Nick Carter icp Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 hour ago, Morch said: You would be wrong. That figure is taken from a poll citing support for Hamas (by the way, lower figures for the Gaza Strip). It is not the same as being a card carrying member. Take it a step further, not even all Hamas members are terrorists - Hamas operates many social, welfare projects etc. which got little to do with its military activities. I saw many people in Gaza celebrating Ovt 7 th , on the streets and celebrating he attack . Were there any demonstrations in Gaza condemning the attack ? The terror attacks seemed to have full support from Gaza 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 hour ago, Jeff the Chef said: Living a great life on the Gaza Riviera, yes they were alive, just. No, not a great life, and this obviously was not claimed. But alive. Guess most of them would prefer that. It's kinda odd how some go on and on about dead Palestinians, but when pointed out they were alive on 6/10, that's somehow not good enough. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 2 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said: It is not up to me or anybody else to determine guilt or innocence at the ICJ, it is up to the Judges. Yes, that was the point that I was making to you , you don't need to make the same point back to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said: I saw many people in Gaza celebrating Ovt 7 th , on the streets and celebrating he attack . Were there any demonstrations in Gaza condemning the attack ? The terror attacks seemed to have full support from Gaza People were indeed celebrating. And no, there were no protests in condemnation. But celebrating the attack, vile as it is, does not necessarily make one a Hamas member, nor does it imply some death warrant. Those who participated, aided and so on - that's a different matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 10 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said: Living a great life on the Gaza Riviera, yes they were alive, just. Yet some would have preferred it that way, some would have preferred Hamas had never carried out Oct 7th and started this whole war and destruction. Not all of them would like to be martyrs despite Hamas insistence that the Gaza Population deaths is a sacrifice worth taking and actively promote it. Hamas’s Strategy of Human Sacrifice Never before has a party adopted a war strategy to maximize civilian deaths on its own side. https://www.hudson.org/terrorism/hamas-strategy-human-sacrifice-douglas-feith What some Gazans say though not the majority Gazans Are Starting to Blame Hamas for Wartime Suffering criticism has begun spreading against the militant group, with Gazans blaming the militants for having provoked Israel’s wrath and for their inability to shield the population from a devastating war and a humanitarian crisis that deepens by the day. https://archive.ph/AuDjR https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gazans-are-starting-to-blame-hamas-for-wartime-suffering-066256b0 https://twitter.com/ofirgendelman/status/1743213149245866144 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Just to be clear, same #SouthAfrica that is serving as pawn of the Palestinians in accusing Israel of genocide at ICJ, has been for long time now embracing war criminals and actual perpetrators of genocide, like Iran, Omar al-Bashir and Hamas leaders! https://twitter.com/Ostrov_A/status/1743273187847094289 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 14 hours ago, Jeff the Chef said: No matter how anybody feels about the case before the ICJ on the 11th January 2024 it has nothing to do with Hamas, it is all about Israel. Some further clarification for you Jeff on why it is all about Hamas not just Israel. Not matter how you feel about it, that's the reality Chef How Israel will fight Gaza genocide accusations in The Hague As part of the defense, Israel’s advocates will almost certainly detail the atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7 — the rapes and beheadings, the abductions, the cold-blooded murder of unarmed civilians regardless of age and gender. They will argue Israel has the right to defend itself, and that to do so without causing civilian casualties is impossible because of how Hamas chooses to fight — hiding behind Gazans, embedded among civilians. “On the merits, the [South African] brief is absurd and is a textbook example of atrocity inversion,” said Anne Herzberg, legal adviser at NGO Monitor — a conservative Jerusalem-based NGO reporting on international NGO activity from a pro-Israel perspective. “The 7 October Hamas massacre is reduced to two sanitized paragraphs in the 84-page brief. It completely ignores Hamas’ tactics of embedding within civilian infrastructure and diversion of humanitarian aid intended for the people of Gaza,” she added. https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-gaza-genocide-accusations-war-crimes-the-hague/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff the Chef Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 8 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said: Some further clarification for you Jeff on why it is all about Hamas not just Israel. Not matter how you feel about it, that's the reality Chef How Israel will fight Gaza genocide accusations in The Hague As part of the defense, Israel’s advocates will almost certainly detail the atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7 — the rapes and beheadings, the abductions, the cold-blooded murder of unarmed civilians regardless of age and gender. They will argue Israel has the right to defend itself, and that to do so without causing civilian casualties is impossible because of how Hamas chooses to fight — hiding behind Gazans, embedded among civilians. “On the merits, the [South African] brief is absurd and is a textbook example of atrocity inversion,” said Anne Herzberg, legal adviser at NGO Monitor — a conservative Jerusalem-based NGO reporting on international NGO activity from a pro-Israel perspective. “The 7 October Hamas massacre is reduced to two sanitized paragraphs in the 84-page brief. It completely ignores Hamas’ tactics of embedding within civilian infrastructure and diversion of humanitarian aid intended for the people of Gaza,” she added. https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-gaza-genocide-accusations-war-crimes-the-hague/ The last 2 paragraph's of your linked article: But Israel’s defense will be haunted by the remarks of Dichter and company, who South Africa cites in their ICJ filing. Despite Netanyahu’s plea, they have not stopped their commentary, and on Tuesday, the U.S. State Department singled out two far-right Israeli ministers who have been pushing to resettle Palestinians outside Gaza, blasting their “inflammatory and irresponsible” rhetoric. Netanyahu may thus have cause to regret not bringing his coalition partners to heel more firmly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff the Chef Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 When you're in a hole maybe it is time to stop digging. Rejection of Irresponsible Statements on Resettlement of Palestinians Outside of Gaza https://www.state.gov/rejection-of-irresponsible-statements-on-resettlement-of-palestinians-outside-of-gaza/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 11 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said: The last 2 paragraph's of your linked article: But Israel’s defense will be haunted by the remarks of Dichter and company, who South Africa cites in their ICJ filing. Despite Netanyahu’s plea, they have not stopped their commentary, and on Tuesday, the U.S. State Department singled out two far-right Israeli ministers who have been pushing to resettle Palestinians outside Gaza, blasting their “inflammatory and irresponsible” rhetoric. Netanyahu may thus have cause to regret not bringing his coalition partners to heel more Great that you now acknowledge this is also about Hamas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff the Chef Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 33 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said: Great that you now acknowledge this is also about Hamas I acknowledge nothing about Hamas, where do you get that from? I have no doubt that Israel will bring Hamas up during the Application Instituting Proceedings on the 11th. I suggest you read the full 84 page Application. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 4 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said: I acknowledge nothing about Hamas, where do you get that from? I have no doubt that Israel will bring Hamas up during the Application Instituting Proceedings on the 11th. I suggest you read the full 84 page Application. Oh. So confirmation of Cherry picking from the article quotes and confirmation of ignoring reality. The 84 page report also contains Hamas Oct 7th info. Have you read it? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff the Chef Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 13 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said: Keep it in perspective , its a Court case . Israel has been found guilty , its just a Court case . Courts can and do give not guilty verdicts . You seem to think that a Court cases somehow proves guilt 10 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said: Yes, that was the point that I was making to you , you don't need to make the same point back to me Where does your post make the same point that I posted? My post: It is not up to me or anybody else to determine guilt or innocence at the ICJ, it is up to the Judges. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowtail Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 That Israel is (apparently) being taken to task by the court for what they did post 10/7 seems to beg the question why the court has not taken Palestine to task for what they did on 10/7. Of course, we all know why that it. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 9 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said: Where does your post make the same point that I posted? My post: It is not up to me or anybody else to determine guilt or innocence at the ICJ, it is up to the Judges. Yes, my point was that its only a Court case and Israel hasn't been found guilty of anything . You mentioned Israel being taken to Court ,like it was proof of something 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff the Chef Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 15 minutes ago, Yellowtail said: That Israel is (apparently) being taken to task by the court for what they did post 10/7 seems to beg the question why the court has not taken Palestine to task for what they did on 10/7. Of course, we all know why that it. Do you? Care to explain your take on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 hour ago, Jeff the Chef said: The last 2 paragraph's of your linked article: But Israel’s defense will be haunted by the remarks of Dichter and company, who South Africa cites in their ICJ filing. Despite Netanyahu’s plea, they have not stopped their commentary, and on Tuesday, the U.S. State Department singled out two far-right Israeli ministers who have been pushing to resettle Palestinians outside Gaza, blasting their “inflammatory and irresponsible” rhetoric. Netanyahu may thus have cause to regret not bringing his coalition partners to heel more firmly. Those comments, vile as they are, are not official policy, though. And as there were counter comments, and (ignored) directions to stop making those, it's not much to go on. If this was to be decided on statements made by various leaders and politicians, then the Hamas side got a whole lot more that would justify Israel's actions. It cuts both ways. As far as I understand, the main issue, as per the court thing, is intent. For that, there needs to be clear evidence of policy, chain of command directives and application of commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said: Yes, my point was that its only a Court case and Israel hasn't been found guilty of anything . You mentioned Israel being taken to Court ,like it was proof of something What might happen is that the court may issue an injunction to stop fighting. While you and some others might leap up to point out that the ICJ isn't recognized by Israel or the US, such an order would put a lot of pressure on those 2 countries. Other countries who do recognize the ICJ (the majority by far), will start to reduce diplomatic activity in non compliant countries and issue statements of condemnation. Not about the war but about failure to comply with the order. Edited January 6 by ozimoron 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff the Chef Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 4 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said: Yes, my point was that its only a Court case and Israel hasn't been found guilty of anything . You mentioned Israel being taken to Court ,like it was proof of something As I've said to you before and I'll say it again: It is not up to me or anybody else to determine guilt or innocence at the ICJ, it is up to the Judges. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowtail Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 2 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said: Do you? Care to explain your take on it? yes and no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 hour ago, Jeff the Chef said: When you're in a hole maybe it is time to stop digging. Rejection of Irresponsible Statements on Resettlement of Palestinians Outside of Gaza https://www.state.gov/rejection-of-irresponsible-statements-on-resettlement-of-palestinians-outside-of-gaza/ These far-right/religious coalition elements/partners got their own agenda. It is not necessarily about what's obviously better for Israel, but more to do with their own vision of things. So for them, there is no 'hole'. As Netanyahu's political survival depends on them playing along, he's got little pull over what they say or don't say. The real effective measure taken was excluding them from the War Cabinet, at the price of them running their mouths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 minute ago, Jeff the Chef said: As I've said to you before and I'll say it again: It is not up to me or anybody else to determine guilt or innocence at the ICJ, it is up to the Judges. I did understand what you wrote the first time, there is no need to say it again 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 21 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said: Where does your post make the same point that I posted? My post: It is not up to me or anybody else to determine guilt or innocence at the ICJ, it is up to the Judges. I could swear I saw a post or two, on these very topics announcing Israel's guilt. Maybe I was wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowtail Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Just now, Morch said: I could swear I saw a post or two, on these very topics announcing Israel's guilt. Think? Just now, Morch said: Maybe I was wrong. Fist time for eveything 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 22 minutes ago, Yellowtail said: That Israel is (apparently) being taken to task by the court for what they did post 10/7 seems to beg the question why the court has not taken Palestine to task for what they did on 10/7. Of course, we all know why that it. Palestine (as in the PA) did not do anything on 7/10. If Israel, or any other party, would have liked to try and take them to the ICJ, they could. It was Israel's choice not to, obviously. So no, not sure what you think 'we all know'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff the Chef Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 1 minute ago, Morch said: I could swear I saw a post or two, on these very topics announcing Israel's guilt. Maybe I was wrong. Did you, please show, or we can put it down as more "waffle" from Morch. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 7 minutes ago, ozimoron said: What might happen is that the court may issue an injunction to stop fighting. While you and some others might leap up to point out that the ICJ isn't recognized by Israel or the US, such an order would put a lot of pressure on those 2 countries. Other countries who do recognize the ICJ (the majority by far), will start to reduce diplomatic activity in non compliant countries and issue statements of condemnation. Not about the war but about failure to comply with the order. @ozimoron There are two issues with your post. (a) Whether or not an injunction will be issued remains to be seen, it's far from guaranteed. And it will not happen right away. Legal proceedings take time. (b) The international reaction you allege is not a given, as you present - but what you hope for. As you often do, carriage before the horses, and an (un)healthy dose of imagination, presented as fact. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Morch Posted January 6 Popular Post Share Posted January 6 4 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said: Did you, please show, or we can put it down as more "waffle" from Morch. Seriously? You need an example of posts decrying Israel's guilt on these topics? Too amusing. It's practically the basis of what you and the rest of the anti-Israel brigade are on about day in day out. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bkk Brian Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 42 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said: I acknowledge nothing about Hamas, where do you get that from? I have no doubt that Israel will bring Hamas up during the Application Instituting Proceedings on the 11th. I suggest you read the full 84 page Application. Well have you read it, you asked me but have you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozimoron Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Just now, Bkk Brian said: Well have you read it, you asked me but have you? we can take that as a no. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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