to provide a financial year summary for combined transactions above a threshold, it's more a question of whether they will bother - not that they can't do it.

Edited January 18 by jacob29

[Gottfrid]

28 minutes ago, jacob29 said:

They state cards with foreign financing are included, which seems implied that the card itself is foreign.

Yes, or it means domestic cards that have transactions from a foreign country.

[jacob29]

2 hours ago, Gottfrid said:

Yes, or it means domestic cards that have transactions from a foreign country.

Seems like wishful thinking. I doubt credit cards can even be paid off directly with a cross border or wire transfer. If they could - it's implied that transfer (to a domestic card) is taxable already, since it has to happen in local currency.

[Mike Lister]

A gentle reminder that any posts describing ways to evade Thai tax, will be removed. even the round about indirect ways. I appreciate your help with this. 

[acepredator]

On 1/9/2024 at 4:14 PM, TPDH said:

As a Thai tax resident, do you pay income tax on foreign sourced income even if you never transfer that money into Thailand? My home country in Europe taxes worldwide income no matter if it's remitted to my country or not. But not sure about Thailand. 

 

Example: If you are a Thai tax resident in 2024 and let's say you earn $100K in stock profits in the US stock market during 2024. If you never remit any of those profits into Thailand, do you still need to pay any tax on those capital gains? 

 

Of course you wouldn't have to pay taxes on capital gains accrued in the U.S. How could the Thai government possibly know if someone living here had capital gains that never left the U.S.? Even if someone were stupid enough to inform the Thai tax authorities, they would still have no authority to tax money that never entered Thailand. How could they? On the other hand, presumably they could tax any money entering Thailand no matter what the source of that money was. That is the issue that the foreigners living here are very much concerned about these days.

[treetops]

9 hours ago, acepredator said:

How could the Thai government possibly know if someone living here had capital gains that never left the U.S.

 

That information is probably contained in the Common Reporting Standard that both nations have signed up to so of course the Thai government will know.  Whether they do anything about it is another matter.

[acepredator]

4 hours ago, treetops said:

 

That information is probably contained in the Common Reporting Standard that both nations have signed up to so of course the Thai government will know.  Whether they do anything about it is another matter.

Prior to your post, I had never heard of the Common Reporting Standard. I'll look into it and get back to you.