The Children of Gaza = More than 7000 Killed.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

It appears my interpretation then was somewhat correct.

Could be true what you say, but it could be interpreted as you using similar logic to Hamas, i.e. due to a past event or events actions against civilians as a means to an end are justified.

I can see from whence you are coming but please take time to consider the reality of the casualties and whether one can be so flippant, as to the issue of the justification of killings of third parties, that you can stop the discussion with the word 'Next'. 

 

I don’t take your post seriously.

You are just playing games.

[simple1]

18 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I'm yet to hear what would have been a plausible alternative to 'the level of aggression'.

For a stater how about using solely guided munitions as opposed to 50%+ dumb bombs.

[Morch]

37 minutes ago, simple1 said:

For a stater how about using solely guided munitions as opposed to 50%+ dumb bombs.

 

Doubt they have enough of them, or that they fit for all purposes.

Given the risk of conflagration on other fronts, they would not let stocks go down bellow certain parameters.

 

Also, the usage of 'dumb' bombs (which is misleading, this ain't WWI or WWII stuff) would not necessarily be out of place in all instances.

For example, where civilian aren't or were told to evacuate and given ample time to do so.

On that issue, too, I think some might be surprised as to how relevant international laws apply.

 

Don't recall this being a demand leveled vs. other armies in similar situations.

 

Again, I'm talking about realistic stuff.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

 

I don’t take your post seriously.

You are just playing games.

I am making the simple point that there is a huge loss of life on the Palestinian side and you don't seem to be treating it with the seriousness or gravitas it deserves. Simply stating some of the kids are combatants or that some civilians support Hamas clearly is not a sufficient counter argument. Not saying that was your argument. We can concur Hamas are the irrational and or evil bad guys who treat their own people poorly.

 

As an aside I have a problem with Bill Maher's argument too. His go to line is that protesters are dumb as they are supporting Hamas - which is mostly not correct. It also does not address too the reality of the deaths of Palestinians. 

Not sure why that is perceived as some sort of game on my part. But we are not on the same page it seems so leave it there. 

[Rimmer]

Off topic and pointless repetitive arguing posts removed

[Jingthing]

35 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

I am making the simple point that there is a huge loss of life on the Palestinian side and you don't seem to be treating it with the seriousness or gravitas it deserves. Simply stating some of the kids are combatants or that some civilians support Hamas clearly is not a sufficient counter argument. Not saying that was your argument. We can concur Hamas are the irrational and or evil bad guys who treat their own people poorly.

 

As an aside I have a problem with Bill Maher's argument too. His go to line is that protesters are dumb as they are supporting Hamas - which is mostly not correct. It also does not address too the reality of the deaths of Palestinians. 

Not sure why that is perceived as some sort of game on my part. But we are not on the same page it seems so leave it there. 

If they're assuming poorer and darker is always morally superior to richer and lighter, then they are stupid.

If they think Israeli Jews are overwhelmingly "white" then they are stupid. 

If they think Zionism is only about far right extremist Zionist settlers on the west bank, then they are stupid.

If they think Israel is an apartheid state within it's borders, then they are stupid.

If they see the conflict in terms of colonialism, then they are stupid.

If they label things genocide that aren't genocide just to inflame, then they are stupid.

If they refuse to understand that the Jewish people are indiginous to Israel and insist that only Arabs are (who historically came MUCH LATER) then they are stupid.

If they see a direct parallel between discrimination against black people in the US and the Arab Jewish conflict, then they are stupid.

If they chant River to the Sea, they are stupid if they don't know what it means or evil if they do. 

Again I wouldn't have wanted anyone to die on either side due to this current flare up of the conflict.

But to suggest that Hamas actions on October 7 aren't responsible for what's happened is stupid.

If you're saying the specifics of Israel's response to October 7 are debatable, then I would agree with that.

[Neeranam]

7 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

If they think Israel is an apartheid state within it's borders, then they are stupid.

I guess Amnesty International are stupid

 

The discrimination, the dispossession, the repression of dissent, the killings and injuries – all are part of a system which is designed to privilege Jewish Israelis at the expense of Palestinians.  

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

[Neeranam]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

If they chant River to the Sea, they are stupid if they don't know what it means or evil if they do. 

I suggest you read Hamas charter. You falsely claimed Hamas want to kill all Jews, this is far from the truth.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

I guess Amnesty International are stupid

 

The discrimination, the dispossession, the repression of dissent, the killings and injuries – all are part of a system which is designed to privilege Jewish Israelis at the expense of Palestinians.  

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

Yeah I would say they are stupid. Discrimination yes. Apartheid no. Even Noam Chomsky rejects calling Israel an apartheid state within it's borders.

[Bkk Brian]

13 hours ago, Neeranam said:

This guy is trying to justify the slaughter of 7000 + children in a couple of months by posting propaganda videos. They're is nothing to say they are being trained in anything other than an army. 

Speaks volumes. 

You are deliberately misrepresenting what I have posted, dishonest but its how you roll. Its all very well having me on ignore but if your going to talk about me at least have the guts to do so directly. It does not stop me however addressing your dishonesty again.

 

For your information, the 7,000 figure is Hamas produced, however even if true or less it is of course far too much and the suffering for the babies and innocent children killed is awful. Its what Hamas wanted of course, part of their plan. As Jake Sullivan said yesterday.

 

"Hamas on October 7 “massacre[d] 1,200 people in a brutal and savage way. They then turned around and went back into Gaza and hid behind a civilian population, using civilians as human shields, using protected sites like hospitals and schools for military purposes, embedding themselves among the innocent Palestinian people,” while vowing to commit more attacks and destroy Israel."

 

You claim the kids in Gaza are being trained in the army.  You are deluded, they are being trained by Hamas in military style with real weapons on how to abduct, and murder Jews. You attempting to down play that reality is what speaks volumes.

 

This is what some of those 7,000 kids can look like, yes anyone 18 years and younger, some of the so called children released by Israel when there was a pause with hostage/prisoner exchanges.

 

 

[Morch]

Posting biased pamphlets from human rights organizations is not an argument.

[Fat is a type of crazy]

42 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

If they're assuming poorer and darker is always morally superior to richer and lighter, then they are stupid.

If they think Israeli Jews are overwhelmingly "white" then they are stupid. 

If they think Zionism is only about far right extremist Zionist settlers on the west bank, then they are stupid.

If they think Israel is an apartheid state within it's borders, then they are stupid.

If they see the conflict in terms of colonialism, then they are stupid.

If they label things genocide that aren't genocide just to inflame, then they are stupid.

If they refuse to understand that the Jewish people are indiginous to Israel and insist that only Arabs are (who historically came MUCH LATER) then they are stupid.

If they see a direct parallel between discrimination against black people in the US and the Arab Jewish conflict, then they are stupid.

If they chant River to the Sea, they are stupid if they don't know what it means or evil if they do. 

Again I wouldn't have wanted anyone to die on either side due to this current flare up of the conflict.

But to suggest that Hamas actions on October 7 aren't responsible for what's happened is stupid.

If you're saying the specifics of Israel's response to October 7 are debatable, then I would agree with that.

Fair points thanks

[Morch]

I suggest some posters pay attention to what's posted.

Hamas got two charters.

The first one is hardcore antisemitism stuff.

The second one was amended some so that relations with Arab countries and international bodies could be maintained.

As is practiced in Palestinian politics, the new charter does not exactly replace the old one (which is routinely referenced) nor cancel it.

There are simply two versions to choose from as fitting the situation

De facto, nothing changed much.

[Neeranam]

11 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yeah I would say they are stupid. Discrimination yes. Apartheid no. Even Noam Chomsky rejects calling Israel an apartheid state within it's borders.

Not sure what you mean by within its borders. Do you mean outwith its borders there is more discrimination?

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Not sure what you mean by within its borders. Do you mean outwith its borders there is more discrimination?

I think that you do know so I won't humor you. Of course Jerusalem is particularly complicated.

 

The situation with the illegal west bank settlements within Palestinian territory is inexcusable.

[Neeranam]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I think that you do know so I won't humor you. Of course Jerusalem is particularly complicated.

 

The situation with the illegal west bank settlements within Palestinian territory is inexcusable.

I think I understand you now, thanks. Was an honest question.

[simple1]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Doubt they have enough of them, or that they fit for all purposes.

Given the risk of conflagration on other fronts, they would not let stocks go down bellow certain parameters.

 

Also, the usage of 'dumb' bombs (which is misleading, this ain't WWI or WWII stuff) would not necessarily be out of place in all instances.

For example, where civilian aren't or were told to evacuate and given ample time to do so.

On that issue, too, I think some might be surprised as to how relevant international laws apply.

 

Don't recall this being a demand leveled vs. other armies in similar situations.

 

Again, I'm talking about realistic stuff.

For me it's a matter of opinion: I do not hold the viewpoint that the alleged killing of currently nearly 19,000 civilians in Gaza is 'justified'. Recently it's speculated the IDF assault on Gaza will take approx another two months to destroy Hamas killing machine so G_d knows how many more civilians will be killed and for what purpose as currently no-one has articulated the end game.

[CharlieH]

Reported video removed.

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

7 hours ago, Neeranam said:

I suggest you read Hamas charter. You falsely claimed Hamas want to kill all Jews, this is far from the truth.

Have you read the charters, both of them?

 

In fact, the new document differs little from its predecessor. Much like the original, the new document asserts Hamas’s long-standing goal of establishing a sovereign, Islamist Palestinian state that extends, according to Article 2, from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea and from the Lebanese border to the Israeli city of Eilat—in other words, through the entirety of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza and it is similarly unequivocal about “the right of return” of all Palestinian refugees displaced as a result of the 1948 and 1967 wars (Article 12)—which is portrayed as “a natural right, both individual and collective,” divinely ordained and “inalienable.” That right, therefore “cannot be dispensed with by any party, whether Palestinian, Arab or international,” thus again rendering negotiations or efforts to achieve any kind of political settlement between Israel and the Palestinians irrelevant, void, or both. Article 27 forcefully reinforces this point: “There is no alternative to a fully sovereign Palestinian State on the entire national Palestinian soil, with Jerusalem as its capital.”

https://archive.ph/9jXLG

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/

 

A senior member of Gaza's Islamist rulers Hamas has encouraged Palestinians across the globe to kill Jews

A senior member of Gaza's Islamist rulers Hamas has encouraged Palestinians across the globe to kill Jews, drawing outrage from both Israeli and Palestinian officials as well as a U.N. envoy.

In video from a speech to participants of weekly protests on Friday, Fathi Hamad, a member of the movement's top political body, can be seen calling on Palestinians across the globe to carry out attacks.

https://www.voanews.com/a/middle-east_hamas-official-condemned-after-calling-palestinians-kill-jews/6171870.html

[ozimoron]

13 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

 

I keep to the truth and don't make pathetic denials about the kids in Gaza receiving terrorist training including if you had watched the vids re enactments of hostage taking.

 

But don't let the vids fool you, its not only physical activities, its in the written curriculum too which is just as bad, if not worse and we are talking about UN run schools and teachers. They reformed their textbooks in 2014 to 2016 and the result is a curriculum with no mention of a possibility of peace with Israel, but which does contain antisemitism, enthusiasm about violence, examples of how jihad is the most important thing in life, that death is better than life, that it's good to cut an enemy's throat.

 

[student]"I'm ready to stab a Jew and drive [a car] over them." Another says: "We have to constantly stab them, drive over them and shoot them." Yet another adds: "Stabbing and running over the Jews brings dignity to the Palestinians. I'm going to run them over and stab them with knives."

 

 It's the school system that wields the greatest influence on the awareness and ethos of a society. And what they teach the children in the Palestinian school system – where most of them study at UNRWA schools – is that Israel is an amorphous thing, not even a state, a Zionist entity, and that it must be destroyed," she explains. "The goal of the school system is not to discuss the 1967 borders, but to return to the pre-1948 situation. The children say so specifically. It's a society on hold."

Marcus Sheff heads the Institute for Monitoring Peace and Cultural Tolerance in School Education, an organization that analyzes textbooks worldwide. His organization has devoted many years to researching textbooks in these schools and its reports repeatedly show how UNRWA's educational materials incite violence, glorify martyrs and suicide attacks, demonize Israel and promote antisemitism.

https://archive.ph/7x9vG

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2023-12-12/ty-article-magazine/.premium/how-unrwa-became-the-second-most-important-organization-in-gaza/0000018c-5deb-d798-adac-fdefaf450000

 

 

 

Anecdotes by extremists are not proof of anything.

[ozimoron]

7 hours ago, Fat is a type of crazy said:

Fair points thanks

 

Not their not, they're incisive and loaded accusations designed to prevent any countering of the false propositions that each one represents. We have the "I'm not racist because my friend is black" argument as a start. But the real clanger is this incisive proposition.

 

"If they label things genocide that aren't genocide just to inflame, then they are stupid. "

 

The take away is that anybody who accuses Israel of genocide is motivated only by a desire to inflame and the accusation itself must not be debated. What about the possibility that many people will make that accusation because they believe it's true. Are they not entitled to make that argument? Are they stupid if they do? The whole list is the same loaded propaganda.

 

[Jingthing]

Israel means business. 

The top song in Israel now.

It's a war song. Shouldn't be a surprise.

Classic lyric -- They yell at me Free Palestine, but somehow to me it sounds like a holiday sale.

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

12 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Anecdotes by extremists are not proof of anything.

There's a whole article there with sources and evidence, what anecdotes would you be referring that deflects from what the article states? Are you still in denial about the kids receiving terror training?

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

There's a whole article there with sources and evidence, what anecdotes would you be referring that deflects from what the article states?

 

The ones you quoted directly.

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

The ones you quoted directly.

12 year old school kids after having received there schooling in a UN school in Gaza ok

[ozimoron]

5 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

12 year old school kids after having received there schooling in a UN school in Gaza ok

 

I'm sorry, a video of a dozen Palestinian kids getting military training with an unproven allegation that they are being taught to be terrorists as opposed to fighters of any other description doesn't move the needle for me. We still had air ride sirens on my school which were tested every Tuesday when I was doing my sea cadet training. I think our perceived enemies were Indonesian at the time. This is just peripheral noise and manufactured outrage to deflect from the mass killings of Palestinian civilians by indiscriminant bombing.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

I'm sorry, a video of a dozen Palestinian kids getting military training with an unproven allegation that they are being taught to be terrorists as opposed to fighters of any other description doesn't move the needle for me. We still had air ride sirens on my school which were tested every Tuesday when I was doing my sea cadet training. I think our perceived enemies were Indonesian at the time.

The article does not contain a video but yes I can see your still in denial after I have already posted 3 videos that have trained 1000's of kids

[Nick Carter icp]

Just now, ozimoron said:

 

I'm sorry, a video of a dozen Palestinian kids getting military training with an unproven allegation that they are being taught to be terrorists as opposed to fighters of any other description doesn't move the needle for me. We still had air ride sirens on my school which were tested every Tuesday when I was doing my sea cadet training. I think our perceived enemies were Indonesian at the time.

 

 

   Using Children in a war as soldiers is a war crime 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

 

   Using Children in a war as soldiers is a war crime 

 

Yes. So is killing over 5,000 children. Which of these war crimes is more heinous?

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

I'm sorry, a video of a dozen Palestinian kids getting military training with an unproven allegation that they are being taught to be terrorists as opposed to fighters of any other description doesn't move the needle for me. We still had air ride sirens on my school which were tested every Tuesday when I was doing my sea cadet training. I think our perceived enemies were Indonesian at the time.

Indeed, I was trained in the RAF cadets at age 13 and never became a terrorist.

Only an radical extremist would try to justify the deaths of thousands of children.