Opinion Stakes are immense as Biden presses Israel to change course

[CharlieH]

By Barbara Plett Usher, State Dept correspondent and Anthony Zurcher, North America correspondent

BBC News

The US has a new diplomatic objective in the Gaza War - to convince Israel to scale back its military operations in coming weeks. This is a crucial test of the Biden administration, and whether it succeeds could help determine the next phase of the war - as well as the president's own political fortunes back home.

 

In public, the American effort to shape and restrain Israel's war has taken the form of advice rather than pressure.

US officials - from Mr Biden to Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Defence Secretary Lloyd Austin - have continually affirmed what they present as Israel's right to self-defence, and declared that a military operation which stops short of removing Hamas from power would only guarantee more attacks.

As the conflict wore on, they've also become more outspoken about the need to protect civilians, warning that not doing so would land Israel with a "strategic defeat."

Much of the world sees this approach as failing to temper a relentless bombing campaign that ranks among the most deadly and destructive this century.

US officials insist their strategy has been the most effective way for the administration to influence an Israel traumatised by the unprecedented Hamas attack and disinclined to hold back.

 

Yet American policy since that day has fractured Joe Biden's Democratic Party, lost him crucial support among young and Arab Americans and left the US looking isolated on the world stage.

So far, President Biden's approach has achieved tangible, if limited, results.

Persistent and painstaking diplomacy cleared a path to allowing some humanitarian aid into Gaza early on in the war, and helped broker a seven-day ceasefire to encourage hostage releases and the delivery of more assistance to desperate civilians.

The Americans have certainly been very hands on. A steady stream of senior officials to the region has meant there's been someone in the room much of the time, having the difficult conversations face to face.

"These trips are important because we have constant issues that we're dealing with together with the Israelis," said a US official.

Each of Mr Blinken's three visits to the region has been a whirlwind of activity and he's been keen to highlight continued American efforts to free the hostages, increase humanitarian aid and ensure the conflict does not expand to consume the entire Middle East.

 

Progress on protecting civilians has been hard to see. This week the death toll in Gaza reached 20,000, according to the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry. The Hamas raid on southern Israel on 7 October killed some 1,200 people, mostly civilians, and saw about 240 taken hostage.

 

 

FULL ARTICLE

 

 

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/23/2023 at 5:31 PM, CharlieH said:

Progress on protecting civilians has been hard to see.

That could be because there hasn't been any "progress", though with the US secretary of Defense "all pals together" act with the israelis it's not hard to see why.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/23/2023 at 5:31 PM, CharlieH said:

Each of Mr Blinken's three visits to the region has been a whirlwind of activity and he's been keen to highlight continued American efforts to free the hostages, increase humanitarian aid and ensure the conflict does not expand to consume the entire Middle East.

IMO only 2 of those are important to Biden, freeing the hostages and ensuring the conflict does not expand to consume the entire Middle East.

IMO the chance of Hamas releasing many more of the non military hostages is virtually nil and of the military zero. Hamas would be mad to release hostages without a permanent ceasefire. Civilian pressure on netanyahu is increasing and he must be feeling the pressure, or he would not have trotted out the president to ask if another pause could be arranged with hostage releases.

 

The last thing Biden needs at this stage in the American election cycle is another war with American boys coming home in bags.

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That could be because there hasn't been any "progress", though with the US secretary of Defense "all pals together" act with the israelis it's not hard to see why.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Hamas could have helped minimize Palestinian casualties by

 

(a)

Not starting the war.

 

(b)

Providing locals with shelter.

 

(c)

Avoiding launching rockets and attacks from civilian areas/facilities.

 

(d)

Not trying to deter civilians from evacuating.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

IMO only 2 of those are important to Biden, freeing the hostages and ensuring the conflict does not expand to consume the entire Middle East.

IMO the chance of Hamas releasing many more of the non military hostages is virtually nil and of the military zero. Hamas would be mad to release hostages without a permanent ceasefire. Civilian pressure on netanyahu is increasing and he must be feeling the pressure, or he would not have trotted out the president to ask if another pause could be arranged with hostage releases.

 

The last thing Biden needs at this stage in the American election cycle is another war with American boys coming home in bags.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

What are you on about? When was there an actual possibility of 'American boys coming home in bags' with regard to this war?

 

[Rimmer]

A troll post has been removed

[Neeranam]

What a dilemma faced by Biden: choosing between safeguarding his career and taking a morally principled stance by withdrawing support for what some view as a form of genocide - realpolitik considerations and the ethical imperative to address human rights abuses. This continued support of Israel shows the true extent of the US commitment to human rights and justice in foreign policy decisions. He's very similar to Baby Bush and the slaughter of re 300,000 civilians in the unjust Iraq war -  same same here, Biden knows that if Bush didn't suffer any consequences for his crimes, he will get off with his.

[Morch]

That a nice little projection job.

[ozimoron]

Biden will lose the election because of anti Israeli sentiment building in the US. I presume even among Dem voting Jews. That will allow Netanyahu to push Iran and Hezbollah into a war, knowing that the US will be forced to back him. If Trump wins, Russia wins and much of Eastern Europe becomes Soviet Union again. What would be worse, letting Russia take Ukraine or forcing Israel into a UN approved settlement with the Palestinians?

Edited December 24, 2023 by ozimoron

[Morch]

Just now, ozimoron said:

Biden will lose the election because of anti-israeli sentiment building in the US. I presume even among Dem voting Jews. That will allow Netanyahu to push Iran and Hezbollah into a war, knowing that the US will be forced to back him. If Trump wins, Russia wins and Much of Eastern Europe becomes Soviet Union again. Whta would be worse, letting Russia take Ukraine or forcing Israel into a UN approved settlement with the Palestinians?

 

@ozimoron

 

The Oracle Has Spoken.

 

Never mind your cheap imitation crystal ball - but Biden was behind on the polls before this.

 

Netanyahu does not want war with Hezbollah - that's the reason an opposition party (led by two former IDF Chiefs of Staff) was invited to the war cabinet. Basically, they are there as counter-balance to the extremist elements in his government. War against Iran? Not going to happen, Israel under Netanyahu talked a lot, but never acted on a military level.

 

Eastern Europe becomes Soviet Union again? In which alternative reality?

 

The levels of ignorance and presumption on display are almost embarrassing.

[Bkk Brian]

14 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Biden will lose the election because of anti Israeli sentiment building in the US. I presume even among Dem voting Jews. That will allow Netanyahu to push Iran and Hezbollah into a war, knowing that the US will be forced to back him. If Trump wins, Russia wins and much of Eastern Europe becomes Soviet Union again. What would be worse, letting Russia take Ukraine or forcing Israel into a UN approved settlement with the Palestinians?

You do know it was Hamas that wanted Iran to join the war right. You don't appear to be very up to speed on this.

[ozimoron]

6 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You do know it was Hamas that wanted Iran to join the war right. You don't appear to be very up to speed on this.

 

You'd need to provide a link, Iran is no friend of Hamas. I have posted links demonstrating that Hezbollah and Iran are trying to avoid a regional war with Israel and Biden is doing his all to prevent that. I hear (and see)now that there are credible accounts of Israeli aircraft in the air to attack Hezbollah before Biden talked him out of it.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-iaf-was-airbone-for-preemptive-hezbollah-hit-when-biden-talked-pm-out-of-it/

[Bkk Brian]

15 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

You'd need to provide a link, Iran is no friend of Hamas. I have posted links demonstrating that Hezbollah and Iran are trying to avoid a regional war with Israel and Biden is doing his all to prevent that. I hear (and see)now that there are credible accounts of Israeli aircraft in the air to attack Hezbollah before Biden talked him out of it.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-iaf-was-airbone-for-preemptive-hezbollah-hit-when-biden-talked-pm-out-of-it/

Jeez, I was right, you really are not up to speed at all. Of course Hamas wanted Iran to join the war, still does. That does not mean Iran wants to join, which we know it currently does not.....lol

 

Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei reportedly told Hamas chief Ismail Haniyeh earlier this month that, since Tehran was not given prior notice of the devastating terror onslaught of October 7, it would not join the war against Israel. The Iranian leader also reportedly asked Haniyeh to “silence those voices” in Hamas calling for Iran and its proxy terror group Hezbollah to directly join the war against Israel “in full force.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/khamenei-reportedly-told-hamas-chief-iran-will-not-directly-enter-war/

[ozimoron]

Just now, Bkk Brian said:

Jeez, I was right, you really are not up to speed at all. Of course Hamas wanted Iran to join the war, still does. That does not mean Iran wants to join, which we know it currently does not.....lol

 

Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei reportedly told Hamas chief Ismail Haniyeh earlier this month that, since Tehran was not given prior notice of the devastating terror onslaught of October 7, it would not join the war against Israel. The Iranian leader also reportedly asked Haniyeh to “silence those voices” in Hamas calling for Iran and its proxy terror group Hezbollah to directly join the war against Israel “in full force.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/khamenei-reportedly-told-hamas-chief-iran-will-not-directly-enter-war/

 

I said Iran wasn't a friend of Hamas and therefore didn't want to join the war. You are misrepresenting everything I say just to harass me.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I said Iran wasn't a friend of Hamas and therefore didn't want to join the war. You are misrepresenting everything I say just to harass me.

 

@ozimoron

 

You 'say' a whole lot of things. Much of what you 'say' is biased, inaccurate, or plain wrong.

You don't seem to actually know much about this.

 

Iranian support for Hamas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_support_for_Hamas

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I said Iran wasn't a friend of Hamas and therefore didn't want to join the war. You are misrepresenting everything I say just to harass me.

Here we go again, you just can't follow a string can you, let me highlight this for you:

 

52 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Biden will lose the election because of anti Israeli sentiment building in the US. I presume even among Dem voting Jews. That will allow Netanyahu to push Iran and Hezbollah into a war, knowing that the US will be forced to back him. If Trump wins, Russia wins and much of Eastern Europe becomes Soviet Union again. What would be worse, letting Russia take Ukraine or forcing Israel into a UN approved settlement with the Palestinians?

 

I replied with a well known fact. Very simple, nothing else, the fact being that Hamas wanted Iran to join the war.

36 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You do know it was Hamas that wanted Iran to join the war right. You don't appear to be very up to speed on this.

You asked for a link

28 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

You'd need to provide a link, Iran is no friend of Hamas. I have posted links demonstrating that Hezbollah and Iran are trying to avoid a regional war with Israel and Biden is doing his all to prevent that. I hear (and see)now that there are credible accounts of Israeli aircraft in the air to attack Hezbollah before Biden talked him out of it.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/report-iaf-was-airbone-for-preemptive-hezbollah-hit-when-biden-talked-pm-out-of-it/

I provided a link to the fact I gave:

10 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Jeez, I was right, you really are not up to speed at all. Of course Hamas wanted Iran to join the war, still does. That does not mean Iran wants to join, which we know it currently does not.....lol

 

Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei reportedly told Hamas chief Ismail Haniyeh earlier this month that, since Tehran was not given prior notice of the devastating terror onslaught of October 7, it would not join the war against Israel. The Iranian leader also reportedly asked Haniyeh to “silence those voices” in Hamas calling for Iran and its proxy terror group Hezbollah to directly join the war against Israel “in full force.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/khamenei-reportedly-told-hamas-chief-iran-will-not-directly-enter-war/

Job done

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

Here we go again, you just can't follow a string can you, let me highlight this for you:

 

 

I replied with a well known fact. Very simple, nothing else, the fact being that Hamas wanted Iran to join the war.

You asked for a link

I provided a link to the fact I gave:

Job done

 

You're not making any comprehensible point, just attacking your perceived antagonists.

[timendres]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

What are you on about? When was there an actual possibility of 'American boys coming home in bags' with regard to this war?

 

I believe the poster was referring to: "ensuring the conflict does not expand to consume the entire Middle East.", in which case, the US might be pulled into the action, and thus body bags nearly guaranteed. Doubtful, however, that this would unfold before the next election.

[billd766]

IMHO only President Biden is in a position to stop Netanyahu continuing this pointless was of revenge and destruction. Sadly if he uses the US military power and influence to do so, it may cost him the Presidency, the Democrats the next election and let that maniac Trump and the spineless gop back into power. 

 

Trump, again IMHO, would immediately reverse President Biden's decision and encourage Netanyahu to destroy Hamas, every Palestinian man woman and child in the region and plunge the whole area into a war of destruction.

 

President Biden and the USA are screwed up one way or the other.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, timendres said:

 

I believe the poster was referring to: "ensuring the conflict does not expand to consume the entire Middle East.", in which case, the US might be pulled into the action, and thus body bags nearly guaranteed. Doubtful, however, that this would unfold before the next election.

 

As of now, the only actual involvement happens vs. the shores of Yemen, protecting trade routes - which is a USA interest. There are no signs of the USA having any intention to actually intervene, and if anything, its actions mostly serve to limit the scope of the conflict form expanding.

 

Considering poster's political leanings in regard to the USA elections, taking his comments at face value is a choice.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, billd766 said:

IMHO only President Biden is in a position to stop Netanyahu continuing this pointless was of revenge and destruction. Sadly if he uses the US military power and influence to do so, it may cost him the Presidency, the Democrats the next election and let that maniac Trump and the spineless gop back into power. 

 

Trump, again IMHO, would immediately reverse President Biden's decision and encourage Netanyahu to destroy Hamas, every Palestinian man woman and child in the region and plunge the whole area into a war of destruction.

 

President Biden and the USA are screwed up one way or the other.

 

@billd766

 

Pointless how?

You saying pointless doesn't make it so, nor does it amount to a whole lot.

 

Biden using USA military power to compel Israel? On what planet are you living on? I mean....fantasizing is alright, but.

[Bkk Brian]

49 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

You're not making any comprehensible point, just attacking your perceived antagonists.

That's one way to deflect. Unfortunately for you, it's  Black and white above what I am doing.

[pegman]

Americans ought to be ashamed of themselves for supporting the despicable apartheid regime of  Israel.

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2023 by pegman

[Morch]

@pegman

 

Of course they should. There there.

Marry Christmas.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 12/24/2023 at 9:38 PM, billd766 said:

Trump, again IMHO, would immediately reverse President Biden's decision and encourage Netanyahu to destroy Hamas,

On that small part of your post I reluctantly agree. Trump's position on israel is the only area that I fundamentally disagree with.

 

Do you actually think Biden is going to make netanyahu stop? I do not. IMO he's just lying when he and his staff claim to be "doing everything possible" to make israel stop blowing up women and children.

If he wanted to he could have done so 2 months ago, and it's only the threat to his re election that makes him give lip service to restraint.

[Wobblybob]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

On that small part of your post I reluctantly agree. Trump's position on israel is the only area that I fundamentally disagree with.

 

Do you actually think Biden is going to make netanyahu stop? I do not. IMO he's just lying when he and his staff claim to be "doing everything possible" to make israel stop blowing up women and children.

If he wanted to he could have done so 2 months ago, and it's only the threat to his re election that makes him give lip service to restraint.

And when Hamas has openly declared that it will continue with these sadistic attacks why should Israel even consider a cease fire untill every last evil terrorist is removed from this planet, a cease fire will not secure the safety of Israeli citizens. 

[billd766]

9 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

On that small part of your post I reluctantly agree. Trump's position on israel is the only area that I fundamentally disagree with.

 

Do you actually think Biden is going to make netanyahu stop? I do not. IMO he's just lying when he and his staff claim to be "doing everything possible" to make israel stop blowing up women and children.

If he wanted to he could have done so 2 months ago, and it's only the threat to his re election that makes him give lip service to restraint.

I agree with you there. President Biden is in a cleft stick. If he chooses to act and stop Netanyahu,  he will bring a lot of young Americans to his side and a lot of unhappy Arab and Arab states worldwide.

 

However the Arab states have no votes in the USA though they do have a degree of influence.

 

If he does nothing to stop Netanyahu he will be condemned by many people and countries worldwide, and all the time he has Trump and the gop snapping at his heels, slavering to get into power.

 

He certainly has my pity and mu sympathy. I hope that he can work it out very soon without any more senseless and pointless deaths.

[stevenl]

15 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

And when Hamas has openly declared that it will continue with these sadistic attacks why should Israel even consider a cease fire untill every last evil terrorist is removed from this planet, a cease fire will not secure the safety of Israeli citizens. 

You really believe what you're writing 'israel will remove every last evil terrorist and so secure the safety of Israeli citizens '?

[Morch]

51 minutes ago, stevenl said:

You really believe what you're writing 'israel will remove every last evil terrorist and so secure the safety of Israeli citizens '?

 

I can't answer for poster's views, but the way I see it that's not going to happen and was never going to happen.

Root out everyone is a tall order. Dealing with management, and middle management is more realistic.

As a secondary goal, members with direct combat roles.

[Wobblybob]

45 minutes ago, stevenl said:

You really believe what you're writing 'israel will remove every last evil terrorist and so secure the safety of Israeli citizens '?

Honestly do you realise what you write. Do you want the barbarians that have committed these heinous crimes in Israel to walk away without having to answer for the sadistic slaying of innocent Israelis, and the Palestinians have spoken about continuing these 9/10 attacks. You really want more evil attacks on Israelis because some posters on here seem to subscribe to that way of thinking. The Israelis have little or no choice but to despatch these sadistic monsters. HTH!