Provisional Decision Today: ICJ Weighs Emergency Measures Amid Allegations of Genocide in Gaza

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

When do civilians ever take down the military? 

 

@Brickleberry

 

Never happened, you say? With 70% support?

Forget about 'take down'. How about some heavy duty mass protests?

Just across the border, for the 9 months before the war, Israelis managed ongoing anti-government protests. Support was less than 70%.

 

 

[Brickleberry]

On 1/27/2024 at 11:35 PM, Morch said:

 

@Brickleberry

 

Like the rest of the wannabe 'pro-palestinian' posters - when can't deal with things, chop the post.

 

You implied that the poll you linked was the only one you 'can find' - this. It's nonsense. This was something debated heatedly much earlier on, with all sorts of polls linked. You claim there is but one poll? Whatever. As for making things up - I did not say I do not believe them, I said there are many polls and that they show different things, and can be analyzed/interpreted in different ways. I did not say 'I would find' - I pointed out to the fact such were linked. I'm not going to dig through them on your behalf, considering you tend to disregard facts anyway, or move the goalposts.

 

Again, was the sentiment described in the poll you cited have any actual relevant manifestation? I don't think so.

 

 

Again we are still waiting for you to show a poll, you claimed clearly stated there were lots of them, and some on this forum... but you have shown nothing yet. Where did I claim there was only one poll? Again just making random stuff up.

 

It was relevant to the discussion at the time, but for some reason you keep harping on about it. The person who I was actually talking about this with moved on to another topic of discussion already. You should take a look at the conversation if you are confused about the context and why it was there.

 

 

[Neeranam]

20 minutes ago, Morch said:

There was no serious effort by Gazans to oust Hamas. THAT's a fact.

 No it isn't. 

 

recently - Masses of Gazans evacuating through the humanitarian corridor in Khan Yunis, chanting - "The people want to overthrow Hamas’

 

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1706371331-hundreds-of-palestinians-protest-hamas-rule-over-gaza

[Brickleberry]

Just now, Morch said:

 

@Brickleberry

 

Never happened, you say? With 70% support?

Forget about 'take down'. How about some heavy duty mass protests?

Just across the border, for the 9 months before the war, Israelis managed ongoing anti-government protests. Support was less than 70%.

 

 

Hamas have guns and rockets. Civilians do not.

How about you look at the protests that happened in July?

Israeli anti-government protests didn't take down Bibi's government did it?

[Brickleberry]

4 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  Well it seems extremely odd that 70 % of Palestinians wanted peace  with Israel  prior to Oct 7 th according to your poll and then after Oct 7 th , 70 % agreed with the attack on Oct 7 th .

   Did they all change their  mind after the attack ?

 

Those figures are not correct. You did not read the poll.

 

50% wanted a permanent end to the conflict with Israel based on the 1967 borders.

70% wanted Hamas out of Gaza, and for the PA to take over.

[Nick Carter icp]

3 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

 No it isn't. 

 

recently - Masses of Gazans evacuating through the humanitarian corridor in Khan Yunis, chanting - "The people want to overthrow Hamas’

 

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1706371331-hundreds-of-palestinians-protest-hamas-rule-over-gaza

 

   The IDF are actually also trying to over throw Hamas 

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

 No it isn't. 

 

recently - Masses of Gazans evacuating through the humanitarian corridor in Khan Yunis, chanting - "The people want to overthrow Hamas’

 

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1706371331-hundreds-of-palestinians-protest-hamas-rule-over-gaza

 

@Neeranam

 

Again, reading comprehension issues. Poster I was replying to was discussing things prior to 7/10.

What you posted actually supports my position - that such poll figures shift, and sentiments may shift easily.

[Yellowtail]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

 No it isn't. 

 

recently - Masses of Gazans evacuating through the humanitarian corridor in Khan Yunis, chanting - "The people want to overthrow Hamas’

 

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/1706371331-hundreds-of-palestinians-protest-hamas-rule-over-gaza

So, hundreds out of millions.

[still kicking]

2 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So, hundreds out of millions.

There is only 2 million in the whole of Gaza.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

Hamas have guns and rockets. Civilians do not.

How about you look at the protests that happened in July?

Israeli anti-government protests didn't take down Bibi's government did it?

 

@Brickleberry

 

Would it be the first time in history people opposed an armed regime? A government? An army?

You're just making excuses.

 

The protests you cited were minuscule and mute relative to the poll figures you hyped.

 

My post said specifically - forget about 'take down'. Just a sheer expression of 70% support should be enough to give any regime a pause.

Never happened.

As for the Israeli protests - the war kinda curtailed that, but it was going strong. Hopefully one 'benefit' of this war would be Netanyahu out of office.

 

You have nothing.

[Yellowtail]

9 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  Well it seems extremely odd that 70 % of Palestinians wanted peace  with Israel  prior to Oct 7 th according to your poll and then after Oct 7 th , 70 % agreed with the attack on Oct 7 th .

   Did they all change their  mind after the attack ?

Yes, when Hamas was not killing enough Jews, they lose support with Palestinian civilians.

[Brickleberry]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@Neeranam

 

Again, reading comprehension issues. Poster I was replying to was discussing things prior to 7/10.

What you posted actually supports my position - that such poll figures shift, and sentiments may shift easily.

Did you not read it? They were chanting they want Hamas out. That would back up my claim, that 70% of Gazans polled wanted them out prior to Oct 7.

 

Still waiting for those polls.

[Yellowtail]

2 minutes ago, still kicking said:

There is only 2 million in the whole of Gaza.

Is two million not millions? 

[Brickleberry]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@Brickleberry

 

Would it be the first time in history people opposed an armed regime? A government? An army?

You're just making excuses.

 

The protests you cited were minuscule and mute relative to the poll figures you hyped.

 

My post said specifically - forget about 'take down'. Just a sheer expression of 70% support should be enough to give any regime a pause.

Never happened.

As for the Israeli protests - the war kinda curtailed that, but it was going strong. Hopefully one 'benefit' of this war would be Netanyahu out of office.

 

You have nothing.

 

Polls, video evidence of them chanting Hamas out and thousands protesting in the streets to get Hamas out in July. I have nothing? Again, you have this backwards. I have backed up all of my claims with proof. Still waiting for anything from you.

[Yellowtail]

Just now, Brickleberry said:

Did you not read it? They were chanting they want Hamas out. That would back up my claim, tat 70% of Gazans polled wanted them out prior to Oct 7.

 

Still waiting for those polls.

Yes, but once Hamas got back to killing Jews, the Palestinians no longer want them out. As long as Hamas keeps killing Jews, the Palestinians will support them.

[Morch]

8 hours ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Again, no substance or a response to anything in my post.

 

Again we are still waiting for you to show a poll, you claimed clearly stated there were lots of them, and some on this forum... but you have shown nothing yet. Where did I claim there was only one poll? Again just making random stuff up.

 

It was relevant to the discussion at the time, but for some reason you keep harping on about it. The person who I was actually talking about this with moved on to another topic of discussion already. You should take a look at the conversation if you are confused about the context and why it was there.

 

 

 

@Brickleberry

 

You're just deflecting by saying 'no substance'. That's not true.

 

I did not say anything about digging up polls for you. I mentioned that they were linked and discussed earlier on these topics. Said specifically that I'm not about to bother on your behalf. You want to argue that such weren't linked? That they weren't discussed? Good luck with that. Not everything needs to be rehashed every time a new troll comes along. You said it's the only poll you could find. Considering that there are several regular polls taken on matter Palestinians, some on a monthly basis, this is an odd comment.

 

As for the nonsense about some other poster and him moving to another topic of discussion - what does that have to do with anything?

[coolcarer]

1 minute ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Polls, video evidence of them chanting Hamas out and thousands protesting in the streets to get Hamas out in July. I have nothing? Again, you have this backwards. I have backed up all of my claims with proof. Still waiting for anything from you.

Link to the video of thousands in July please

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, still kicking said:

There is only 2 million in the whole of Gaza.

 

Yeah, that would make millions.

Hundreds out of two millions still isn't much.

 

Can't wait to see how the 'point' above seats with the 'genocide' claims....

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

Did you not read it? They were chanting they want Hamas out. That would back up my claim, that 70% of Gazans polled wanted them out prior to Oct 7.

 

Still waiting for those polls.

 

@Brickleberry

 

So that small protest, which happened after Gaza faced all this destruction - that's what 'proves' your 70% bit?

How, exactly?

 

There were far more people celebrating the Hamas attack on the streets of Gaza on 7/10.

 

You can wait, I never said anything about providing you any polls - just something you made up and continue to lie about.

[Nick Carter icp]

31 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

So assuming the support for Hamas was lower before October 7th, killing, raping and kidnaping Jews bolstered their support with Palestinian civilians. 

 

Do you see that as a good thing? 

 

   That seems to be the case .

Hamas were quite unpopular prior to Oct 7 th and after the terror attack, Hamas's popularity surged

If Gazian wanted peace, then Hamas's popularity would have declined after the attacks  

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Polls, video evidence of them chanting Hamas out and thousands protesting in the streets to get Hamas out in July. I have nothing? Again, you have this backwards. I have backed up all of my claims with proof. Still waiting for anything from you.

 

@Brickleberry

 

70% out of 2,000,000.

How strong were protests referenced?

You're grasping at straws.

 

More Gazans out celebrating the 7/10 attack on that morning.

More than that invading Israel after Hamas breached through.

[Brickleberry]

24 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@Brickleberry

 

You're just deflecting by saying 'no substance'. That's not true.

 

I did not say anything about digging up polls for you. I mentioned that they were linked and discussed earlier on these topics. Said specifically that I'm not about to bother on your behalf. You want to argue that such weren't linked? That they weren't discussed? Good luck with that. Not everything needs to be rehashed every time a new troll comes along. You said it's the only poll you could find. Considering that there are several regular polls taken on matter Palestinians, some on a monthly basis, this is an odd comment.

 

As for the nonsense about some other poster and him moving to another topic of discussion - what does that have to do with anything?

 

My claims about Palestinians not supporting Hamas were proved by that poll, which was in response to another member. The poll was relevant to the other discussion. See below.

You then jumped in to talk about that not having relevance, but you failed to note the context. The post he replied to said 3/4 of Palestinians wanted to wipe out Israel, and only 5% supported a two state solution. The polls shown were evidence that the OP was making a false statement. I believe the OP he was responding to was BKK brian. So clearly, Hamas and the Palestinians were referenced. Neither of you have provided any evidence to the contrary.

[Bkk Brian]

4 hours ago, Brickleberry said:

 

My claims about Palestinians not supporting Hamas were proved by that poll, which was in response to another member. The poll was relevant to the other discussion. See below.

You then jumped in to talk about that not having relevance, but you failed to note the context. The post he replied to said 3/4 of Palestinians wanted to wipe out Israel, and only 5% supported a two state solution. The polls shown were evidence that the OP was making a false statement. I believe the OP he was responding to was BKK brian. So clearly, Hamas and the Palestinians were referenced. Neither of you have provided any evidence to the contrary.

Your getting bogged down by Polls @Brickleberry

 

Who cares what they were before Oct 7th. If your going to be so reliant on them then the ones after Oct 7th that are import regarding a 2 state solution now. 

 

Palestinians: Just 17.2% want a 2 state solution. 74.7 want “Palestinian state from the river to the sea.” 

A Nov. 14 survey by a West Bank polling firm asked Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank what kind of state they wanted to establish: one state for two peoples garnered the support of 5.4 per cent of respondents; a two-state solution was supported by 17.2 per cent; but the clear-winner, with 74.7 per cent in favour, was a “Palestinian state from the river to the sea.”

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/new-poll-shows-palestinians-are-the-impediment-to-peace-not-israels-war

 

Israelis: Just 25% want a 2 state solution. 65% oppose it. 

Gallup poll between Oct. 17 and Dec. 3. One in four Israeli adults currently support the existence of an independent Palestinian state, while most (65%) oppose it.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/547760/life-israel-oct-charts.aspx

 

[OneMoreFarang]

11 hours ago, Morch said:

 

There are no 'clean' wars. Innocents always get hurt. Putting up an impossible bar is not a valid position.

Yes, there are no clean wars. But there is a great of how dirty they are. And that obviously depends on how much value people put on the lives of the others. And if they are just killing dogs, that is obviously not a big concern... 

[OneMoreFarang]

10 hours ago, Morch said:

Signs of enlightenment, almost....

Thanks

I never wrote that Palestinians are all good and Israelis are all bad. And I never wrote or thought that Israel has no right to defend themselves.

But I also see that, IMHO, the current Israeli government makes the situation a lot worse than necessary. They could fight Hamas more carefully and they could have more support and understanding for their action from the rest of the world.

 

Obviously, there will also be haters on both sides who only see one party as good and one party as bad. Especially in this conflict it isn't that easy. 

[WDSmart]

12 hours ago, Morch said:

16 hours ago, WDSmart said:

As I've noted in detail in a prior post, I refer to the people of Israel as "Israelis" and the right-wing, militant faction there as "Zionists." Just as I refer to the people of Gaza and The West Bank as "Palestinians" and the right-wing, militant faction there as "Hamas."

 

 

 

Your labels are the product of ignorance. Zionists can be left-wing, pro-peace, secular, and against the government - but still serve in the IDF, and/or fight in the Gaza Strip. That's not an opinion - these are facts. Same goes for your contrived nonsense regarding Hamas - All of the Hamas men are Palestinians. There are no non-Palestinian Hamas members.

Here is the definition of "Zionist" in the Oxford Language online dictionary:

1. a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.

    

   That sure doesn't sound "left-wing, pro-peace" and "against the government" to me. It could be "secular," but I suspect it is not. I suspect it is directly associated with militant Judaism. And, yes, they do serve in the IDF and fight in the Gaza Strip. In fact, I suspect the IDF activities labeled by the ICJ as "genocide" are mainly led by Zionists.
   
   I never said that Hamas members are non-Palestinian. I said they were a faction within the group I term as "Palestinians." Although, since you now mention it, there may be some non-Palestinians I that group, but very few. Just as there may be some non-Israelis that are Zionists. An example of those would be mercenaries or citizens of other countries that have come to assist Hamas or the Zionists. I haven't heard of any, but there may be.

[Bkk Brian]

32 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Here is the definition of "Zionist" in the Oxford Language online dictionary:

1. a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.

    

   That sure doesn't sound "left-wing, pro-peace" and "against the government" to me. It could be "secular," but I suspect it is not. I suspect it is directly associated with militant Judaism. And, yes, they do serve in the IDF and fight in the Gaza Strip. In fact, I suspect the IDF activities labeled by the ICJ as "genocide" are mainly led by Zionists.
   
   I never said that Hamas members are non-Palestinian. I said they were a faction within the group I term as "Palestinians." Although, since you now mention it, there may be some non-Palestinians I that group, but very few. Just as there may be some non-Israelis that are Zionists. An example of those would be mercenaries or citizens of other countries that have come to assist Hamas or the Zionists. I haven't heard of any, but there may be

Here's how its used in real life from Anne Frank org they know more than most.

 

Nowadays, the word Zionist is often used as a swearword. As a negative label. Many Palestinians and supporters of the Palestinian cause no longer distinguish between the words 'Jew', 'Israeli' and 'Zionist'. That is not correct. Most Jews do not live in Israel. Not every inhabitant of Israel is Jewish; there are also many non-Jews living in Israel. And not all Jewish Israelis are 'settlers' who want to conquer more and more Palestinian land. The vast majority of Jews believe that the State of Israel should continue to exist. But many Jews, both living in Israel and elsewhere, are in favour of a Palestinian state alongside Israel as a possible solution to the conflict. To cut a long story short: although many Jews identify with Zionism, there are still many different points of view. That is reason enough not to mix up the words 'Jew', 'Israelis' and 'Zionists'. 

https://www.annefrank.org/en/topics/antisemitism/are-all-jews-zionists/

[WDSmart]

12 hours ago, Morch said:

 

There were Jews living there as well. Not just Palestinians. They did not vote as well. What's your point? How could they vote in the UN without being a country first?  And no, there was no Palestinian State before that. Ever.

 

 

There were a lot more Palestinians than Jews living there. 

The link below gives the entire picture of what the population of Palestine looked like before this vote, and how it changed over time up to the time of the vote. In 1944 the percentage of the population in Palestine was Muslim 61%, Jews 30%, with about 10% Other. 

Demographics of Historic Palestine prior to 1948 - CJPME - English

Again, you have posted information that is not correct.

[Bkk Brian]

Just now, WDSmart said:

There were a lot more Palestinians than Jews living there. 

The link below gives the entire picture of what the population of Palestine looked like before this vote, and how it changed over time up to the time of the vote. In 1944 the percentage of the population in Palestine was Muslim 61%, Jews 30%, with about 10% Other. 

Demographics of Historic Palestine prior to 1948 - CJPME - English

Again, you have posted information that is not correct. More trolling? 

more history going back to 1944, lets stay on topic shall we

[WDSmart]

12 hours ago, Morch said:

14 hours ago, WDSmart said:

The Zionists have been attacking, murdering, etc., Palestinians for the past century. (I can't mention anything prior to that, according to @stats.) This conflict didn't start on Oct 7th, although that incident was one of the worst, at least recently.

It's true that if Oct 7th hadn't occurred, the Zionists would not have gone into Gaza to hunt down Hamas and kill plain Palestinian citizens in the process. But it's also true that if the Jews, led by the Zionists, had not, over the past century, taken over most of Palestine and forced the Palestinians into two small separate areas, Hamas would not have done what they did on Oct 7. 

 

What is wrong with you? What's your issue with saying Israelis? Do you object to their existence?

Morch, the reason I primarily use the term "Zionist" when referring to the militant faction in Israel instead of just "Israelis" is the same reason I (and most everyone else) use the term "Hamas" when referring to the militant faction in Palestine instead of just "Palestinians." I don't believe all Palestinians support Hamas any more than I believe all Israelis support the Zionists. 

And, yes, I do have a lot of objections to the existence of Zionists, but not Israelis.