Provisional Decision Today: ICJ Weighs Emergency Measures Amid Allegations of Genocide in Gaza

[Nick Carter icp]

24 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

 

The fact that all polling that I can find prior to the conflict on October 7th shows that Palestinians did not want Hamas in charge speaks volumes. The fact they have not had a chance to elect new leaders in over 18 years speaks volumes.

 

 

 

   What should the Palestinians do to have a regime change and get rid of Hamas ?

How should they achieve their goals ?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

 

And the right of return was a key part of the demands in the Oslo accords... this is what they want to bring peace. This was one of the many reasons Arrafat declined - not only because they would have very limited right to return (I think 5000 was the figure?).

 

Hamas were actually against the peaceful protests, but still the Palestinians did it. Showing they want peace, and ignoring Hamas. It was also a march to demand an end to the occupation and blockade of the Gaza strip.

 

It would not mean the end of Israel at all! This is another lie perpetuated by those who would offer fear. Israel would still have twice as many Jewish residents than Arabs, even if every single person in the Gaza strip moved to Israel. Note, not every single person in Gaza is a refugee of Israel, I think the figure is around 65%.

 

@Brickleberry

 

 

Your comment was about 70% of the Gazans not happy with Hamas rule. I asked you if there were any protests or something of the sort regarding that. You came back with a waffle about these 'right of return' protests.

 

 

There was no 'right of return' agreed upon in the Oslo Accords, nor in any of the other agreements after that. At most, it was discussed as a symbolic thing with very limited numbers of returnees involved. Arafat declined what, exactly? The Oslo Accords were signed.

 

The 'right of return' per se (not the mini-version mentioned above) is not about peace, but about turning Israel into Palestine. You have no notion of what it implies, what it entails. You're just copy pasting headlines, memes while being out of touch with how these communities 'work' or interact.

 

About the protests - you have no idea what you're talking about. The original idea came from one group of students/activists which weren't Hamas affiliated, and that got traction with other similar groups. They were led, or guided or whatever by several people who had some inkling (through more open minds, through the benefit of education outside the strip) and framed this according to Western notions, or rather - what would play well in the West. Hamas initially opposed this, the way it comes down on any suspected political opposition. Then someone with half a brain got the notion of co-opting the effort, and before you know it - budgets, facilities, services and whatnot. Plus Hamas representatives on planning groups, and later Hamas men simply taking over and that was that. All this - second hand information, from one of the people involved. Not exactly a friend (differences being what they are), but someone who could argue more reasonably than most of you wannabes. Presumed dead now, by the way. Tried to evacuate to the south with the wife and the kids. Stopped to take a dump, rockets launched from nearby, Israeli airstrike following and that was that.

 

The protests were designed and planned as peaceful, describing them as such in the face of evidence is a choice. In reality they weren't. There was much lamenting of what this has become at the time. Also it was one of them times when I was actually in Israel, and scored me a tour to the border with a reporter group. I was near enough to get a rather clear idea of things, thanks - no need for you 'explanations'.

 

What you're citing is the goals as set down by the original organizers. As far as I know, all but one have nothing to do with Hamas to this day. Betrayed, hijacked, stabbed in the back and so forth were common comments during and afterwards. There was nothing about storming the fences, nothing about IED's, nothing about urging people to rush at the border. This was all Hamas stuff.

 

Now kindly, address my question regarding protests or any significant political/social actions in line with the poll figures you tout.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Isn't it normal and regular for Countries to have their Embassy in the Capital city (of the other Country) ?

   It would be questioning Israels choice of their own Capital city to have an Embassy elsewhere 

 

Jerusalem's status is not universally accepted. Most Embassies in Israel are located in Tel Aviv.

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

 

 I am engaging in a topic i care deeply about. Thousands of Palestinians are imprisoned by Israel, hundreds of women + children.

 

For someone who picks out every little detail in others posts, you don't ever seem to admit when you are wrong. For instance, the ICJ cannot rule against Hamas because it is not a country.

 

 

I don't see you as 'caring' that much, but as obsessed with bashing Israel on every opportunity.

 

This is not about 'every little detail' - there are multiple posts in which you are presenting wrong facts, insisting on them and so on. I just gave a few recent examples, this goes back to when you started posting on these topics. As I recall, I even make a comment about it being a 'trend' (in reply to one of your 'apologies' about being wrong).

 

Hamas was not a side to this legal process anyway. Again, the court made it clear how it felt about Hamas's actions - you try to minimize it.

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

 

 I am engaging in a topic i care deeply about. Thousands of Palestinians are imprisoned by Israel, hundreds of women + children.

 

.

 

 

   Just a little reminder that there are still Israeli hostages being held , including a baby who just turned one years old  , their lives are in extreme  danger  , lets not forget about them in a topic that you deeply care about 

[Morch]

38 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

I am sorry, but that is ludicrous. I did not try to paint Hamas as being 'non-Palestinian' - but they are clearly not 'the Palestinian people' I and many others refer to. When I refer to the Palestinian people, I mean any citizen who is not a member of Hamas' terrorist, military brigades - Israel puts the number at around 30,000 Hamas terrorists. In actual fact, many countries only regard the military wing of Hamas as a terrorist organization. The political wing still has relations with other western states. 

 

The fact that all polling that I can find prior to the conflict on October 7th shows that Palestinians did not want Hamas in charge speaks volumes. The fact they have not had a chance to elect new leaders in over 18 years speaks volumes.

 

This is exactly what the court case is about, and why Israel lost its case. There must be a distinction between the Palestinian people and the military wing of Hamas.

 

Whilst it is true that Hamas does not separate civilian deaths from militant deaths, that does not mean they are the same. We certainly shouldn't be copying the terrorists in any case.

 

@Brickleberry

 

Hamas is one of the two largest parties/organizations in Palestinian lives. You are trying to paint it as being something more detached. It simply isn't. There was no claim that they represent, or that they are all the Palestinian people. But a significant part of? Of course.

 

As for Hamas's designation as a terrorist group, have a ball:

 

Terrorist designation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Terrorist_designation

 

(note that post 7/10 there were further moves to designate Hamas as such, or to widen the scope of designations, these things take time).

 

I don't give a hoot about what you can find, or pretend to find. The fact stands that there were times Hamas was popular and times when it wasn't. It didn't win that elections back when for being shunned, it didn't remain an issue for the PA in the West Bank if it had no popular backing. Palestinian positions not being fixed is not a matter of discussion, it's how things are everywhere. Plus you can look up the older topics if you 'really care', not going to spend energy on trolls.

 

[Brickleberry]

21 minutes ago, Morch said:

Now kindly, address my question regarding protests or any significant political/social actions in line with the poll figures you tout.

 

The poll figures I referenced earlier were in response to another member's comments that Palestinians supported Hamas prior to Oct 7th. 70% of them did not, and wanted the PA in charge. This is a fact.

 

There were also demonstrations and protests in the Gaza strip in 2023 against Hamas, thousands took to the streets. The main issues were poor living conditions and I think something to do with a $15 deduction from allowances of the poorest in Gaza. Unfortunately not anything to do with two states, but it shows the discontent with their rule.

 

The other poll figure I quoted stated they wanted a 2 two state solution, and a permanent end to the conflict. 50%. completely relevant to show Palestinians do not want this war, they want it to end.

[Bkk Brian]

1 hour ago, Brickleberry said:

 

My results are from July 2023 - the most recent prior to the conflict.

 

My comment on an old thread was made when I was a bit drunk... I am happy to admit i was wrong in that regard.

Thanks for letting us know you post on here when drunk. This will sober you up if you've had a tipple now though

 

UK says it has ‘considerable concerns’ about ICJ ruling, rejects genocide accusation

“We respect the role and independence of the ICJ. However… we have considerable concerns about this case, which is not helpful in the goal of achieving a sustainable ceasefire,” a Foreign Office spokesperson said in a statement.

“Israel has the right to defend itself against Hamas in line with IHL [international humanitarian law],” the spokesperson added.

“Our view is that Israel’s actions in Gaza cannot be described as genocide, which is why we thought South Africa’s decision to bring the case was wrong and provocative.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-says-it-has-considerable-concerns-about-icj-ruling-rejects-genocide-accusation

[Brickleberry]

3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Just a little reminder that there are still Israeli hostages being held , including a baby who just turned one years old  , their lives are in extreme  danger  , lets not forget about them in a topic that you deeply care about 

 

That is dreadful, of course I feel for the poor baby and its mother.

 

That being said, that is not the topic we are discussing today, so it is a bit disingenuous to bring up this as a point. Of course the hostages should be free. So should the Palestinian people, their lives are also in extreme danger. Palestinians have been prisoners in Gaza for decades.

 

On the extreme danger front, the hostages are far more likely to die from Israeli indiscriminate bombing, or IDF soldiers shooting them as they come out. Another reason why Israel should change strategy.

[Brickleberry]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I don't give a hoot about what you can find, or pretend to find. The fact stands that there were times Hamas was popular and times when it wasn't. It didn't win that elections back when for being shunned, it didn't remain an issue for the PA in the West Bank if it had no popular backing. Palestinian positions not being fixed is not a matter of discussion, it's how things are everywhere. Plus you can look up the older topics if you 'really care', not going to spend energy on trolls.

 

 

Pretend to find. Nice. It was clearly referenced with the link supplied. It was an American poll done for The Washington Institute. You don't have to believe them, but that puts you in the same boat as Trump... ignoring the facts right in front of you while proclaiming to the world you are right.

 

Notice that you said you would find a poll prior to oct 7th that would prove Palestinians supported Hamas... that was 2 hours ago. Still waiting.

[Bkk Brian]

4 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

That is dreadful, of course I feel for the poor baby and its mother.

 

That being said, that is not the topic we are discussing today, so it is a bit disingenuous to bring up this as a point. Of course the hostages should be free. So should the Palestinian people, their lives are also in extreme danger. Palestinians have been prisoners in Gaza for decades.

 

On the extreme danger front, the hostages are far more likely to die from Israeli indiscriminate bombing, or IDF soldiers shooting them as they come out. Another reason why Israel should change strategy.

That being said, that is not the topic we are discussing today, so it is a bit disingenuous to bring up this as a point.

 

Of course its the topic, Hamas were ordered to release all hostages, it was not just provisional orders for Israel.....

 

130 or so hostages, many of the girls sexually abused. 

[Morch]

39 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

This is why it is impossible to engage with you. You just make stuff up. I am clearly talking about the same thing in the post you referenced.

 

I did not say Hamas were only in the tunnels. Again, completely making stuff up! Then again, it is so much easier to do this than to engage in anything substantive. I actually talked about their guerilla warfare tactics, and how Israel can't bomb every building just because a Hamas pops off a few shots with his piddly little rifle, and scurries back down into his tunnel to the underground 'city' Israel keeps banging on about.

 

I did not say that I assume all bombs were supposed to target tunnels. Again, completely making things up. I actually said the bombs are targeting the entire Gaza strip to make it unlivable.

 

Logic also dictates that if you warn the area that they will bomb all of the buildings, then the enemy will not be there when you bomb it. So what is the point of destroying almost half of all housing in Gaza - population over 2 million, when there are only 30,000 Hamas members? You are clearly just trying to bomb all of the buildings and make it unliveable.

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/world-bank-report-finds-45-of-residential-buildings-in-gaza-ruined-beyond-repair/

 

 

 

Your final point is just unbelievable.

 

 

@Brickleberry

 

Well 'impossible' doesn't seem to be it, since you keep 'discussing' things. I do not make things up, you simply have a habit of posting rubbish and then having a rough time waffling.

 

Israel does not bomb every building because Hamas pops out. That's kinda rich coming from someone who complains about making things up. As for that 'piddy little rifle' - that would be you trying to minimize Hamas again - kinda awkward considering they managed a rather successful ambush just a few days ago, resulting in over 20 IDF soldiers dead.

 

Your references to these bombs being used referenced only one semi-credible option: tunnels. Israel does not simply blow all buildings around for the sake of it (that wouldn't even make military sense), nor does it throw a bomb like that on every Hamas guy sticking his head out. So these two were ignored as being bogus - which they are. What you allege as Israel's motivation is not supported by anything much other than opinion.

 

As for the warnings, you don't get it - from a purely military point of view, warning are abhorrent. But the way things are, what with international law, PR and civilians in combat zones, there's little choice. A USA official actually said that he doubts whether the USA military would have taken the same steps. The point is not to let Hamas return and retake positions, deny them the ability to flank troops from the rear or sides via tunnels, to destroy booby-trapped buildings, facilities and caches. You see only what your ideological bent allows, I'm dealing with how a military operates. 

 

What, exactly, is 'unbelievable' about my last point? If anything, that would be the most solid one.

 

[Nick Carter icp]

6 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

That is dreadful, of course I feel for the poor baby and its mother.

 

That being said, that is not the topic we are discussing today, so it is a bit disingenuous to bring up this as a point. Of course the hostages should be free. So should the Palestinian people, their lives are also in extreme danger. Palestinians have been prisoners in Gaza for decades.

 

On the extreme danger front, the hostages are far more likely to die from Israeli indiscriminate bombing, or IDF soldiers shooting them as they come out. Another reason why Israel should change strategy.

 

   As you state that you care so much about the topic, from your posts it sounded like you just care about the Palestinians and not caring about Israelis 

   BTW, why do you take such an interest in this topic ?

There are various wars going on all over the World and there are people in a worse predicament than the Palestinians , there are millions of stateless people in Thailand even .

   Why do you take such an interest in the Israel/Palestinian  disagreement ?

[Neeranam]

45 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@Brickleberry

 

 

Your comment was about 70% of the Gazans not happy with Hamas rule. I asked you if there were any protests or something of the sort regarding that. You came back with a waffle about these 'right of return' protests.

 

 

There was no 'right of return' agreed upon in the Oslo Accords, nor in any of the other agreements after that. At most, it was discussed as a symbolic thing with very limited numbers of returnees involved. Arafat declined what, exactly? The Oslo Accords were signed.

 

The 'right of return' per se (not the mini-version mentioned above) is not about peace, but about turning Israel into Palestine. You have no notion of what it implies, what it entails. You're just copy pasting headlines, memes while being out of touch with how these communities 'work' or interact.

 

About the protests - you have no idea what you're talking about. The original idea came from one group of students/activists which weren't Hamas affiliated, and that got traction with other similar groups. They were led, or guided or whatever by several people who had some inkling (through more open minds, through the benefit of education outside the strip) and framed this according to Western notions, or rather - what would play well in the West. Hamas initially opposed this, the way it comes down on any suspected political opposition. Then someone with half a brain got the notion of co-opting the effort, and before you know it - budgets, facilities, services and whatnot. Plus Hamas representatives on planning groups, and later Hamas men simply taking over and that was that. All this - second hand information, from one of the people involved. Not exactly a friend (differences being what they are), but someone who could argue more reasonably than most of you wannabes. Presumed dead now, by the way. Tried to evacuate to the south with the wife and the kids. Stopped to take a dump, rockets launched from nearby, Israeli airstrike following and that was that.

 

The protests were designed and planned as peaceful, describing them as such in the face of evidence is a choice. In reality they weren't. There was much lamenting of what this has become at the time. Also it was one of them times when I was actually in Israel, and scored me a tour to the border with a reporter group. I was near enough to get a rather clear idea of things, thanks - no need for you 'explanations'.

 

What you're citing is the goals as set down by the original organizers. As far as I know, all but one have nothing to do with Hamas to this day. Betrayed, hijacked, stabbed in the back and so forth were common comments during and afterwards. There was nothing about storming the fences, nothing about IED's, nothing about urging people to rush at the border. This was all Hamas stuff.

 

Now kindly, address my question regarding protests or any significant political/social actions in line with the poll figures you tout.

Source please. I doubt you wrote that. 

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

The poll figures I referenced earlier were in response to another member's comments that Palestinians supported Hamas prior to Oct 7th. 70% of them did not, and wanted the PA in charge. This is a fact.

 

There were also demonstrations and protests in the Gaza strip in 2023 against Hamas, thousands took to the streets. The main issues were poor living conditions and I think something to do with a $15 deduction from allowances of the poorest in Gaza. Unfortunately not anything to do with two states, but it shows the discontent with their rule.

 

The other poll figure I quoted stated they wanted a 2 two state solution, and a permanent end to the conflict. 50%. completely relevant to show Palestinians do not want this war, they want it to end.

 

@Brickleberry

 

The way you keep harping on it, one might think that some revolution or coup was in the making. In effect, Hamas is solidly in place for many years now, despite several rounds of fighting, a whole lot of Palestinian death, destruction, poverty and oppression. On 6/10, a whole lot of Palestinians from Gaza crossed over to Israel on Hamas's heels, and partook in that orgy of murder, rape, destruction etc. Other crowds were celebrating things in the Gaza Strip - giving a 'warm' welcome to the hostages brought in.

 

There was no serious effort by Gazans to oust Hamas. THAT's a fact.

 

Y

[Neeranam]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

s for that 'piddy little rifle' - that would be you trying to minimize Hamas again - kinda awkward considering they managed a rather successful ambush just a few days ago, resulting in over 20 IDF soldiers dead.

Are you seriously saying that the deaths of 20 IDF is on a par with all the dead civilians in Gaza?

 

[Yellowtail]

9 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Pretend to find. Nice. It was clearly referenced with the link supplied. It was an American poll done for The Washington Institute. You don't have to believe them, but that puts you in the same boat as Trump... ignoring the facts right in front of you while proclaiming to the world you are right.

 

Notice that you said you would find a poll prior to oct 7th that would prove Palestinians supported Hamas... that was 2 hours ago. Still waiting.

Here's one from after October 7th. 

What Palestinians Really Think of Hamas | Foreign Affairs

 

From the link: 

How much trust do you have in the Hamas-led government? 

A great deal of faith:  ~12%

Quite a lot:                  ~17%

Not a lot:                    ~23%

                                   ~52%

Not at all:                   ~45%

 

So less than half have no faith in the Hamas-led government.

 

More from the link: 

Which party, if any, do you feel closest to?

Fatah                                     ~30%

Hamas                                   ~27%

Palestinian Islamic jihad        ~7%                

Other,                                     ~14%

No party                                 ~15%

Don't know                              ~7%

 

So combined, Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad parties are the largest voting bloc in Palestine, and both are terrorist groups, and both want to exterminate all the Jews in Israel, after raping many of them.

 

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

That is dreadful, of course I feel for the poor baby and its mother.

 

That being said, that is not the topic we are discussing today, so it is a bit disingenuous to bring up this as a point. Of course the hostages should be free. So should the Palestinian people, their lives are also in extreme danger. Palestinians have been prisoners in Gaza for decades.

 

On the extreme danger front, the hostages are far more likely to die from Israeli indiscriminate bombing, or IDF soldiers shooting them as they come out. Another reason why Israel should change strategy.

 

@Brickleberry

 

The mother is a hostage as well. So is the father. And the brother. Grandparents murdered.

 

Oh, it's a bit 'disingenuous'? It's 'off topic'? Like half of what you post on here is not? Them 'right of return' protests are more on topic? Your nonsense 'ignore' declarations? Yeah...let's not talk about the hostages. Easier. You care deeply. Whatever.

 

Far more likely? How would you know that? Are they alive? Were they killed right away? Talk about 'unbelievable'.

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Are you seriously saying that the deaths of 20 IDF is on a par with all the dead civilians in Gaza?

 

To the parents of those soldiers, sure.

[Yellowtail]

I like this (I think) Victor Davis Hanson Quote:

 

“Accordingly, Jews and Israel now supposedly enjoy toxic white privilege. They are libeled as veritable white supremacists illegitimately in the Middle East to colonize “Palestine,” and as European imperialists picking up the mantle of the earlier 19th century British and French—as if a prior 400 years of Ottoman imperialism in the Middle East never occurred.”

[Nick Carter icp]

19 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Pretend to find. Nice. It was clearly referenced with the link supplied. It was an American poll done for The Washington Institute. You don't have to believe them, but that puts you in the same boat as Trump... ignoring the facts right in front of you while proclaiming to the world you are right.

 

Notice that you said you would find a poll prior to oct 7th that would prove Palestinians supported Hamas... that was 2 hours ago. Still waiting.

 

   Heres a poll result for oyu 

 

 

Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises

 

 

JERUSALEM, Dec 13 (Reuters) - Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found.

Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far, while 22% said it was "incorrect". The remainder were undecided or gave no answer.

 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/

 

 

[Brickleberry]

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Here's one from after October 7th. 

What Palestinians Really Think of Hamas | Foreign Affairs

 

From the link: 

How much trust do you have in the Hamas-led government? 

A great deal of faith:  ~12%

Quite a lot:                  ~17%

Not a lot:                    ~23%

                                   ~52%

Not at all:                   ~45%

 

So less than half have no faith in the Hamas-led government.

 

More from the link: 

Which party, if any, do you feel closest to?

Fatah                                     ~30%

Hamas                                   ~27%

Palestinian Islamic jihad        ~7%                

Other,                                     ~14%

No party                                 ~15%

Don't know                              ~7%

 

So combined, Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad parties are the largest voting bloc in Palestine, and both are terrorist groups, and both want to exterminate all the Jews in Israel, after raping many of them.

 

 

This is after Oct 7. Not relevant. One of the other members in this forum a few hours ago said Palestinians supported Hamas as if that justified 26,000 dead and counting.

[Brickleberry]

1 minute ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Heres a poll result for oyu 

 

 

Poll shows Palestinians back Oct. 7 attack on Israel, support for Hamas rises

 

 

JERUSALEM, Dec 13 (Reuters) - Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found.

Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was "correct" given its outcome so far, while 22% said it was "incorrect". The remainder were undecided or gave no answer.

 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/

 

 

Do I have to repeat myself again? This is after the 7th. Not relevant to the discussion.

[Morch]

17 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Pretend to find. Nice. It was clearly referenced with the link supplied. It was an American poll done for The Washington Institute. You don't have to believe them, but that puts you in the same boat as Trump... ignoring the facts right in front of you while proclaiming to the world you are right.

 

Notice that you said you would find a poll prior to oct 7th that would prove Palestinians supported Hamas... that was 2 hours ago. Still waiting.

 

@Brickleberry

 

Like the rest of the wannabe 'pro-palestinian' posters - when can't deal with things, chop the post.

 

You implied that the poll you linked was the only one you 'can find' - this. It's nonsense. This was something debated heatedly much earlier on, with all sorts of polls linked. You claim there is but one poll? Whatever. As for making things up - I did not say I do not believe them, I said there are many polls and that they show different things, and can be analyzed/interpreted in different ways. I did not say 'I would find' - I pointed out to the fact such were linked. I'm not going to dig through them on your behalf, considering you tend to disregard facts anyway, or move the goalposts.

 

Again, was the sentiment described in the poll you cited have any actual relevant manifestation? I don't think so.

[Brickleberry]

14 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@Brickleberry

 

The way you keep harping on it, one might think that some revolution or coup was in the making. In effect, Hamas is solidly in place for many years now, despite several rounds of fighting, a whole lot of Palestinian death, destruction, poverty and oppression. On 6/10, a whole lot of Palestinians from Gaza crossed over to Israel on Hamas's heels, and partook in that orgy of murder, rape, destruction etc. Other crowds were celebrating things in the Gaza Strip - giving a 'warm' welcome to the hostages brought in.

 

There was no serious effort by Gazans to oust Hamas. THAT's a fact.

 

Y

 

When do civilians ever take down the military? 

[coolcarer]

29 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

That is dreadful, of course I feel for the poor baby and its mother.

 

That being said, that is not the topic we are discussing today, so it is a bit disingenuous to bring up this as a point. Of course the hostages should be free. So should the Palestinian people, their lives are also in extreme danger. Palestinians have been prisoners in Gaza for decades.

 

On the extreme danger front, the hostages are far more likely to die from Israeli indiscriminate bombing, or IDF soldiers shooting them as they come out. Another reason why Israel should change strategy.

You may want to dismiss the hostages in these discussions but ICJ made sure they are part and parcel of the rulings. Your defection on Israel’s responsibility is vile.

 

2. Notably, the Court has emphasized that “all parties to the conflict in the Gaza Strip are bound by international humanitarian law”, which certainly includes Hamas. The Court has also stated that it “is gravely concerned about the fate of the hostages abducted during the attack on Israel on 7 October 2023 and held since then by Hamas and other armed groups, and calls for their immediate and unconditional release” (see Order, para. 85).

 

 

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Are you seriously saying that the deaths of 20 IDF is on a par with all the dead civilians in Gaza?

 

 

Are you seriously suggesting that's what I said?

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

Do I have to repeat myself again? This is after the 7th. Not relevant to the discussion.

So assuming the support for Hamas was lower before October 7th, killing, raping and kidnaping Jews bolstered their support with Palestinian civilians. 

 

Do you see that as a good thing? 

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

This is after Oct 7. Not relevant. One of the other members in this forum a few hours ago said Palestinians supported Hamas as if that justified 26,000 dead and counting.

 

@Brickleberry

 

It's relevant in that it demonstrates how figures, support and positions can swiftly change.

If you think that's the only instance that this happened over 18 years - that's up to you.

 

 

[Nick Carter icp]

7 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

Do I have to repeat myself again? This is after the 7th. Not relevant to the discussion.

 

  Well it seems extremely odd that 70 % of Palestinians wanted peace  with Israel  prior to Oct 7 th according to your poll and then after Oct 7 th , 70 % agreed with the attack on Oct 7 th .

   Did they all change their  mind after the attack ?