The Children of Gaza = More than 7000 Killed.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Nobody on this board ever suggested it was or should.

I call BS.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

I call BS.

 

who? when? If you want to accuse somebody of antisemitism you need to prove it, not just say it. That's creepy.

[Hawaiian]

8 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

thaibeachlovers  said:

The land they owned before old white men on the other side of the world took it away and gave it to zionists without their consent.

 

 

Still no answer from  @thaibeachlovers   to my question.  Because there is no such people who occupied a specific area of lands - and there never has been. Clearly he is a person with no idea what they are talking about - all emotions and feelings - and no facts and realities.  Here is some facts and realities for you mate.

 

Palestine is a name that the Romans gave to the area after they had pushed down the Jewish War.  The first Jewish–Roman War (66–73 AD) — also called the First Jewish Revolt or the Great Jewish Revolt, spanning from the 66 AD insurrection, through the 67 AD fall of the Galilee, the destruction of Jerusalem and the Second Temple, and institution of the Fiscus Judaicus in 70 AD, and finally the fall of Masada in 73 AD.

 

 

Maybe when @thaibeachlovers looks at this map above, he will ask where were the so called Palestinians. The answer is there were no such people - it was a word used to describe the whole area - which is now called the Middle East.

 

Plus he will maybe realise the fact that Islam of which the Hamas are a people as such, did not even exist until Mohammed in the year 610 made his first revelations at the age of 40.  Yes mate - 600 years after Christ and 600 years after this map - that was when Mohammed started the religion of Islam - of which the Hamas are a fanatically anti-Jewish group.

 

History of the Jews under Muslim rule - Wikipedia

 

These so called Palestinians in Gaza are nothing but a bunch of fanatic Jewish/Israel hating extremist Muslims who are using the ignorance and stupidity of the western media and its foolish people, to battle for the destruction of Israel and all its Jewish people. Clearly this area and lands were in the hands of the Jewish people before the BS Islamic terrorists even began to exist.  And I could go back a lot longer too - 5000 years - the Jewish people and their history goes back 5000 years on those lands.  I will say it again, Islam did not even start until 600 AD. 'Taken lands' is a total fabrication - given back their lands back after the Arabs were all beaten and conquered during WW2 is more like it.  Check outr Europe post WW2 - many things happened to lands that were previously occupied and previously part of another country. That is the history of history - lose land, win land, lose land, win land - on and on it goes.

 

Thank you for this very clear explanation.  For others on this forum your explanation is as clear as mud. 

And you are right about the history of history-to the victor go the spoils.  Moral or not, that is reality.

[ozimoron]

 

[Bkk Brian]

5 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

We're all from different places so there are bound to be odd interpretations of what's being said and not trying to be rude to you Brian, you do wind me up with some of the way you comment and I like to think I've been around long enough to get over that sort of thing.

That said, I agree on the need for honesty, maybe give a few a bit of slack now and again.

I give plenty of slack but this topic is not about me so if I was you I would leave it there.

[Hawaiian]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@ozimoron

 

I don't think you think much.

You react. Sometimes to actual comments, often to what you imagine people posted.

Your comment hit the nail on the head.  Difficult having an intelligent conversation with that kind of attitude. This is why I'm staying away from him. I hope he feels the same.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Hawaiian
clarification

[thaibeachlovers]

13 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

And where exactly do you think that land was located? 

You know where it was, and what is your point?

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Still no answer from  @thaibeachlovers   to my question.

Unlike some, I don't spend my entire life on here so I can answer fatuous questions.

[thaibeachlovers]

10 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Interesting read, I wasn't aware of this, another thing to blame the British for and WW11.

I wonder if the colonial powers after WW11 would have left the M.E. to get on with their lives if history would have been a lot different?

 

https://www.thetower.org/article/there-was-a-jewish-nakba-and-it-was-even-bigger-than-the-palestinian-one/

Unfortunately not. It might have been different if the Zionist terrorists hadn't made them run away, but they did. Apparently there was a strong zionist element within the British establishment.

During WW2, if I remember correctly the British recruited from the Jews in Palestine, which meant they had military training when they tried to ethnically cleanse Palestine in 1948 in the nakba.

 

https://www.un.org/unispal/about-the-nakba/

The Nakba, which means “catastrophe” in Arabic, refers to the mass displacement and dispossession of Palestinians during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.

 

[Hawaiian]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Rubbish. Who lived there between the expulsion of the Jews couple of millennia ago and  1948? The land was not empty of people, despite zionists fervent desire to proclaim it so.

 

Going on about Roman times is a deflection and means nothing now. If it did, the Native Americans would get the entire North American continent back.

Not posting this as a rebuttal to anyone.  Interesting and informative for even for those very familiar with the history of the area.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Palestine/Palestine-and-the-Palestinians-1949-67

[ezzra]

I listen to talk radio and TV in Israel, and yes, I'm an Israeli, one of the most talked about items on those talks that made of army generals, both ex and present, government officials, ME specialist and strategists, that the world is watching to see how Israel will react and the outcome of this war, among them, countries that would love nothing more than to see Israel and the Jews gone, perished from this earth, and other terror organisations both near and far,

all the above put Israel in a position to show to everyone that if you start a hostility of any kind against Israel and Jews, there will be a heavy price to pay, It is well know fact that even with Hamas gone, there will be some others who will replace them, but maybe, just maybe, the price the Palestinians pays now and in the weeks/months to come, will make them think very hard next time they want to start a war with Israel...

Edited December 24, 2023 by ezzra

[Hawaiian]

29 minutes ago, ezzra said:

I listen to talk radio and TV in Israel, and yes, I'm an Israeli, one of the most talked about items on those talks that made of army generals, both ex and present, government officials, ME specialist and strategists, that the world is watching to see how Israel will react and the outcome of this war, among them, countries that would love nothing more than to see Israel and the Jews gone, perished from this earth, and other terror organisations both near and far,

all the above put Israel in a position to show to everyone that if you start a hostility of any kind against Israel and Jews, there will be a heavy price to pay, It is well know fact that even with Hamas gone, there will be some others who will replace them, but maybe, just maybe, the price the Palestinians pays now and in the weeks/months to come, will make them think very hard next time they want to start a war with Israel...

 

29 minutes ago, ezzra said:

 

Don't be surprised to receive the comment, "Some people never learn."

I would say, "Some do and some don't."

Edited December 24, 2023 by Hawaiian
Correction

[simple1]

11 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Had a look at Wiki for Efraim Karsh and there seems to be a lot of debate on some of his views, not unlike on here, as has been said, " a complicated subject, all round"

 

Content deleted for brevity. Actually I was hoping to get "Morch's" response concerning the author of Palestine Betrayed. The author provides numerous references to official statistics of land ownership prior to 1948 so I'm somewhat surprised at the pushback.

[Morch]

7 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Israeli and American policymakers have also yet to focus on the transformation of some of Hamas’s military leaders shifting from a local, nationalist, religious ideology resisting the Israeli occupation and calling for a Palestinian state into a global jihadist ideology. If such a transformation takes root, Hamas would essentially move away from the Muslim Brotherhood ideology to a radical, Wahhabi Salafi jihadist paradigm. Extremists within the Wahhabi paradigm do not accept the existence of a Jewish state in Palestine.

 

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/hamas-gaza-israel/

 

@ozimoron

 

From the same article:

 

Quote

It’s highly unlikely that Hamas’s political leaders would be allowed to participate in any discussions about postwar Gaza unless the whole Hamas movement, including the military wing, jettisons the global anti-Jewish jihadist paradigm and returns to its local, anti-occupation resistance posture.

 

[ezzra]

25 minutes ago, Hawaiian said:

 

Don't be surprised to receive the comment, "Some people never learn."

I would say, "Some do and some don't."

for those who never learn, they will for ever continue to cry over dead children and life of never ending misery...

I'm just wondering though, being a terror group is not a cheap business and ideology don't pay ten of thousand of people to dig hundreds of km of tunnels and pick up a weapon, if it wasn't for Qatar, Iran and others financing Hamas and Hezbollah to the tune of billions of dollars, would it still be terrorists in the world?...

Edited December 24, 2023 by ezzra

[Morch]

7 hours ago, ozimoron said:

In a recent poll, only 31% of poll respondents said they supported sending Israel weapons, while 43% opposed the idea.

 

The slaughter of children and civilians is radicalizing a new generation inside of the occupied territories and across the Muslim world. The median age of the Palestinian population is 19.6 years old—millions of young people who could fuel a fire that could rage out of control for a generation. It no longer matters how many Hamas militants are killed; Israel is creating a far larger number of replacements. 

 

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/12/22/2213202/-Netanyahu-s-Gaza-War-Has-Failed?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=trending&pm_medium=web

 

 

It's an 'opinion' piece by a poster. From the link:

 

Quote

Community (This content is not subject to review by Daily Kos staff prior to publication.)

 

 

Quote

This content was created by a Daily Kos Community member.

 

[Morch]

7 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

Nobody on this board ever suggested it was or should.

 

That is patently untrue.

 

Given that you do not actually read posts and topics, your comment is beyond ridiculous.

Plenty of such views aired on here over the years, including during the last 2+ months.

Such posts do have a limited 'life span', though, same as:

 

 

6 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

who? when? If you want to accuse somebody of antisemitism you need to prove it, not just say it. That's creepy.

 

Such posts do not stay up very long, normally. To deny they appear is a choice.

Some of the participants on 'your' side of the debate engaged in such more than once on these topics.

 

 

[Morch]

6 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

 

@ozimoron

 

This clip actually shows most buildings not seriously damaged. Shop fronts, windows, some street facing walls yes.

[Morch]

42 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

Content deleted for brevity. Actually I was hoping to get "Morch's" response concerning the author of Palestine Betrayed. The author provides numerous references to official statistics of land ownership prior to 1948 so I'm somewhat surprised at the pushback.

 

You could have sent a PM, or linked my name on the post and ask directly.

I think we've been over this on more than past occasion, though, so not really seeing the point.

 

As mentioned above, the conflicts between relevant historians aren't as bloody as the actual conflict itself, but as heated. There are many versions, many takes, and a whole lot of drama.

 

Hanging on to any of that group as guru, fountain of all knowledge etc., is a choice. In my opinion and (with some) experience - they are mostly ego-maniacs, and once they get going it quickly bring to mind these here 'discussions'.

 

My view is that if people are interested, read them all (well, not Pappe, he's more a political activist than historian), with an open mind. It exemplifies how complex this is. It's worth noting that for some (notably, Morris) there are 'phases', in which conceptual changes can be observed.

 

Overall, this has little bearing on the topics at hand. Much of this historical, and pseudo-historical 'debate' is basically about the misguided fantasy of finding some unassailable, undeniable 'proof' which will somehow nullify the other side's claims and compel him to accept defeat (or something). That's not how things go in real life. There will never be such an 'a-ha!' moment.

[Morch]

45 minutes ago, ezzra said:

for those who never learn, they will for ever continue to cry over dead children and life of never ending misery...

I'm just wondering though, being a terror group is not a cheap business and ideology don't pay ten of thousand of people to dig hundreds of km of tunnels and pick up a weapon, if it wasn't for Qatar, Iran and others financing Hamas and Hezbollah to the tune of billions of dollars, would it still be terrorists in the world?...

 

Could have been curbed. Was not. For political reasons.

Denial ain't gonna do no good.

 

There were terrorist organizations before Iran and Qatar got on the scene.

The difference is one of scale.

[Bkk Brian]

Hamas terror tunnels were built with your money

American, European, and other taxpayer dollars that went into building this terrorist infrastructure. Billions of dollars have been from a bewildering array of countries. All of whom seem to have thought that they were somehow helping the Palestinians in Gaza. Well, we weren’t. Since 2007, the US has sent over $400 million in taxpayers’ money to Gaza.  These are the official figures released by USAID (United States Agency for International Development. USAID also says that it has paid more than $500 million between 2021 and the end of this year.

The EU is spending more than $100 million in Gaza this year. But even the EU countries don’t give as much money to UNRWA as America does.

https://nypost.com/2023/12/21/opinion/hamas-terror-tunnels-were-built-with-your-money/

[ezzra]

56 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

If it wasn't for Natanyahu aiding and abetting terrorists could they have built tho9se tunnels?

Yes, Netanyahu was caught with his pants down and sleeping on the job, under his watch he has allowed millions of dollars

transfers to the Hamas and their cohorts, and allowing many of the Hamas leadership roam free, all in an efforts

to keep the Hamas and the Iranians happy, alas, Hamas took it as a sign of weakness and did what they did on the

7th of October,

so now,Netanyahu is on a crusade to show Hamas, Hezbollah, his people and the rest of the world that he can fix things,

so we wait and see...

[Nick Carter icp]

7 minutes ago, ezzra said:

Yes, Netanyahu was caught with his pants down and sleeping on the job, under his watch he has allowed millions of dollars

transfers to the Hamas and their cohorts, and allowing many of the Hamas leadership roam free, all in an efforts

 

 

  Netanyahu isn't a Worlds Policeman and he cannot control the Hamas leadership and he cannot arrest them or remove then from positions of power because he thinks they are corrupt 

[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, ezzra said:

I listen to talk radio and TV in Israel, and yes, I'm an Israeli

Never would have known ;)

[Nick Carter icp]

2 hours ago, ezzra said:

for those who never learn, they will for ever continue to cry over dead children and life of never ending misery...

I'm just wondering though, being a terror group is not a cheap business and ideology don't pay ten of thousand of people to dig hundreds of km of tunnels and pick up a weapon, if it wasn't for Qatar, Iran and others financing Hamas and Hezbollah to the tune of billions of dollars, would it still be terrorists in the world?...

 

   Why would Hamas even think of peace, when they are getting paid Billions per year to fight against Israel . 

[Rimmer]

Unattributed post and replies removed

Please see our Community Standards

[Jeff the Chef]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Hamas terror tunnels were built with your money

American, European, and other taxpayer dollars that went into building this terrorist infrastructure. Billions of dollars have been from a bewildering array of countries. All of whom seem to have thought that they were somehow helping the Palestinians in Gaza. Well, we weren’t. Since 2007, the US has sent over $400 million in taxpayers’ money to Gaza.  These are the official figures released by USAID (United States Agency for International Development. USAID also says that it has paid more than $500 million between 2021 and the end of this year.

The EU is spending more than $100 million in Gaza this year. But even the EU countries don’t give as much money to UNRWA as America does.

https://nypost.com/2023/12/21/opinion/hamas-terror-tunnels-were-built-with-your-money/

 

Israel is the leading global recipient of Title 22 U.S. security assistance under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program.  This has been formalized by a 10-year (2019-2028) Memorandum of Understanding (MOU).  Consistent with the MOU, the United States annually provides $3.3 billion in FMF and $500 million for cooperative programs for missile defense.

 

https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-israel/#:~:text=Since its founding in 1948,joint exercises%2C and helping Israel

[Jeff the Chef]

Looks like a good business deal to me, $3.3 billion to the Israeli military and $121 million to help the people of Gaza in humanitarian assistants.

 

Today in El-Arish, Egypt, Administrator Samantha Power announced that the United States, through USAID, will provide more than $21 million in additional humanitarian assistance for the people of Gaza and the West Bank affected by the ongoing conflict, which has left approximately 2.2 million people in need of humanitarian assistance. Today’s announcement builds on the $100 million in U.S. humanitarian assistance announced by President Biden on October 18. 

 

https://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/dec-05-2023-united-states-announces-additional-humanitarian-assistance-palestinian-people

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Looks like a good business deal to me, $3.3 billion to the Israeli military and $121 million to help the people of Gaza in humanitarian assistants.

 

Today in El-Arish, Egypt, Administrator Samantha Power announced that the United States, through USAID, will provide more than $21 million in additional humanitarian assistance for the people of Gaza and the West Bank affected by the ongoing conflict, which has left approximately 2.2 million people in need of humanitarian assistance. Today’s announcement builds on the $100 million in U.S. humanitarian assistance announced by President Biden on October 18. 

 

https://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/dec-05-2023-united-states-announces-additional-humanitarian-assistance-palestinian-people

 

You are referencing monies which are mostly allocated for Buying American. That is, they can be spent in the USA buying from USA firms. Like a subsidy. It's not same same, other than in your mind.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Morch

[Bkk Brian]

13 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

 

Israel is the leading global recipient of Title 22 U.S. security assistance under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program.  This has been formalized by a 10-year (2019-2028) Memorandum of Understanding (MOU).  Consistent with the MOU, the United States annually provides $3.3 billion in FMF and $500 million for cooperative programs for missile defense.

 

https://www.state.gov/u-s-security-cooperation-with-israel/#:~:text=Since its founding in 1948,joint exercises%2C and helping Israel

My post was regarding Hamas using foreign aid money from a variety of countries to enrich itself and its military infrastructure including tunnels rather than the people of Gaza.

 

The US FMF program is relevant how?