Opinion Stakes are immense as Biden presses Israel to change course

[Morch]

28 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Or we could realise that both were war crimes.

 

@ozimoron

 

As much as you don't like to accept it, you're wrong.

 

Hamas 7/10 attack definitely involved war crimes. No questions.

Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip may have.

That difference.

[Bkk Brian]

35 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

OMG!

You called?

[ozimoron]

24 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

One would not have happened without the vile sadistic invasion by the Palestinian beastial invaders, I think we can both agree on that. 

 

I do agree and I believe it would also not have happened without the vile, bestial war crimes committed by Israel since 1948.

[Morch]

37 minutes ago, stevenl said:

What I want and what I think are different things. 

'israel will remove every last evil terrorist and so secure the safety of Israeli citizens ' no chance of that happening.

 

Indeed.

 

But to the extant that this is wartime rhetoric, I think the point is not 'each and every' one, but hard enough to significantly minimize the threat, in a way that also prevents it from being re-surfacing anytime soon. That a tall order as well, and maybe not attainable under diplomatic and political conditions.

 

No perfect answers.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You called?

 

 

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

I do agree and I believe it would also not have happened without the vile, bestial war crimes committed by Israel since 1948.

 

@ozimoron

 

The usual deflection when you cannot address a point.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

What I want and what I think are different things. 

'israel will remove every last evil terrorist and so secure the safety of Israeli citizens ' no chance of that happening.

Agree. IMO the entire "we will get rid of every Hamas and live in peace thereafter" thing is a nonsense. How can they tell if anyone is Hamas or not Hamas out of 2.3 ( probably 2.2 by now )million people, especially if almost every male Gazan now wants to take revenge on israel.

Do they actually want to get rid of the entire population, one way or another? Even the US has said that is not a starter.

 

Even if it were possible to seperate every Hamas and somehow remove them from the earth, there are millions of Palestinians living outside israel/ Palestine, and IMO many if not most of them now want revenge on israelis. Does netanayahu, even in his dreams, think he can get them too?

 

IMO israel has 2 choices that can actually be accomplished ( assuming there will still be millions of Palestinians living in the area after the conflict ends ) is to either make peace with them somehow ( and that may now be impossible ) or live as an armed and fearful society for the indefinite future, always looking over their shoulder, and completely dependent on the US never changing it's mind about covering for them in the UN, and also hoping the other countries in the UN haven't had enough of the US intransigence and take action despite the US veto to sanction them into oblivion like they did the white South African government.

[stevenl]

8 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

Well lets keep our fingers crossed and realise that when the Palestinians invaded Israel it was war but when Israel invaded Gaza it was classed as war crimes, time to wake up and smell the coffee! 

Which has nothing to do with my post or the post you replied to.

[Wobblybob]

48 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Which has nothing to do with my post or the post you replied to.

Who cares, not me, it was an answer you deserve! 

[Neeranam]

9 hours ago, Morch said:

 

@ozimoron

 

As much as you don't like to accept it, you're wrong.

 

Hamas 7/10 attack definitely involved war crimes. No questions.

Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip may have.

That difference.

War crimes can not be committed unless in times of war. 

[thaibeachlovers]

48 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

War crimes can not be committed unless in times of war. 

Crimes against humanity can take place even without a war, and IMO israel has committed enough of them since 1967 to keep the ICC busy for as long.

Collective punishment is a crime against humanity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment

Collective punishment is prohibited by treaty in both international and non-international armed conflicts, more specifically Common Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention and Article 4 of the Additional Protocol II.[1][2]

[Neeranam]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Crimes against humanity can take place even without a war, and IMO israel has committed enough of them since 1967 to keep the ICC busy for as long.

Collective punishment is a crime against humanity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment

Collective punishment is prohibited by treaty in both international and non-international armed conflicts, more specifically Common Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention and Article 4 of the Additional Protocol II.[1][2]

I see.

 

Is this a war crime?

 

Quote

As of December 31, Israeli authorities also held, according to Israeli Prison Services figures, 866 Palestinians in administrative detention without charge or trial based on secret evidence.

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2022/country-chapters/israel-and-palestine-0

[Neeranam]

Even an Israeli Human Rights org. states that Israel have committed war crimes, yet some here will not bring themselves to say it -  lack of integrity.

 

https://www.btselem.org/

The war in the Gaza Strip has been ongoing for over seventy days. Since its start, Hamas and Israel have demonstrated flagrant disregard for the rules of international humanitarian law: Israel has waged an unconstrained attack on the population of Gaza that includes bombing on an unprecedented scale, that have killed around 19,000 people and created a humanitarian catastrophe. Hamas for its part uses Gazans as human shields and endangers their lives. In light of this, the inescapable conclusion is that continuing the war will entail more human rights violations and more war crimes, and the fighting must therefore be stopped immediately to prevent further harm to civilians.

[thaibeachlovers]

25 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I see.

 

Is this a war crime?

 

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2022/country-chapters/israel-and-palestine-0

As it is happening in the West Bank and israel has not declared war there it's probably a crime against humanity.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

War crimes can not be committed unless in times of war. 

 

Nonsense.

And runs counter to the Palestinian narrative, even.

Get your arguments in order.

[Morch]

10 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Agree. IMO the entire "we will get rid of every Hamas and live in peace thereafter" thing is a nonsense. How can they tell if anyone is Hamas or not Hamas out of 2.3 ( probably 2.2 by now )million people, especially if almost every male Gazan now wants to take revenge on israel.

Do they actually want to get rid of the entire population, one way or another? Even the US has said that is not a starter.

 

Even if it were possible to seperate every Hamas and somehow remove them from the earth, there are millions of Palestinians living outside israel/ Palestine, and IMO many if not most of them now want revenge on israelis. Does netanayahu, even in his dreams, think he can get them too?

 

IMO israel has 2 choices that can actually be accomplished ( assuming there will still be millions of Palestinians living in the area after the conflict ends ) is to either make peace with them somehow ( and that may now be impossible ) or live as an armed and fearful society for the indefinite future, always looking over their shoulder, and completely dependent on the US never changing it's mind about covering for them in the UN, and also hoping the other countries in the UN haven't had enough of the US intransigence and take action despite the US veto to sanction them into oblivion like they did the white South African government.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

Your usual waffle aside, nothing that you ever posted addresses how this ongoing conflict effects Palestinian society. Seems like for you they are all some sort of drones ready to pick up the fight and with little else to define them.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

Even an Israeli Human Rights org. states that Israel have committed war crimes, yet some here will not bring themselves to say it -  lack of integrity.

 

https://www.btselem.org/

The war in the Gaza Strip has been ongoing for over seventy days. Since its start, Hamas and Israel have demonstrated flagrant disregard for the rules of international humanitarian law: Israel has waged an unconstrained attack on the population of Gaza that includes bombing on an unprecedented scale, that have killed around 19,000 people and created a humanitarian catastrophe. Hamas for its part uses Gazans as human shields and endangers their lives. In light of this, the inescapable conclusion is that continuing the war will entail more human rights violations and more war crimes, and the fighting must therefore be stopped immediately to prevent further harm to civilians.

 

How do you mean 'even'? There are more than one such human rights organizations in Israel, never mind local branches of international ones. Israelis having critical views of Israel is hardly news. Finding Palestinian counterparts who openly critic their leaderships - that's another matter.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

As it is happening in the West Bank and israel has not declared war there it's probably a crime against humanity.

 

@thaibeachlovers

 

The Legal Expert Has Spoken.

[Bkk Brian]

4 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Even an Israeli Human Rights org. states that Israel have committed war crimes, yet some here will not bring themselves to say it -  lack of integrity.

 

https://www.btselem.org/

The war in the Gaza Strip has been ongoing for over seventy days. Since its start, Hamas and Israel have demonstrated flagrant disregard for the rules of international humanitarian law: Israel has waged an unconstrained attack on the population of Gaza that includes bombing on an unprecedented scale, that have killed around 19,000 people and created a humanitarian catastrophe. Hamas for its part uses Gazans as human shields and endangers their lives. In light of this, the inescapable conclusion is that continuing the war will entail more human rights violations and more war crimes, and the fighting must therefore be stopped immediately to prevent further harm to civilians.

War crimes have been perpetrated by Hamas everyday since Oct 7th by using children and adult civilians as human shields, never once seen you condemning that.

[billd766]

5 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

As it is happening in the West Bank and Israel has not declared war there it's probably a crime against humanity.

Thank you for that very interesting link.

 

Sadly it will not matter to a lot of posters on these forums who believe that Israel, right or wrong, is always right no matter what. They are the ones with the closed minds who truly believe that every Palestinian man, woman and child is a Hamas terrorist, (especially in the case of children and babies) are terrorists in training. and should be exterminated at all costs by the good, scrupulously honest, trusted worldwide by everybody, IDF and Netanyahu's Israeli government.

 

Their are persons on this forum and thread who will vilify me for this post, as they do you.

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Thank you for that very interesting link.

 

Sadly it will not matter to a lot of posters on these forums who believe that Israel, right or wrong, is always right no matter what. They are the ones with the closed minds who truly believe that every Palestinian man, woman and child is a Hamas terrorist, (especially in the case of children and babies) are terrorists in training. and should be exterminated at all costs by the good, scrupulously honest, trusted worldwide by everybody, IDF and Netanyahu's Israeli government.

 

Their are persons on this forum and thread who will vilify me for this post, as they do you.

 

@billd766

 

This is what comes out of imagining what people post and think rather than engaging with them.

Most of what you posted above is plain over the top BS.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Morch

[ozimoron]

 

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

Thank you for that very interesting link.

 

Sadly it will not matter to a lot of posters on these forums who believe that Israel, right or wrong, is always right no matter what. They are the ones with the closed minds who truly believe that every Palestinian man, woman and child is a Hamas terrorist, (especially in the case of children and babies) are terrorists in training. and should be exterminated at all costs by the good, scrupulously honest, trusted worldwide by everybody, IDF and Netanyahu's Israeli government.

 

Their are persons on this forum and thread who will vilify me for this post, as they do you.

Thanks for posting Bill, I agree with you totally.

 

 

[coolcarer]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

Thank you for that very interesting link.

 

Sadly it will not matter to a lot of posters on these forums who believe that Israel, right or wrong, is always right no matter what. They are the ones with the closed minds who truly believe that every Palestinian man, woman and child is a Hamas terrorist, (especially in the case of children and babies) are terrorists in training. and should be exterminated at all costs by the good, scrupulously honest, trusted worldwide by everybody, IDF and Netanyahu's Israeli government.

 

Their are persons on this forum and thread who will vilify me for this post, as they do you.

What’s it like making things up about what other posters believe. You could always try starting a new topic in the fiction section.

[Morch]

@ozimoron

 

The West Bank is not even mentioned in the OP.

 

[billd766]

25 minutes ago, coolcarer said:

What’s it like making things up about what other posters believe. You could always try starting a new topic in the fiction section.

Probably much the same as trying to divert the post that you are replying to.

 

Now I was responding to a link in a thread by another poster and I am AFAIK on topic.

 

How about you? Do you have any thoughts of your own about the topic, or the link or is it that you don't like my response?

[coolcarer]

1 minute ago, billd766 said:

Probably much the same as trying to divert the post that you are replying to.

 

Now I was responding to a link in a thread by another poster and I am AFAIK on topic.

 

How about you? Do you have any thoughts of your own about the topic, or the link or is it that you don't like my response?

How about me? I would like see see some evidence of all your claims. 
 

 

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

Thank you for that very interesting link.

 

Sadly it will not matter to a lot of posters on these forums who believe that Israel, right or wrong, is always right no matter what. They are the ones with the closed minds who truly believe that every Palestinian man, woman and child is a Hamas terrorist, (especially in the case of children and babies) are terrorists in training. and should be exterminated at all costs by the good, scrupulously honest, trusted worldwide by everybody, IDF and Netanyahu's Israeli government.

 

Their are persons on this forum and thread who will vilify me for this post, as they do you.