I think I found a solution to this tax nonsense

[Mike Lister]

11 hours ago, Celsius said:

 

Name 1 country that audits your credit card for buying groceries.

 

You guys are a barrel of laffz

Just thinking through this some more:

 

It's not that a credit card would be interrogated for buying groceries but they might be for continuous levels of spending in a second country, in a different currency. Years ago I used an HSBC UK Mastercard to pay my bills in Hong Kong, it was easy and convenient plus my employer settled my bills from the UK as part of my expenses and per diem. Somewhere around the six month mark, my HSBC chappie called me and asked me if I had moved to live in HK because they could see that all my transactions were generated there. I said no, I'm on secondment, nevertheless I had to go through their interrogation about my UK assets and links to the UK vs HK.

 

The message here is that the banks and card companies do watch these things so any work around is likely to be short lived.

[jerrymahoney]

All this talk of international banks sharing info with the Thai government is very Hi-tech. Something like this would be very Low-tech:

 

To: Director, Thailand Immigration
From: Director, Thailand Revenue Department

 

Dear Sir/Madam:

 

We call to your attention to the practice of certain Immigration offices accepting payments via agent intermediaries to waive bank deposit requirements for one-year extensions of stay. This practice aids and abets such aliens in evasion of income remittances that might otherwise be subject to tax.

 

We request your full attention to this matter; if not, Thailand Revenue Department may request a list of all those expats who have been granted one-year extensions of stay without providing evidence of Thai deposits as specified in your current RTP Police Order No.654/2564 2.22

[Celsius]

1 hour ago, Ralf001 said:

 

How ?

 

 

I really  meant file a joint tax return as a married couple.

 

[Ralf001]

1 minute ago, Celsius said:

 

I really  meant file a joint tax return as a married couple.

 

 

Spouse is required to fill in TIN box, not sure how this is your "solution".

 

 

 

[Celsius]

1 minute ago, Ralf001 said:

 

Spouse is required to fill in TIN box, not sure how this is your "solution".

 

 

 

 

Ok. I (or rather she) will fill it in. CHECK BOX 3

 

Zero income, which would be true in any other country where you use your savings to live off.

 

My major issue in Thailand was filling a tax return. But since my wife works and has been filing for the past 20 years, she can just put me in as a dependent. That way revenue department does not have to wonder how Cheap Charlie like myself survives in Thailand.

 

So my situation in Thailand would not change. 

 

No tax return to file.

 

No income to declare. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Celsius said:

 

Ok. I (or rather she) will fill it in. CHECK BOX 3

 

Zero income, which would be true in any other country where you use your savings to live off.

 

My major issue in Thailand was filling a tax return. But since my wife works and has been filing for the past 20 years, she can just put me in as a dependent. That way revenue department does not have to wonder how Cheap Charlie like myself survives in Thailand.

 

So my situation in Thailand would not change. 

 

No tax return to file.

 

No income to declare. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you over 65? If so, I don't think you will be able to claim the 190k deduction if you file jointly.

[Celsius]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

Are you over 65? If so, I don't think you will be able to claim the 190k deduction if you file jointly.

 

I was just guessing about deductions. If no deductions that is fine.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Celsius said:

 

I was just guessing about deductions. If no deductions that is fine.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't mean to rain on your parade and you probably already know this, but let me just state the obvious for anyone else who may be reading. Filing a joint return and not reporting your own income, if you have any, means the tax return is fraudulent and that you are avoiding tax. And because it's a joint return, your wife is also involved in that. Chances are you could get away with it for the next 25 years and there wouldn't be a problem......but!

[blackcab]

12 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I agree that Thailand is not taxing worldwide income. However, there is little difference between transferring cash from say the UK to Thailand and having to declare that cash as assessable income, and buying things on a credit card in Thailand using money from the UK and then paying the bill from here in Thailand. In both cases, the funds originate from overseas, and are spent here in Thailand.

 

I do see where you are coming from, however there is currently no effective way to tax money spent on a foreign credit card in Thailand. Even if this was the case there are way too many ways to legally avoid any such tax.

 

For example, what happens if you visit Laos for an hour and pay your credit card while you are there? Or what about if you pay your credit card while you are on a boat 13 miles offshore? What if you pay your credit card while you visit a foreign embassy in Thailand while you are queuing up to get a visa application form?

 

What about if you pre-load your credit card when you are not in Thailand and then spend the pre-loaded money in Thailand? There is no bill to pay. What if a trusted person had access to some of your funds in the UK and paid the bill for you? What if the trusted person paid the bill with their money, and then you repaid them at a later date? What if you repaid them in the next tax year?

 

What if you had a direct debit set up with your UK bank to automatically pay your credit card in full each month? What if you were a supplementary card holder on someone else's account and they paid the bill for you?

 

In none of these cases would you be paying the bill in Thailand. There are so many holes in this that it would be a nightmare to implement even if this spending was considered income in Thailand.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, blackcab said:

 

I do see where you are coming from, however there is currently no effective way to tax money spent on a foreign credit card in Thailand. Even if this was the case there are way too many ways to legally avoid any such tax.

 

For example, what happens if you visit Laos for an hour and pay your credit card while you are there? Or what about if you pay your credit card while you are on a boat 13 miles offshore? What if you pay your credit card while you visit a foreign embassy in Thailand while you are queuing up to get a visa application form?

 

What about if you pre-load your credit card when you are not in Thailand and then spend the pre-loaded money in Thailand? There is no bill to pay. What if a trusted person had access to some of your funds in the UK and paid the bill for you? What if the trusted person paid the bill with their money, and then you repaid them at a later date? What if you repaid them in the next tax year?

 

What if you had a direct debit set up with your UK bank to automatically pay your credit card in full each month? What if you were a supplementary card holder on someone else's account and they paid the bill for you?

 

In none of these cases would you be paying the bill in Thailand. There are so many holes in this that it would be a nightmare to implement even if this spending was considered income in Thailand.

Sure, there are always going to be work arounds and not everyone is capable of being caught. But I don't think ay RD is interested in casual users who visit here and there from time to time and use a CC. I think they are more interested in sustained use over time. I posted earlier, somewhere, about HSBC UK who called me because of sustained use of my UK credit card in Hong Kong in the 90's, they wanted to know if I'd moved to live there so I had to give them chapter and verse about my secondment and my UK assets, and this was long before Know Your Customer was introduced.

[blackcab]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

I think they are more interested in sustained use over time.

 

My previous post was about non-Thai citizens who are tax resident in Thailand, ie those in Thailand over 180 days. Can you see how in all of the legal loopholes I mentioned nobody pays the bill in Thailand.

 

You previously said:

  

15 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

This is because it's where the bill is paid from that's the key issue.

 

In all of the examples I gave in the previous post the credit card bill wouldn't be paid in Thailand. So would there be any income tax liability the the money spent on the credit card using the examples I gave in the post above?

[jerrymahoney]

My question given all these workarounds: What is the basis of your 180+ days per year stay with Immigration, or is it just assumed all these workarounders are using the services on an agent.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, blackcab said:

 

My previous post was about non-Thai citizens who are tax resident in Thailand, ie those in Thailand over 180 days. Can you see how in all of the legal loopholes I mentioned nobody pays the bill in Thailand.

 

You previously said:

  

 

In all of the examples I gave in the previous post the credit card bill wouldn't be paid in Thailand. So would there be any income tax liability the the money spent on the credit card using the examples I gave in the post above?

 

I don't have all the answers on this, I only know that HMRC has managed to find a way to crack down on this loophole with non-doms and if you were HMRC you'd do the same. How they do it or what the mechanism is, I don't know. I also know that no system is foolproof and it is almost certainly possible to devise a mechanism that works, as long as everything works smoothly and to plan. But one thing that does strike me from your examples is that people would have to keep a fair amount of money in a UK account and also set up a reliable process to make sure their spending habits weren't detected. That may be fine for younger guys but it seems unlikely that the average pensioner is going to have that much spare cash, nor that they want to manage a system of that nature. Older guys want reliability, security, the comfort of knowing there wont be a letter in the mail or knock on the door that threatens their retirement in Thailand and/or, creates lots of hassle with their UK finances and relationships. I wish I knew more about the Visa/Mastercard settlement process but as said, it touches on all the banks and the Central Banks hence plugging this loophole is not impossible. As also said earlier, HSBC, at a minimum, has been watching card spending habits for a very long time and when they see something unusual, they will ask questions.

[foreverlomsak]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

As also said earlier, HSBC, at a minimum, has been watching card spending habits for a very long time and when they see something unusual, they will ask questions.

Before moving here (nearly 20 years ago) I used to spend 2-3 holidays (of 2-3 weeks duration) a year in Thailand and was questioned by both my banks regarding credit card expenditure in Thailand, and both of them suspended the account until I could satisfy them regarding where I lived.

[Mike Lister]

In Thailand, banks are the agents of BOT and they enforce and execute BOT policy. In the UK, for example, it's likely to be similar but they may also enforce HMRC rules as well. It's a joined up world.

[eisfeld]

1 hour ago, blackcab said:

 

I do see where you are coming from, however there is currently no effective way to tax money spent on a foreign credit card in Thailand. Even if this was the case there are way too many ways to legally avoid any such tax.

 

For example, what happens if you visit Laos for an hour and pay your credit card while you are there? Or what about if you pay your credit card while you are on a boat 13 miles offshore? What if you pay your credit card while you visit a foreign embassy in Thailand while you are queuing up to get a visa application form?

 

What about if you pre-load your credit card when you are not in Thailand and then spend the pre-loaded money in Thailand? There is no bill to pay. What if a trusted person had access to some of your funds in the UK and paid the bill for you? What if the trusted person paid the bill with their money, and then you repaid them at a later date? What if you repaid them in the next tax year?

 

What if you had a direct debit set up with your UK bank to automatically pay your credit card in full each month? What if you were a supplementary card holder on someone else's account and they paid the bill for you?

 

In none of these cases would you be paying the bill in Thailand. There are so many holes in this that it would be a nightmare to implement even if this spending was considered income in Thailand.

 

I believe there is a misunderstanding here. It does not matter where you physically are when the credit card is paid off. What matters are two things: 1. that you are a tax resident in Thailand (180 days in the country) and 2. that you transfer earned funds into Thailand.

 

You see, your physical location at the time of transfer plays no role when trying to meet those two requirements. Also paying off a foreign credit card is not even transfering money into Thailand, it is transfering money to the foreign card issuer.

 

Now, when you pay someone in Thailand or withdrawing cash with the card then you are actually transfering money into Thailand. Again, it doesn't matter if you are even in Thailand at that moment. All that matters is that you are transfering earned funds into the country.

 

That being said, I doubt they'll be checking card transactions in the near future. If they are actually going to enforce it as announced then they will start with wire transfers first. Also they wont be taxing all incoming transfers. What will happen is that they will make people prove that the funds were either savings from before, or already taxed or count as assessable income that will be taxed.

[Dante99]

16 hours ago, Celsius said:

 

What revenue department has the authority to audit your credit card bill from another country.

 

Master Card woould just laff at them and tell them to FO

So it is your infinite wisdom that Master Card and other credit card companies are not monitored for money laundering use like other foreign transaction processors?  Really you need to reconsider your infinite wisdom and try some common sense.

[Celsius]

5 minutes ago, Dante99 said:

So it is your infinite wisdom that Master Card and other credit card companies are not monitored for money laundering use like other foreign transaction processors?  Really you need to reconsider your infinite wisdom and try some common sense.

 

Speaking of your infinite wisdom, I am sure the Master Card will be carefully monitoring my purchases from Villa Market and Tetco Lotut. 

 

Yes. Common sense.

 

Try again to make a point.

[spidermike007]

Just have funds wired to the wife's account. And bring in lots of cash whenever you can. Problem solved. 

[jphasia]

Sorry to pop up here but I have seen several posts on this topic about taxable incomes to Thailand but i can't find the details:

Is it official?

Who are concerned?

Based on what?

I am French, not working in Thailand. On retirement extension. 

I am actually working in Vietnam, having a local contract, paid in USD in a local bank account. My Vietnam taxes are paid by my employer. 

Even if i am back to Thailand very often (basically 2 weeks in VN, 1 week in Thailand), i doubt it's make 180 days in Thailand.

I transfer money from my Vietnam account to my Thai bank accounts regularly ( basically on monthly basis) as I have no intention to stay in Vietnam forever.

I have Credit Cards issued in Vietnam and Thailand. 

Am I concerned about that?

What would be the rate of this tax, when it is effective and is it retroactive?

 

[jerrymahoney]

30 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Just have funds wired to the wife's account. And bring in lots of cash whenever you can. Problem solved. 

How do you handle your retirement extension?

 

It may turn out the the Revenue folks will be interested in those who have paid a fee to Immigration via an agent rather than have the required Thai Bangkok account with 800K/65K per month in it which may be subject to income tax provisions.

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[sometimewoodworker]

25 minutes ago, jphasia said:

Is it official?

Not yet, it is a proposal.

25 minutes ago, jphasia said:

What would be the rate of this tax,

Its a proposal so can change before implementation, if it ever is implemented.

25 minutes ago, jphasia said:

when it is effective and is it retroactive?

The proposal is for anything considered income, this includes capital gains, dividends, pensions, rents etc and the date is calendar 2024, and no, at the moment there is no suggestion that it will cover anything prior to calendar 2024.

 

• Any assets sold in a tax year, which are at a loss, cannot be used to offset a gain achieved by selling an asset with a gain in that tax year
•  

many countries have dual taxation agreements with Thailand however exactly what is covered is different for each country since they are bilateral treaties.

 

However (and this is my guess so certainly may be wrong) if implemented later than January 1st 2024 it WILL cover anything from calendar 2024.

 

This is why I, and anyone who believes that it may (or will) be enforced, is crystallising my current capital gains by “bed and breakfasting”. If the term is unfamiliar a little research will assist. This is producing a nice revenue bump for investment advisors specialising in long term Thai clients.

Edited December 10, 2023 by sometimewoodworker

[jphasia]

6 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Not yet, it is a proposal.

Its a proposal so can change before implementation, if it ever is implemented.

The proposal is for anything considered income, this includes capital gains, dividends, pensions, rents etc and the date is calendar 2024, and no, at the moment there is no suggestion that it will cover anything prior to calendar 2024.

 

• Any assets sold in a tax year, which are at a loss, cannot be used to offset a gain achieved by selling an asset with a gain in that tax year

 

However (and this is my guess so certainly may be wrong) if implemented later than January 1st 2024 it WILL cover anything from calendar 2024.

 

This is why I, and anyone who believes that it may (or will) be enforced, is crystallising my current capital gains by “bed and breakfasting”. If the term is unfamiliar a little research will assist. This is producing a nice revenue bump for investment advisors specialising in long term Thai clients.

Thanks, your reply is very clear and answered my questions.

Yes, i checked google about the "bed and breakfasting" and know i understand it.

Officially, I have zero asset in Thailand. I have a house but it is under my son name ( he is both Thai and French), F&B businesses but 100% under my girlfriend (Thai) name (live together for 18 years but not marry). Even cars, motorbike... are under her name.

The only things I have under my name are several bank accounts and several Thai Credit Cards.

[sometimewoodworker]

8 minutes ago, jphasia said:

Thanks, your reply is very clear and answered my questions.

Yes, i checked google about the "bed and breakfasting" and know i understand it.

Officially, I have zero asset in Thailand. I have a house but it is under my son name ( he is both Thai and French), F&B businesses but 100% under my girlfriend (Thai) name (live together for 18 years but not marry). Even cars, motorbike... are under her name.

The only things I have under my name are several bank accounts and several Thai Credit Cards.

That you have no assets in Thailand is irrelevant. It is proposed that any income brought into Thailand will be taxable.

 

I have no assets that provide income in Thailand, however I bring in enough money annually that I could be taxed. There are ways through careful planning to reduce, or possibly eliminate, taxable income to under the tax threshold.

Edited December 10, 2023 by sometimewoodworker

[noobexpat]

Been divorced 3 times, right?

Maybe have a  plan B

[spidermike007]

1 hour ago, jerrymahoney said:

How do you handle your retirement extension?

 

It may turn out the the Revenue folks will be interested in those who have paid a fee to Immigration via an agent rather than have the required Thai Bangkok account with 800K/65K per month in it which may be subject to income tax provisions.

 

I highly doubt that, that is a very lucrative franchise for the immigration folks, they collect their fees without having to do any of the work. I think they're much more focused on money and amassing a fortune, than they are on the laws. 

[jerrymahoney]

23 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

I highly doubt that, that is a very lucrative franchise for the immigration folks, they collect their fees without having to do any of the work. I think they're much more focused on money and amassing a fortune, than they are on the laws. 

It isn't Immigration. It is the Revenue folks who might look askance on the practice of alleviating the need to have a Thai Bank with what would otherwise be taxable income.

 

And like the IRS in US, I  will guess they have rather broad subpoena powers if they think the there is some malfeasance going on by giving extensions of stay with out the requisite financial deposits as  in the IMM's own Police Orders.

 

And the key to bringing in unreported cash, ATM withdrawals and other ways to bring unreported money  into Thailand is not to have a bank account as would otherwise be required for extensions of stay.

Edited December 10, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[CharlieKo]

4 hours ago, Celsius said:

My major issue in Thailand was filling a tax return. But since my wife works and has been filing for the past 20 years, she can just put me in as a dependent. That way revenue department does not have to wonder how Cheap Charlie like myself survives in Thailand.

Just an observation! If you are on a Non O for marriage visa. You have to give a reason for your stay in Thailand. Which normally would be to support Thai wife and family. But you want it to look as if your wife supports you?

 

Somehow I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill! Why don't you just wait and see what happens with the new tax rules. I really doubt they are interested in cheap Charlies. Especially when they are many thais who should pay tax but don't.

[spidermike007]

3 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

It isn't Immigration. It is the Revenue folks who might look askance on the practice of alleviating the need to have a Thai Bank with what would otherwise be taxable income.

 

And like the IRS in US, I  will guess they have rather broad subpoena powers if they think the there is some malfeasance going on by giving extensions of stay with out the requisite financial deposits as  in the IMM's own Police Orders.

 

And the key to bringing in unreported cash, ATM withdrawals and other ways to bring unreported money  into Thailand is not to have a bank account as would otherwise be required for extensions of stay.

 

I hear what you're saying, and in theory what you're saying makes total sense. However, what you are hinting towards is a total crackdown on the levels of corruption that exists within Thai society at the core. Which means immigration, customs, the police and other government officials.

 

I don't see that ever happening at least in our  lifetime, and the bottom line is we really don't know how this is going to shake out, so at this point in time I am not assuming the worst, I am assuming a lack of efficiency, I am assuming a lack of organization, I am assuming a lack of budget, and all the other things that I've seen in the dozen plus years that I've been here. 

[jerrymahoney]

26 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

I hear what you're saying, and in theory what you're saying makes total sense. However, what you are hinting towards is a total crackdown on the levels of corruption that exists within Thai society at the core. Which means immigration, customs, the police and other government officials.

No much simpler.

 

What is being suggested in this and other topics is, if you get all your imported funds via untraceable ATM, Credit card etc. and use an agent to get your extension-of-stay without providing the type of foreign bank deposit info as described in the current Police Order, you will be under the radar to Thailand Revenue.

 

Maybe.

 

But you could also look at it this way:

 

Every time Immigration issues an extension of stay without requiring the 800K type bank deposit as in the IMM Police Order, Thailand Revenue loses the ability to make a tax claim against that non-existent account.

Edited December 10, 2023 by jerrymahoney