typical retiree (foreign home) situation

[Expat68]

1 hour ago, noobexpat said:

 

Seems £ modest. Bungalows are usually in very high demand.

 

 

Houses/rental are cheap on north Yorkshire coast

[brianthainess]

1 hour ago, ningnong said:

A few years ago the change to the O-A visa happened requiring proof of health insurance for new O-A visas and O-A extensions of stay. Can you say with absolute certainty the it will never be made a requirement for standard Non-O visas too? I'd give it 50-50 odds of happening some day as health care costs continue to rise rapidly.

Many here can not even get health insurance becoz of their age, retired or married, I'd give that a 99% not going to happen. You are just fear mongering.

[jaxon]

3 hours ago, noobexpat said:

 

About 2000 to 2022. First house tripled in 2 years, next house about 80% growth. Big long slump in the middle for prices during GFC.

 

Was mortgage free by age 35 and no need to work full time anymore.

 

Was in north west UK.

 

The good old days of the UK housing market !  What's GFC ?  

[jaxon]

4 hours ago, Expat68 said:

My 2 bedroom bungalow rents for £600 in the UK, in a very nice area on the N. Yorkshire coast.

 

Is that per week (AirBnB) or month (rental)?  

[jaxon]

1 hour ago, brianthainess said:

Many here can not even get health insurance becoz of their age, retired or married, I'd give that a 99% not going to happen. You are just fear mongering.

 

On the UK Thai Embassy website all of the long term visas seemed to have some health insurance requirement? Maybe it's a post Covid thing. What "age" are you suggesting when talking about too old to get insurance.  I suppose that's a thing at some point. 

 

[jaxon]

5 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

1.  Being a non-resident for taxes is something that the ATO determines - not yourself.  Remember this - if you are 'caught' (and audited) the ATO will go back many years - and they get access to all your records (all of them).  Their fines and penalties can be severe. I knew an Expat (Graham) who was doing the same as you for years - he got caught (maybe dobbed in) and he was forced to return to Aust and he is still paying off his debts to ATO. I know abou

2. Any money you remit into Thailand from rental of a property overseas is taxable income from 1 Jan 2024.  There are many forms of taxable income earned overseas and tax is payable when that money is remitted into Thailand. In the past it was not taxable in Thailand if you kept it in a bank account until the following year and then remitted it into Thailand - that loophole is what the Thai RD is now closing from 1 Jan 2024. The Thai RD penalties and fines are more than in Australia - a lot more - and could easily result in deportation and blacklisting after you have paid the money owed (while residing in a Thai detention facility). 

 

What will the tax rate be on foreign rental income ? Any allowances ?  That must impact many expats. 

[Expat68]

8 minutes ago, jaxon said:

 

Is that per week (AirBnB) or month (rental)?  

Monthly rental, I live in a cheap but one of the most beautiful areas to live in the uk. Wages are low hence rental is low

[noobexpat]

1 hour ago, jaxon said:

 

The good old days of the UK housing market !  What's GFC ?  

 

Indeed!

Global financial crisis in 2007.

[ningnong]

2 hours ago, brianthainess said:

Many here can not even get health insurance becoz of their age, retired or married, I'd give that a 99% not going to happen. You are just fear mongering.

I agree that many here wouldn't have a chance to get health insurance because of their age. Do you expect the Thais to pick up the bill for a bunch of very old uninsured foreigners in their final years of usually very high medical expenses?

 

You call it fear mongering I call it being realistic and only posted so folks might think twice about burning their bridges back home.

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, ningnong said:

I agree that many here wouldn't have a chance to get health insurance because of their age. Do you expect the Thais to pick up the bill for a bunch of very old uninsured foreigners in their final years of usually very high medical expenses?

 

You call it fear mongering I call it being realistic and only posted so folks might think twice about burning their bridges back home.

I would not expect Thai's to pick up the medical bills for old people like myself. But I might have expected the health insurance industry in Thailand to operate in a similar fashion to the way it works elsewhere in the world and not to so heavily favor the insurance company and be so heavily weighted against their customers. 

[brianthainess]

12 hours ago, ningnong said:

I agree that many here wouldn't have a chance to get health insurance because of their age. Do you expect the Thais to pick up the bill for a bunch of very old uninsured foreigners in their final years of usually very high medical expenses?

 

You call it fear mongering I call it being realistic and only posted so folks might think twice about burning their bridges back home.

Don't be stupid of course not, I am self insured, as many of us "Old" ones are, If 3m baht don't cover me in a public hospital then it's all over red rover anyway, time to roll over. I have that, guess why. 

I SOLD MY HOUSE BACK HOME.

[brianthainess]

13 hours ago, jaxon said:

 

On the UK Thai Embassy website all of the long term visas seemed to have some health insurance requirement? Maybe it's a post Covid thing. What "age" are you suggesting when talking about too old to get insurance.  I suppose that's a thing at some point. 

 

We are not in the UK we live here, no insurance is required.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

16 hours ago, jaxon said:

 

What will the tax rate be on foreign rental income ? Any allowances ?  That must impact many expats. 

In Australia - it varies from country to country.

 

The tax rate for non-residents is as below - there is no tax free threshold - so it starts at $1.

Foreign resident tax rates 2023–24

Taxable income (note that any Govt Pension is included in this total - it is not taxed, but it is added to the total):

0 – $120,000                     32.5c for each $1

$120,001 – $180,000       $39,000 plus 37c for each $1 over $120,000

$180,001 and over           $61,200 plus 45c for each $1 over $180,000

Tax rates – foreign resident | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)

 

The allowances are as per normal - costs and expenses etc.

 

This impacts people when an Aussie receiving rent from Australia is living overseas and becomes a non-resident for Tax purposes.

Are you a non-resident for tax purposes according to ATO?

Questions | Determination of residency status – leaving Australia (ato.gov.au)

(Note - if you INTEND to live overseas and return within 2 years and do not live in a property you own overseas = tax resident).

 

[ningnong]

3 hours ago, brianthainess said:

Don't be stupid of course not, I am self insured, as many of us "Old" ones are, If 3m baht don't cover me in a public hospital then it's all over red rover anyway, time to roll over. I have that, guess why. 

I SOLD MY HOUSE BACK HOME.

The government won't be concerned with the many old retirees that are insured or self insured their concern will be with the many without insurance and the drain on the economy. We would be naive to believe that mandatory insurance for all ex-pats with non-immigrant visas isn't already on the table for consideration.
 
In your particular case what happens if you need to draw down that self insurance of 3m baht over the course of one or more health events? You will no longer be self insured or insurable. Then what?

[BritManToo]

16 minutes ago, ningnong said:

draw down that self insurance of 3m baht over the course of one or more health events? You will no longer be self insured or insurable. Then what?

Old people die all the time.

 

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, ningnong said:

The government won't be concerned with the many old retirees that are insured or self insured their concern will be with the many without insurance and the drain on the economy. We would be naive to believe that mandatory insurance for all ex-pats with non-immigrant visas isn't already on the table for consideration.
 
In your particular case what happens if you need to draw down that self insurance of 3m baht over the course of one or more health events? You will no longer be self insured or insurable. Then what?

There is no evidence that I've ever come across to even remotely suggest that older expats who reside here are a drain on the economy or leave unpaid hospital bills. There is however plenty of evidence to confirm that workers from neighbouring countries who are insured, are a massive drain, particularly in Phuket. There have been various news articles on this subject over many years, the problem is that the government can't do much to enforce health insurance on manual labourers from Myanmar and Cambodia and Laos, On the one hand they need the labour, on the other, those workers can't afford insurance. Hence the target has always been, more wealthy western expats, none of whom are the problem.

 

The other point to make here is that 3 mill. is a lot of money to spend on medical care here, unless a person wants to be treated exclusively in the private hospitals. I've very recently had an operation which I costed at different institutions. The cost at a large well known hospital chain was 300k, at the private arm of the university hospital it was 170k, at the main university hospital it would have cost 75k and at the government District hospital the cost would have been around 24k but with a wait and no choice of surgeon. So yes, 3 mill is not much at a [private hospital but that cost can be reduced easily.

[brianthainess]

8 minutes ago, ningnong said:

 
In your particular case what happens if you need to draw down that self insurance of 3m baht over the course of one or more health events? You will no longer be self insured or insurable. Then what?

I think I'd be dead by then if 3m  at govt hospital didn't cover me. I also have more resources here but as said I'd be dead by then, on going cancer treatment would be the only thing to go beyond that limit, and at 72yo I don't think I'd want to continue with that, there would be no quality of life IMO. 

Keep trying though to dismiss my posts. 

[noobexpat]

27 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

I think I'd be dead by then if 3m  at govt hospital didn't cover me. I also have more resources here but as said I'd be dead by then, on going cancer treatment would be the only thing to go beyond that limit, and at 72yo I don't think I'd want to continue with that, there would be no quality of life IMO. 

Keep trying though to dismiss my posts. 

 

Best to ignore some of these fools. There are many here.

The 'what if' gang.

 

[fceligoj]

When I decided to move 'full time' to Thailand (about 12 years ago), I sold my condominium, cars, furniture, etc.  My home country address is my sister's home and has been for the total time.  I continue to have my bank accounts, credit cards, and those other items tied to other financial resources.  My retirement (pensions) income goes into my one bank account (therefore I do not have to establish whether or not I am alive to my government.)  I pay my taxes, etc.  I have automatic payment for those domestic credit cards in my home country that I use outside of Thailand.  I use a VPN on those accounts that require a domestic location and other than that, all is good. 

 

I transfer the required funds to my Thai Bank account for my extensions and also transfer additional funds to my wife's bank account.  I also have a real Thai credit card with Bangkok Bank (actually it is a joint account with my wife being the primary account holder.)  She has an excellent credit rating, which was necessary to buy a home and purchase cars using a auto loan (have no need to have any assets in Thailand other than the minimal funds necessary to meet the extension requirements.  She aso has several other credit cards.

 

So, why should I own any asset in my home country when I can rent a car, stay with relatives, and travel in my home country to show my wife life there and other attractions.

[GinBoy2]

On 12/11/2023 at 5:03 AM, Mike Lister said:

I would not expect Thai's to pick up the medical bills for old people like myself. But I might have expected the health insurance industry in Thailand to operate in a similar fashion to the way it works elsewhere in the world and not to so heavily favor the insurance company and be so heavily weighted against their customers. 

Actually the Thai insurance system works exactly like a insurance system should work.

 

Risk be it health, home or auto insurance is based an actuary tables and in the case of health, surprise surprise your risk increases exponentially 65+

 

Health insurance in the West, even in the US with medicare isn't a real insurance system, it's a subsidized system as a safety net for older folks.

 

A more realistic comparison would be travel insurance.

 

Try getting travel insurance for anyone 70+.

 

'If' you can get someone to underwrite it, the policy will be astronomically expensive.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, GinBoy2 said:

Actually the Thai insurance system works exactly like a insurance system should work.

 

Risk be it health, home or auto insurance is based an actuary tables and in the case of health, surprise surprise your risk increases exponentially 65+

 

Health insurance in the West, even in the US with medicare isn't a real insurance system, it's a subsidized system as a safety net for older folks.

 

A more realistic comparison would be travel insurance.

 

Try getting travel insurance for anyone 70+.

 

'If' you can get someone to underwrite it, the policy will be astronomically expensive.

 

 

I cannot disagree more! Car insurance for example operates a no-claims bonus system that is based on the vehicle rather than on the driver. The longer the vehicle isn't involved in an accident and there's no claim, the longer the no claims policy remains in place. BUT, if the driver changes his vehicle, the no claims bonus is voided and because the vehicle is new, no-claims has to start from scratch once again. No other country in the world operates a system like that.

 

House insurance insures against storm damage, UNLESS the storm was announced in advance by the weather office.....say what!

 

Health insurers can cancel their policies for any reason they want, you're too old, you've claimed too much, we don't like you. You've claimed so we're going o increase the cost of your policy by 25% because we want our money back! Western insurers group similarly aged people into pools and increase premiums according to the profile of claims made by that pool, bot based on what an individual has claimed.

 

 

[BTB1977]

I sold everything.  Put it into a retirement fund. Makes between 5 to 6 percent.  And will be there if I ever have to purchase again. And the day will come when I say I'm not going back and I can draw from it. 

[ningnong]

On 12/12/2023 at 11:08 AM, Mike Lister said:

There is no evidence that I've ever come across to even remotely suggest that older expats who reside here are a drain on the economy or leave unpaid hospital bills. There is however plenty of evidence to confirm that workers from neighbouring countries who are insured, are a massive drain, particularly in Phuket. There have been various news articles on this subject over many years, the problem is that the government can't do much to enforce health insurance on manual labourers from Myanmar and Cambodia and Laos, On the one hand they need the labour, on the other, those workers can't afford insurance. Hence the target has always been, more wealthy western expats, none of whom are the problem.

 

The other point to make here is that 3 mill. is a lot of money to spend on medical care here, unless a person wants to be treated exclusively in the private hospitals. I've very recently had an operation which I costed at different institutions. The cost at a large well known hospital chain was 300k, at the private arm of the university hospital it was 170k, at the main university hospital it would have cost 75k and at the government District hospital the cost would have been around 24k but with a wait and no choice of surgeon. So yes, 3 mill is not much at a [private hospital but that cost can be reduced easily.

I appreciate the points you made and taking the time to clearly state your point of view.

 

I wonder if those foreign laborers don't just get sent home if they require extensive medical treatment. Most are just a few hours from the border by road. But I don't want to stray to far off topic here.

 

I was on the O-A visa when the change was made requiring health insurance. I remember all to well the ongoing discussions here at ThaiVisa regarding whether or not it would apply to renewing extensions of stay for those of us already on O-A visas for a number of years. By far the majority argued it would not apply to us already on O-A which in fact it ultimately did.

 

I let my O-A expire and went through the process of getting a Non-O even though I have health insurance here however I'm not sure it will be available or affordable to me in the future and I would be compelled to leave Thailand if insurance becomes a requirement. I felt with a Non-O that maybe there's a chance of a grandfather clause if there ever is an insurance requirement.

 

But the O-A change was an eye opener and when I have weighed pros and cons of selling my home in the West this was one of the main reasons not to sell, a future here is uncertain. The house is paid for, in a unique location and easily rented so it wasn't a hard decision to come to keeping the house.

 

You stated "There is no evidence that I've ever come across to even remotely suggest that older expats who reside here are a drain on the economy or leave unpaid hospital bills."

 

I don't disagree with that but the fact remains that an insurance requirement has been made for at least a couple of non-immigrant visa classes, O-A and O-X, maybe others I don't know. The government clearly decided a need just how far they will go remains to be seen. Additionally Thailand might be in for a lot more economic refugees from the West who are on fixed incomes that can no longer afford to live back home. Many of these will have no insurance.

 

This post will likely get ridiculed but I think the ones that ridicule it are the ones that have burned their bridges and are second guessing their decisions.

[BritManToo]

3 minutes ago, ningnong said:

But the O-A change was an eye opener and when I have weighed pros and cons of selling my home in the West this was one of the main reasons not to sell, a future here is uncertain. The house is paid for, in a unique location and easily rented so it wasn't a hard decision to come to keeping the house.

No need to travel back to your home country, Cambodia and the Philippines are good, Vietnam is getting easier.

If I wasn't already in Thailand, I wouldn't be retiring here.

 

Never encountered anyone here on a O-A, all on Non-Os or Eds.

Edited December 13, 2023 by BritManToo

[Mike Lister]

20 hours ago, ningnong said:

I appreciate the points you made and taking the time to clearly state your point of view.

 

I wonder if those foreign laborers don't just get sent home if they require extensive medical treatment. Most are just a few hours from the border by road. But I don't want to stray to far off topic here.

 

I was on the O-A visa when the change was made requiring health insurance. I remember all to well the ongoing discussions here at ThaiVisa regarding whether or not it would apply to renewing extensions of stay for those of us already on O-A visas for a number of years. By far the majority argued it would not apply to us already on O-A which in fact it ultimately did.

 

I let my O-A expire and went through the process of getting a Non-O even though I have health insurance here however I'm not sure it will be available or affordable to me in the future and I would be compelled to leave Thailand if insurance becomes a requirement. I felt with a Non-O that maybe there's a chance of a grandfather clause if there ever is an insurance requirement.

 

But the O-A change was an eye opener and when I have weighed pros and cons of selling my home in the West this was one of the main reasons not to sell, a future here is uncertain. The house is paid for, in a unique location and easily rented so it wasn't a hard decision to come to keeping the house.

 

You stated "There is no evidence that I've ever come across to even remotely suggest that older expats who reside here are a drain on the economy or leave unpaid hospital bills."

 

I don't disagree with that but the fact remains that an insurance requirement has been made for at least a couple of non-immigrant visa classes, O-A and O-X, maybe others I don't know. The government clearly decided a need just how far they will go remains to be seen. Additionally Thailand might be in for a lot more economic refugees from the West who are on fixed incomes that can no longer afford to live back home. Many of these will have no insurance.

 

This post will likely get ridiculed but I think the ones that ridicule it are the ones that have burned their bridges and are second guessing their decisions.

There is a big difference between a visa and an extension of stay. I initially acquired an OA visa but that expired after two years, for the past twenty years I have lived here on an extension of stay, I no longer have a visa for Thailand. Initially, the basis of my stay in Thailand was for retirement, a few years ago I changed that to marriage. If a requirement is introduced tomorrow to require all holders of OA visa's and all visa holders here by reason of retirement, to obtain health insurance, I remain unaffected. I'm pretty certain the system is designed to capture new visa holders, those coming through the gate today  rather than people who have been here for a while, it's a type of grandfathering system, which is exactly what they have done with visa fees in the past. 

 

That said, everyone should have health insurance. I used to until my Thai insurer was bought by another company who refused to renew my policy because they were exiting the single consumer market. Fortunately I have funds, I've just this moment paid my credit card bill, 171k for an operation in the university hospital, an amount that is very similar to what my insurance premium would have been, had the policy not been cancelled. 

 

[jaxon]

20 hours ago, ningnong said:

 

I was on the O-A visa when the change was made requiring health insurance. I remember all to well the ongoing discussions here at ThaiVisa regarding whether or not it would apply to renewing extensions of stay for those of us already on O-A visas for a number of years. By far the majority argued it would not apply to us already on O-A which in fact it ultimately did.

 

I let my O-A expire and went through the process of getting a Non-O even though I have health insurance here however I'm not sure it will be available or affordable to me in the future and I would be compelled to leave Thailand if insurance becomes a requirement. I felt with a Non-O that maybe there's a chance of a grandfather clause if there ever is an insurance requirement.

  

This post will likely get ridiculed but I think the ones that ridicule it are the ones that have burned their bridges and are second guessing their decisions.

 

Not at all. Great post.  Was the reason you wanted to change from OA to O because, at the time O did not require health insurance (and now it does)?   Is OA effectively being phased out by Thailand? 

[jaxon]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

There is a big difference between a visa and an extension of stay. I initially acquired an OA visa but that expired after two years, for the past twenty years I have lived here on an extension of stay, I no longer have a visa for Thailand. Initially, the basis of my stay in Thailand was for retirement, a few years ago I changed that to marriage. If a requirement is introduced tomorrow to require all holders of OA visa's and all visa holders here by reason of retirement, to obtain health insurance, I remain unaffected. I'm pretty certain the system is designed to capture new visa holders, those coming through the gate today  rather than people who have been here for a while, it's a type of grandfathering system, which is exactly what they have done with visa fees in the past. 

 

 

What's the basic criteria for changing an O / OA visa into an "extenstion of stay". My wife is Thai, not sure how that effects the situation (if at all).     

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, jaxon said:

 

What's the basic criteria for changing an O / OA visa into an "extenstion of stay". My wife is Thai, not sure how that effects the situation (if at all).     

Time. Every visa is valid for a defined period, one month three months or one year. When it expires you have two choices, get another visa or extend your stay on whatever basis you specified when you acquired your visa. If you no longer believe the initial basis is appropriate, change it to a new reason for stay. 

[jaxon]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Time. Every visa is valid for a defined period, one month three months or one year. When it expires you have two choices, get another visa or extend your stay on whatever basis you specified when you acquired your visa. If you no longer believe the initial basis is appropriate, change it to a new reason for stay. 

 

A rather opaque answer, Grasshopper. 

[Mike Lister]

Just now, jaxon said:

 

A rather opaque answer, Grasshopper. 

 

I don't know how else to explain it to you! When you reach the expiration date of your visa and you want to remain in Thailand, you can't renew your visa, you can either leave, buy a new one and then return, or, you can extend your stay in country based on the reason you stated when you acquired your initial visa. Once that visa expiration date is reached and you have acquired an extension of stay, you no longer have a visa. A visa is nothing more than permission to enter the country for a defined period of time, an extention of stay is permission to remain, after the expiration of that visa.

 

Are you getting there yet?.