New tax era in Thailand begins as Revenue now shares data with 138 countries within the OECD

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, brianthainess said:

That is below the Tax threshold most of this tax BS is fear mongering unless you are earning more.

The poster doesn't say whether private or state pension. If state pension yes, it's below the UK tax threshold given the level of the Personal Allowance. But it may not be below the level of taxation in Thailand because it is not exempt by treaty and the poster may not have sufficient deductions.

[brianthainess]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The poster doesn't say whether private or state pension. If state pension yes, it's below the UK tax threshold given the level of the Personal Allowance. But it may not be below the level of taxation in Thailand because it is not exempt by treaty and the poster may not have sufficient deductions.

As I said UNLESS you are earning more or maybe I should say if your Income is more, and IF you don't already pay tax on it in the UK.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 1/8/2024 at 7:12 AM, Dan O said:

Read your country's Dual Tax Agreement and you will see many things including most pensions are exempt from dual taxation 

Sorry mate, but implying that those Expats from a DTA country will not be taxed and will not need to lodge a tax return and nothing will change - is very wrong.

 

The DTA each country holds with Thailand, lists exemptions and exclusions, as well as methods agreed to avoid double taxation for persons/companies operating or living in the 2 countries. it does not mean that Thailand will automatically accept that an Expat froma DTA country does not need to lodge a tax return or does not have an obligation to pay income taxes. 

 

Businesses use DTAs every year in every country - in their tax returns  - which are done and lodged by tax experts, lawyers, accountants.

 

Unless the Thai RD gives Expats directions/statements that we are not required to lodge a tax return and do not have to claim exemptions and allowances and exclusions under a DTA (like a company does), then we will have to lodge a tax return. A DTA is not a 'get out of jail' card you can just wave at the Thai RD. 

 

A DTA is something that is used only when a tax return is lodged. And any claim made under a DTA can be accepted or rejected by the Thai RD - they require an 'acceptable' proof of that claim (to them).  Having a DTA is not 'game over' - otherwise all those people avoiding taxes who are from countries with DTAs will still avoid income taxes.  The OECD led change that made Thailand change this rule, is not 'exempt' for people from DTA countries.

 

Yes, a DTA means certain things apply - like Pensions are not to be taxed by Thailand (in most cases) - but that is not automatic - it must be 'claimed'.  Hopefully, Thailand will not require all Expats remitting money into Thailand to lodge a tax return and prove that they do not have to pay income taxes on that money. At the moment the Thai Govt itself and the Thai RD have not released any statements or advice to that effect.         

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 1/8/2024 at 3:54 AM, webfact said:

The Revenue Department of Thailand embraces a new era in tax enforcement, sharing data with 138 countries within the OECD framework. As the government sets an ambitious revenue target of ฿2.2767 trillion for fiscal year 2024, the move aims to combat tax avoidance and elevate economic recovery. Foreign firms, residents and tourists expected to foot more of the bill.

 

I just re-read this statement above - and I am even more 'negative' than I was previously (and yes I have been very negative about this).  Based on that statement, it is very clear that the Thai Revenue Department expects to make foreign firms, foreign residents (Expats)and foreign tourusts pay more income taxes than in the past. 

 

I sure hope that statement was 'lost in translation' because if it was not, then we now know why the Thai RD and the Thai Govt has not responded with assurances to us Expats, despite all the megative social media coverage of this issue - especially on this forum on the youtube vloggers. It very much looks like the Thai Govt has directed the Thai RD to impose income taxes on the 200K-300K Expats living long term in Thailand. 

 

Time to start seriously planning for where to move to, not just talking about it and looking around. As of 30 June 2024 any Expats still living/staying in Thailand since 1 Jan 2024 will become a tax resident and all money remitted into Thailand since January 1 2024 is potenitally taxable.

 

[riclag]

Originally from the states here. Shoeless Joe has some good advice !

For me , going forward , I will wait till the dust settles  .When the new tax law is instituted I will go tax delinquent 

for a year to avoid all the kinks that usually occur with any Thai induced mandatory implantations of rules. One only needs to look at how they handled the inadequacies of online reporting and the covid crisis.

Good Day

 

imop

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

I just re-read this statement above - and I am even more 'negative' than I was previously (and yes I have been very negative about this).  Based on that statement, it is very clear that the Thai Revenue Department expects to make foreign firms, foreign residents (Expats)and foreign tourusts pay more income taxes than in the past. 

 

I sure hope that statement was 'lost in translation' because if it was not, then we now know why the Thai RD and the Thai Govt has not responded with assurances to us Expats, despite all the megative social media coverage of this issue - especially on this forum on the youtube vloggers. It very much looks like the Thai Govt has directed the Thai RD to impose income taxes on the 200K-300K Expats living long term in Thailand. 

 

Time to start seriously planning for where to move to, not just talking about it and looking around. As of 30 June 2024 any Expats still living/staying in Thailand since 1 Jan 2024 will become a tax resident and all money remitted into Thailand since January 1 2024 is potenitally taxable.

 

Just stop and think about it for a moment, what was written is a logical explanation and a distinct probability. It doesn't mean that foreigners are being targeted. It means that the rule that requires foreigners to file a  tax return and pay tax, the rule that was relaxed for many many years, is now being enforced more firmly. Of course that means that some foreigners will have to pay tax where they didn't before but everyone has an obligation to pay tax plus that's a rule of our host country. 

 

And no, this rule is NOT targeted at expats, you know that full well because you've been told many times. The rule change is and always has been targeted at Thai's with assets overseas.

[Burma Bill]

3 hours ago, Highlandman said:

 

Well you should change your name to Cambodia Bill as you're clearly not Burma Bill. You were Thailand Bill before.

 

With respect, I have no intention of changing my name. I have never used Thailand Bill, as you suggest. I chose Burma Bill some years ago because where I lived near Chiang Rai/Phayao in Lanna, I went on regular monthly shopping trips across the border to Tachilek in Burma. I use Burma in protest at the Junta who renamed the country Myanmar. I also made several visits to Burma (Rangoon, Mandalay, Bagan and Hsipaw-Shan State) during the short period of democracy. A wonderful country with welcoming people. I have no intention to change to Cambodia Bill.

[Kinnock]

On 1/8/2024 at 6:54 AM, worrab said:

With your allowances here and the tax ladder, I doubt very much you will have any tax to pay. Plus your proof of having paid tax in UK.

The tax free earning allowances in my home country are much higher than in Thailand, and the taxation % levels are also higher - both due to the higher average salaries in my home country.  

 

So my pensions may not be taxable in UK, but will be above the much lower tax threshold in Thailand.  So if I pay no tax in UK due to local tax laws, I may not be able claim zero tax in Thailand where the threshold is lower.

 

I think this will be an issue for many.

[Dan O]

5 hours ago, Presnock said:

well for sure, the building industry would reap huge profits maybe on all the warehouses to store all the paperwork copies that the Thai govt likes if this comes to pass.  My opinion on what I have to provide for something so simple and is already in a computer data base!

 

Yes I'm always astounded at the mountain of paperwork stored at the Imm office alone in NST along the back wall. And that's a small office.. Somehow they can find your old extension paperwork files fairly quickly too. 

[Dan O]

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Sorry mate, but implying that those Expats from a DTA country will not be taxed and will not need to lodge a tax return and nothing will change - is very wrong.

 

The DTA each country holds with Thailand, lists exemptions and exclusions, as well as methods agreed to avoid double taxation for persons/companies operating or living in the 2 countries. it does not mean that Thailand will automatically accept that an Expat froma DTA country does not need to lodge a tax return or does not have an obligation to pay income taxes. 

 

Businesses use DTAs every year in every country - in their tax returns  - which are done and lodged by tax experts, lawyers, accountants.

 

Unless the Thai RD gives Expats directions/statements that we are not required to lodge a tax return and do not have to claim exemptions and allowances and exclusions under a DTA (like a company does), then we will have to lodge a tax return. A DTA is not a 'get out of jail' card you can just wave at the Thai RD. 

 

A DTA is something that is used only when a tax return is lodged. And any claim made under a DTA can be accepted or rejected by the Thai RD - they require an 'acceptable' proof of that claim (to them).  Having a DTA is not 'game over' - otherwise all those people avoiding taxes who are from countries with DTAs will still avoid income taxes.  The OECD led change that made Thailand change this rule, is not 'exempt' for people from DTA countries.

 

Yes, a DTA means certain things apply - like Pensions are not to be taxed by Thailand (in most cases) - but that is not automatic - it must be 'claimed'.  Hopefully, Thailand will not require all Expats remitting money into Thailand to lodge a tax return and prove that they do not have to pay income taxes on that money. At the moment the Thai Govt itself and the Thai RD have not released any statements or advice to that effect.         

 

Read what I wrote. I never said they don't have to file i said they won't be taxed on some issue and others are exempt. If you are taxed in either country you cant be taxed in both. 

[Dan O]

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

I just re-read this statement above - and I am even more 'negative' than I was previously (and yes I have been very negative about this).  Based on that statement, it is very clear that the Thai Revenue Department expects to make foreign firms, foreign residents (Expats)and foreign tourusts pay more income taxes than in the past. 

 

I sure hope that statement was 'lost in translation' because if it was not, then we now know why the Thai RD and the Thai Govt has not responded with assurances to us Expats, despite all the megative social media coverage of this issue - especially on this forum on the youtube vloggers. It very much looks like the Thai Govt has directed the Thai RD to impose income taxes on the 200K-300K Expats living long term in Thailand. 

 

Time to start seriously planning for where to move to, not just talking about it and looking around. As of 30 June 2024 any Expats still living/staying in Thailand since 1 Jan 2024 will become a tax resident and all money remitted into Thailand since January 1 2024 is potenitally taxable.

 

You should first read up on what the OECD  is and what they do. You may be overestimating their role and what they do.  For what Thailand does or doesn't do although I'm sure they will adapt or try to some if the methodology OECD uses and offers to shares. 

[bradiston]

4 hours ago, Expat68 said:

Could be wrong but if you have health insurance, you can also claim for that. My company has just sent the tax certificate to the tax office 

Doesn't it have to be with a Thai insurer to get the allowance? Or at least, an insurer based in Thailand. Anyone know what that means?

[Mike Lister]

32 minutes ago, bradiston said:

Doesn't it have to be with a Thai insurer to get the allowance? Or at least, an insurer based in Thailand. Anyone know what that means?

Yes. The premiums must be paid to a Thai company in Thailand. I have been through this loop personally. But it sounds as though that poster works for a Thai company who supplies him with health insurance so somehow the tax benefit is passed back from the company to the employee.

Edited January 9 by Mike Lister

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, Dan O said:

Read what I wrote. I never said they don't have to file i said they won't be taxed on some issue and others are exempt. If you are taxed in either country you cant be taxed in both. 

I hear you - but what you wrote could be read by someone who does not know what you did not say, and thiunk it means that they dont have to file a tax return under a DTA (if that is required by Thai RD).

 

Your last claim is wrong for things that are taxabale in both countries.  Where the 'host' country has taken taxes, those paid taxes can be used as a credit, against what taxes may be due in the country where a person is resident. You can be taxed in both countries for some things - but not for things specifically excluded in that DTA - like Govt Pensions. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

4 hours ago, riclag said:

Originally from the states here. Shoeless Joe has some good advice !

For me , going forward , I will wait till the dust settles  .When the new tax law is instituted I will go tax delinquent 

for a year to avoid all the kinks that usually occur with any Thai induced mandatory implantations of rules. One only needs to look at how they handled the inadequacies of online reporting and the covid crisis.

Good Day

Well said mate - and a totally rational and logical statement about the illogal and irrational 'thing' that is the Thailand Bureacracy and Government. May I add to your list - cannabis reform, TAT and their predictions,  annual extensions, health insurance, tourist tax on arrival, building new airport buildings, roads and monorails, dealing with the smoke problems, the last election, and ........... there is so much more, but enough for now. This place is a totally disorganised rabble of rampant corruption and nepotism - the odds of them getting this new tax rule correct and not absolutely screing it up - are higher than Man Utd winning the Champions League this year.  Plan well folks and be ready - who knows how this will end up - could be great (through sheer luck), and it could be an absolute clusterphar.......... 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Just stop and think about it for a moment, what was written is a logical explanation and a distinct probability. It doesn't mean that foreigners are being targeted. It means that the rule that requires foreigners to file a  tax return and pay tax, the rule that was relaxed for many many years, is now being enforced more firmly. Of course that means that some foreigners will have to pay tax where they didn't before but everyone has an obligation to pay tax plus that's a rule of our host country. 

 

And no, this rule is NOT targeted at expats, you know that full well because you've been told many times. The rule change is and always has been targeted at Thai's with assets overseas.

If you were talking about women I would call you a simp Mike.  I will point out that very few Expats are happy to pay income taxes in a country that treats them like Thailand does. If they offered me residency (not full citizenship) in an easier to get and realistic format (like my Thai wife when she was living in Australia), gave me full legal rights (like you know who), gave me medical services (like you know who), did not require 3 monthly reporting to Police and annual begging/requests to stay (like you know who never had to), same pricing for everything (like you know who), and so many other rights and services available to all Thais, who pay or dont pay income taxes, then I would be happy to pay income taxes - mate.

 

Yes - that statement clearly states that they expect foreign companies, residents (expats), and tourists, 'to foot more of the bill'.  Wake up Mike - Thailand wants Expats to pay even more taxes than they do now, which is way more than the average Thai (VAT, Sales excise, Customs duty, etc.), and charge them extra for all Government services provided to them (Parks, Hospitals, etc etc) - but will give them nothing for that. If this was a Government wide campaign to provide Expats with benefits in return for taking more of our money as income taxes, then I would be more positive about this.

 

But like so many other Expats who have 'put up' with all the inequity and unfairness dished out, because of the many advantages of living in Thailand including paying no income taxes, this is really leaving me with a bad taste about Thailand as a place to live. And please dont be an ignorant idiot and say 'then leave' - because that is what myself and many other Expats will do if they impose income taxes on me. 

 

As I have said  many times - I have calculated that I have no income tax due to Thailand RD. But how do I know that will be accepted - what happens if they disagree - what idiot will bring in 5-10 Million Baht in a year to buy a property and a new car on this basis?? Get real Mike - this is a clusterphar...  

Edited January 9 by TroubleandGrumpy

[Dan O]

21 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I hear you - but what you wrote could be read by someone who does not know what you did not say, and thiunk it means that they dont have to file a tax return under a DTA (if that is required by Thai RD).

 

Your last claim is wrong for things that are taxabale in both countries.  Where the 'host' country has taken taxes, those paid taxes can be used as a credit, against what taxes may be due in the country where a person is resident. You can be taxed in both countries for some things - but not for things specifically excluded in that DTA - like Govt Pensions. 

Your name says it all about your attitude. If you wish to "read" something else into what I wrote tgats on you but do t try and claim that I said that. 

 

Your claim is also an exaggeration as you can not be taxed on the same item in both countries and let it stay like that. You are correct in that using a tax thats prepaid on one item in one country would be used as a credit against the same taxable item in another country.  So there is no dual tax. so again dont misquote me.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

If you were talking about women I would call you a simp Mike.  I will point out that very few Expats are happy to pay income taxes in a country that treats them like Thailand does. If they offered me residency (not full citizenship) in an easier to get and realistic format (like my Thai wife when she was living in Australia), gave me full legal rights (like you know who), gave me medical services (like you know who), did not require 3 monthly reporting to Police and annual begging/requests to stay (like you know who never had to), same pricing for everything (like you know who), and so many other rights and services available to all Thais, who pay or dont pay income taxes, then I would be happy to pay income taxes - mate.

 

Yes - that statement clearly states that they expect foreign companies, residents (expats), and tourists, 'to foot more of the bill'.  Wake up Mike - Thailand wants Expats to pay even more taxes than they do now, which is way more than the average Thai (VAT, Sales excise, Customs duty, etc.), and charge them extra for all Government services provided to them (Parks, Hospitals, etc etc) - but will give them nothing for that. If this was a Government wide campaign to provide Expats with benefits in return for taking more of our money as income taxes, then I would be more positive about this.

 

But like so many other Expats who have 'put up' with all the inequity and unfairness dished out, because of the many advantages of living in Thailand including paying no income taxes, this is really leaving me with a bad taste about Thailand as a place to live. And please dont be an ignorant idiot and say 'then leave' - because that is what myself and many other Expats will do if they impose income taxes on me. 

 

As I have said  many times - I have calculated that I have no income tax due to Thailand RD. But how do I know that will be accepted - what happens if they disagree - what idiot will bring in 5-10 Million Baht in a year to buy a property and a new car on this basis?? Get real Mike - this is a clusterphar...  

I can't read page long rants, if you have a question or a point, make it in two sentences or it won't get read, I simply don't have the time.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

4 minutes ago, Dan O said:

Your name says it all about your attitude. If you wish to "read" something else into what I wrote tgats on you but do t try and claim that I said that. 

 

Your claim is also an exaggeration as you can not be taxed on the same item in both countries and let it stay like that. You are correct in that using a tax thats prepaid on one item in one country would be used as a credit against the same taxable item in another country.  So there is no dual tax. so again dont misquote me.

Get real Danny Boy and grow up - part of which is admitting when you are wrong. You were and are wrong. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I can't read page long rants, if you have a question or a point, make it in two sentences or it won't get read, I simply don't have the time.

That was me laughing Mike. You remind me of the bloke that throws the two coins up in the air on Anzac Day.

[Dan O]

12 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

That was me laughing Mike. You remind me of the bloke that throws the two coins up in the air on Anzac Day.

Sorry but thats your twisted interpretation not what I wrote,  which your intittled too even when you are incorrect. Just don't misquote me while your trolling. You can move on now as we are done now

[TroubleandGrumpy]

3 minutes ago, Dan O said:

Sorry but thats your twisted interpretation not what I wrote,  which your intittled too even when you are incorrect. Just don't misquote me while your trolling. You can move on now as we are done now

Mate - you have serious issues and need help. That response of mine you quoted was to Mike not yourself. Get a grip - relax - and then move along yourself mate.  

 

No wonder so many of us avoid other Expats in the streets. We saw a bloke today and he looked very weird and strange - and it is clear you are the same.  

Edited January 9 by TroubleandGrumpy

[worrab]

3 hours ago, Kinnock said:

So my pensions may not be taxable in UK, but will be above the much lower tax threshold in Thailand.  So if I pay no tax in UK due to local tax laws, I may not be able claim zero tax in Thailand where the threshold is lower.

So here is the table of taxation rates and allowances. Zero tax could be possible?

 

Taxable Income per year(Baht) Tax rate

0 – 150,000 Exempt

150,000 – 300,000 5%

300,000 – 500,000 10%

500,000 – 750,000 15%

750,000 – 1,000,000 20%

1,000,000 – 2,000,000 25%

2,000,000 – 4,000,000 30%

Over 4,000,000 35%

 

 

a. Personal Allowance for self - 60,000

b. Personal Allowance for wife - 60,000

c. Over age 65 years exemption - 190,000

d. 50% of pension income received, up to 100k - 100,000

e. In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, worrab said:

So here is the table of taxation rates and allowances. Zero tax could be possible?

 

Taxable Income per year(Baht) Tax rate

0 – 150,000 Exempt

150,000 – 300,000 5%

300,000 – 500,000 10%

500,000 – 750,000 15%

750,000 – 1,000,000 20%

1,000,000 – 2,000,000 25%

2,000,000 – 4,000,000 30%

Over 4,000,000 35%

 

 

a. Personal Allowance for self - 60,000

b. Personal Allowance for wife - 60,000

c. Over age 65 years exemption - 190,000

d. 50% of pension income received, up to 100k - 100,000

e. In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax

Strongly suggest you read the thread, a simple tax guide.

[Yumthai]

21 minutes ago, worrab said:

2,000,000 – 5,000,000 30%

Over 5,000,000 35%

 

[Purdey]

A wider tax base will help the government but they had no willpower to do it. Now they have expanded to the online e-commerce businesses.

https://thethaiger.com/news/national/thai-online-vendors-required-to-file-taxes-from-2024-as-new-directive-kicks-in?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=thai-online-vendors-required-to-file-taxes-from-2024-as-new-directive-kicks-in

[CashMoon]

I'm thinking of sending $60k from my savings in my country to my Thailand account to buy a car. Are they entitled to tax on the $60k I will send? 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

2 minutes ago, CashMoon said:

I'm thinking of sending $60k from my savings in my country to my Thailand account to buy a car. Are they entitled to tax on the $60k I will send? 

Yes but only if that money is deemed to be income earned and was earned after 1 Jan 2024.

It looks like you will have to lodge a tax return in 2025 and state that it is not income, but dont ask me how you would prove that it is not - maybe Mike knows. @Mike Lister

[CashMoon]

4 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Yes but only if that money is deemed to be income earned and was earned after 1 Jan 2024.

It looks like you will have to lodge a tax return in 2025 and state that it is not income, but dont ask me how you would prove that it is not - maybe Mike knows. @Mike Lister

 

I decided to limit my expenses by half. I'm also canceling my car buying plan. I won't buy a house either. I also spend more than 1 million bahts a year. For me, paying 25% tax means never setting foot in Thailand again. They seem to have quickly forgotten the pandemic times. 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

7 minutes ago, CashMoon said:

I decided to limit my expenses by half. I'm also canceling my car buying plan. I won't buy a house either. I also spend more than 1 million bahts a year. For me, paying 25% tax means never setting foot in Thailand again. They seem to have quickly forgotten the pandemic times. 

A lot of us feel the same. But I am still here and will wait until this thing pans out - despite being extremely angry about it too.  Hopefully in 2024 it will all become clear one way or the other.