Allegations of UN Agency Staff Involvement in Hamas Attacks Prompt U.S. Funding Pause

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

How is it not common sense? You're constantly relying on pedantry as a defense.

 

How is it humanly possible for an organisation like this to fire anyone without an investigation, even if that's a preliminary examination of evidence provided?

More wild imagination and assumptions, no I rely on the information to hand, the OP, something you obviously don't read before making unsubstantiated claims again, I even gave you a clue in my last post to read it. Terminating a contract does not constitute an investigation, that's still to come.

 

So link or retract.

 

"UNRWA Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini expressed shock at the accusations and swiftly took action by terminating the contracts of the implicated staff members. He emphasized the importance of conducting a thorough investigation to determine the truth behind the allegations, stating, "Any UNRWA employee who was involved in acts of terror will be held accountable, including through criminal prosecution."

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Bkk Brian said:

More wild imagination and assumptions, no I rely on the information to hand, the OP, something you obviously don't read before making unsubstantiated claims again, I even gave you a clue in my last post to read it.

 

So link or retract.

 

"UNRWA Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini expressed shock at the accusations and swiftly took action by terminating the contracts of the implicated staff members. He emphasized the importance of conducting a thorough investigation to determine the truth behind the allegations, stating, "Any UNRWA employee who was involved in acts of terror will be held accountable, including through criminal prosecution."

 

There already was an investigation. They are normally followed up by a more extensive investigation after the problem has been remedied as a postmortem. Standard practice.

 

Are you really tryoing to imply that there was no investigation at all? Really?

 

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

There already was an investigation. They are normally followed up by a more extensive investigation after the problem has been remedied as a postmortem. Standard practice.

 

Are you really tryoing to imply that there was no investigation at all? Really?

 

Read the OP 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

UNRWA acted against those involved. What more do you want. It's impossible for an international non political organisation not to include biases on both sides.

 

@ozimoron

 

What pro-Israeli bias is 'included' in UNRWA? Do you even know who works there?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

You support defunding an international organisation. That demonstrates a lack of faith in their ability to investigate. They have already fired the culprits. It's humanitarian organisation, why defund it unless humanitarian causes mean nothing to you?

 

@ozimoron

 

These sort of allegations are nothing new. UNRWA routinely rejects them, until things cannot be covered. Then there's an 'investigation', some underlings get the boot, rinse repeat. There's no systematic overhaul of the organization, and not enough oversight.

 

The articles linked explain the reasoning for de-funding. There are already 9 donor countries who feel the same way about it. Maybe take your issues with them. Or do you think they have less insight into this than you and your posts?

[Morch]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

 

Yes, Israel gave them the money in order to prevent the formation of unified political representation. It backfired massively.

 

@ozimoron

 

That would be you, either through haste or intentionally posting an untruth. Israel did not 'give them money'. It was Qatar.

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, ozimoron said:

 

They already investigated. If more allegations surface they will investigate those too. Anyone would think the UN was a lawless organisation with no controls in place. Your team also tried to pass the blame on them for funding Hamas instead of blaming the real culprits, Qatar and Netanyahu,

 

@ozimoron

 

That would be you claiming things you do not actually know.

Apparently, the donor states are not satisfied, and neither is the UNSG. They do not share your confidence.

Of course, you know better.

 

You are also ignoring UNRWA's poor track record on these things.

 

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

Personally I disagree with defunding UNRWA based upon a very small number of staff (approx 15,000 staff in Gaza) allegedly involved with Oct 7. UNRWA has already fired those who Israel named. I would guess it is extremely difficult to identify staff actually involved with terrorism. As an outcome of this matter UNRWA will be under additional scrutiny by various security agencies. UNRWA carry our very important work supporting the local population in an extremely challenging environment - to date 100 UN staff killed in Gaza since 7 October. IMO it amounts to collective punishment to withhold funding, enable them to carry on with their essential services.

 

The ones fired are just the most obvious recent cases. If you believe that's the sum of it - up to you. Obviously, donor countries and even the UN take another view - whether based on common sense, information or awareness to UNRWA's track record.

 

I have no idea why you'd think it 'extremely difficult' to identify staff actually involved with terrorism. Quite the opposite. Belonging to a large organization comes with a more significant 'footprint' as far as intelligence and investigations go. Then there's a question of what comes under 'actually involved'. Does lending an UNRWA car for Hamas use count? Does diverting some budgets? Does letting them take supplies from stocks? Or is it just the actual participation in violence?

 

UNRWA had such investigations before.  Not a whole lot changes. There aren't a whole lot of security agencies able to apply scrutiny in the Gaza Strip.

 

Having some organization, some body to manage aid for the Gaza Strip is ok. There is not requirement that it would continue to be UNRWA, or UNRWA without a serious overhaul.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, 300sd said:

Cry me a river. These UNRWA creatures are surprised of the link from some of their employees to Hamas terrorist attack! They are all complicit. If one isn't anti-Semitic then it's only a little common sense!

 

I don't think even Israel seriously claimed that they are all complicit.

[Brickleberry]

 

What an absolute joke. Out of 13,000 staff members in Gaza, 12 have been alleged to have done this. The 12 individuals involved have already been fired, and an independent investigation has already begun to determine the facts of the matter.

 

We shouldn't punish every single Palestinian by blocking funds for aid because 12 out of 13,000 were apparently involved in Oct 7th. It is also worthy to point out that this evidence comes from Israel - and we have caught them lying on multiple occasions. It is highly believable, it is a tiny tiny fraction of the total number of staff, but I would still like to see verification by an independent third part.

 

Israel gets accused of genocide, apartheid and war crimes, but the US does not cut any funding. What a joke.

 

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/26/1227142760/unrwa-un-agency-gaza-hamas-employees-oct-7-attack

Quote

Twelve UNRWA employees were allegedly involved, according to the U.S. State Department, which also said it has temporarily paused additional funding for the U.N. agency "while we review these allegations and the steps the United Nations is taking to address them."

 

Quote

"It is shocking to see a suspension of funds to the Agency in reaction to allegations against a small group of staff, especially given the immediate action that UNRWA took by terminating their contracts and asking for a transparent independent investigation," he said.

 

[Morch]

26 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

What an absolute joke. Out of 13,000 staff members in Gaza, 12 have been alleged to have done this. The 12 individuals involved have already been fired, and an independent investigation has already begun to determine the facts of the matter.

 

We shouldn't punish every single Palestinian by blocking funds for aid because 12 out of 13,000 were apparently involved in Oct 7th. It is also worthy to point out that this evidence comes from Israel - and we have caught them lying on multiple occasions. It is highly believable, it is a tiny tiny fraction of the total number of staff, but I would still like to see verification by an independent third part.

 

Israel gets accused of genocide, apartheid and war crimes, but the US does not cut any funding. What a joke.

 

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/26/1227142760/unrwa-un-agency-gaza-hamas-employees-oct-7-attack

 

 

 

It's not the first time such issues come up with UNRWA. Previous 'investigations' did not seem to bring fundamental changes. The cases in question are just the more blatant, obvious ones - and given the organization's track record, there's no reason to think that's where it ends.

 

Donor countries, the UNSG do not seem convinced. Apparently you know better.

 

As for the evidence coming from Israel - obviously it was found to be solid, or the allegations would have been rejected and nothing done. The USA said (linked in the relevant topic) it does not agree/find merit/whatever with the ICJ's provisional ruling. Simply blaming Israel is not the same as said agency employees being shown to actually be complicit. Just another bogus false equivalence attempt on your part.

 

And it is not 'we', stop co-opting everyone and speak for yourself.

[Brickleberry]

5 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

It's not the first time such issues come up with UNRWA. Previous 'investigations' did not seem to bring fundamental changes. The cases in question are just the more blatant, obvious ones - and given the organization's track record, there's no reason to think that's where it ends.

 

Donor countries, the UNSG do not seem convinced. Apparently you know better.

 

As for the evidence coming from Israel - obviously it was found to be solid, or the allegations would have been rejected and nothing done. The USA said (linked in the relevant topic) it does not agree/find merit/whatever with the ICJ's provisional ruling. Simply blaming Israel is not the same as said agency employees being shown to actually be complicit. Just another bogus false equivalence attempt on your part.

 

And it is not 'we', stop co-opting everyone and speak for yourself.

 

Again, you are ignoring the details. 12 out of 13,000, so lets cut all funding for 2 million people living in an area that has been bombed harder than any other conflict in the world. A disproportionate reaction.

 

As for the evidence out of Israel, they have been caught lying previously. That being said, it is highly likely that there a few bad apples in a large ship of them. Th US not agreeing with the ICJ is meaningless, the court is the one to decide, not politics in America.

 

It is also important to note that Israel wants UN aid agencies out of Gaza:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68119268

Quote

Israeli Foreign Minister Israel Katz said he aimed to stop UNRWA operating in Gaza after the war.

 

We... are we not citizens of the 9 countries who have stopped funding? We in this case is accurate. Stop being a pedant.

 

 

[Nick Carter icp]

3 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Again, you are ignoring the details. 12 out of 13,000, so lets cut all funding for 2 million people living in an area that has been bombed harder than any other conflict in the world. A disproportionate reaction.

 

As for the evidence out of Israel, they have been caught lying previously.

 

 

 

   When were Israel previously caught lying ?

[coolcarer]

47 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

What an absolute joke. Out of 13,000 staff members in Gaza, 12 have been alleged to have done this. The 12 individuals involved have already been fired, and an independent investigation has already begun to determine the facts of the matter.

 

We shouldn't punish every single Palestinian by blocking funds for aid because 12 out of 13,000 were apparently involved in Oct 7th. It is also worthy to point out that this evidence comes from Israel - and we have caught them lying on multiple occasions. It is highly believable, it is a tiny tiny fraction of the total number of staff, but I would still like to see verification by an independent third part.

 

Israel gets accused of genocide, apartheid and war crimes, but the US does not cut any funding. What a joke.

 

https://www.npr.org/2024/01/26/1227142760/unrwa-un-agency-gaza-hamas-employees-oct-7-attack

 

 

No jokes, honest. This is not an isolated case. It's been going on for years. Get your head out the sand.

 

It's also not just the US that has suspended aid money, also Germany, United Kingdom, Australia, Italy, Canada, Finland and the Netherlands. But you know better of course.

 

If you want to read previous incidents, there are dozens and dozens, then go here. 

 

https://unwatch.org/tag/unrwa/

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Again, you are ignoring the details. 12 out of 13,000, so lets cut all funding for 2 million people living in an area that has been bombed harder than any other conflict in the world. A disproportionate reaction.

 

As for the evidence out of Israel, they have been caught lying previously. That being said, it is highly likely that there a few bad apples in a large ship of them. Th US not agreeing with the ICJ is meaningless, the court is the one to decide, not politics in America.

 

It is also important to note that Israel wants UN aid agencies out of Gaza:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68119268

 

We... are we not citizens of the 9 countries who have stopped funding? We in this case is accurate. Stop being a pedant.

 

 

 

I am not ignoring the details, I have addressed them.

This is neither a first, nor do involved parties seem to believe that's the sum of it. And rightly so.

 

As said on another post, aid for Gaza is one thing, having UNRWA as the mediating body is not a must.

It can either be overhauled, or replaced by a new agency. Personally, I think it cannot be fixed by now.

 

You making general claims about Israel 'lying' is irrelevant. The evidence presented in this case was obviously accepted.

Why would there be only a few bad apples, in your mind? Why not many? Do you think simply being an employee of UNRWA testifies as to a person's morals? positions? It doesn't have anything to do with that. For most, it's just a job.

 

The USA not agreeing with the ICJ is relevant when you question why the USA does not de-fund Israel. It's USA money, not the ICJ's nor other countries' - and there are no sanctions involved.

 

Yeah, UNRWA and other agencies have a dodgy track record in the Gaza Strip, already mentioned that. A good opportunity to change and improve things. If you ever worked with such bodies you'd know.

 

Some of are, some of us are not. Not everyone shares your point of view anyway. Speak for yourself.

[Brickleberry]

29 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I am not ignoring the details, I have addressed them.

This is neither a first, nor do involved parties seem to believe that's the sum of it. And rightly so.

 

As said on another post, aid for Gaza is one thing, having UNRWA as the mediating body is not a must.

It can either be overhauled, or replaced by a new agency. Personally, I think it cannot be fixed by now.

 

You making general claims about Israel 'lying' is irrelevant. The evidence presented in this case was obviously accepted.

Why would there be only a few bad apples, in your mind? Why not many? Do you think simply being an employee of UNRWA testifies as to a person's morals? positions? It doesn't have anything to do with that. For most, it's just a job.

 

The USA not agreeing with the ICJ is relevant when you question why the USA does not de-fund Israel. It's USA money, not the ICJ's nor other countries' - and there are no sanctions involved.

 

Yeah, UNRWA and other agencies have a dodgy track record in the Gaza Strip, already mentioned that. A good opportunity to change and improve things. If you ever worked with such bodies you'd know.

 

Some of are, some of us are not. Not everyone shares your point of view anyway. Speak for yourself.

 

Is it really surprising that an agency that has to hire local people will have some local people supporting Hamas? A new agency will have the same issues, it has to hire local people, and some of these terrorist sympathizers will get through. It is inevitable. Might as well get rid of all the agencies helping, right? No. identify the bad apples and kick them out.

 

You are also ignoring the fact that this is not a secretive agency,. It supplies all of the names to Israel and every other country sending aid. It is transparent and open. This is why they should be supported because it is easy to identify any bad apples and they have reacted in the appropriate way - they fired them and started an investigation.

 

Israel has accused virtually every single aid agency, international agency, international court etc of being biased and antisemitic. If Israel gets it way, there will not be anyone to left to help.

 

A few bad apples should not ruin it for everyone.

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Is it really surprising that an agency that has to hire local people will have some local people supporting Hamas? A new agency will have the same issues, it has to hire local people, and some of these terrorist sympathizers will get through. It is inevitable. Might as well get rid of all the agencies helping, right? No. identify the bad apples and kick them out.

 

You are also ignoring the fact that this is not a secretive agency,. It supplies all of the names to Israel and every other country sending aid. It is transparent and open. This is why they should be supported because it is easy to identify any bad apples and they have reacted in the appropriate way - they fired them and started an investigation.

 

Israel has accused virtually every single aid agency, international agency, international court etc of being biased and antisemitic. If Israel gets it way, there will not be anyone to left to help.

 

A few bad apples should not ruin it for everyone.

 

   Stop being deceptive and mispresenting the situation .

The UNRWA staff  participated in the Oct 7 th terror attack , they didn't "support" Hamas 

They ARE Hamas .

Western Nations paid the Hamas terrorists to kill Israelis

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Is it really surprising that an agency that has to hire local people will have some local people supporting Hamas? A new agency will have the same issues, it has to hire local people, and some of these terrorist sympathizers will get through. It is inevitable. Might as well get rid of all the agencies helping, right? No. identify the bad apples and kick them out.

 

You are also ignoring the fact that this is not a secretive agency,. It supplies all of the names to Israel and every other country sending aid. It is transparent and open. This is why they should be supported because it is easy to identify any bad apples and they have reacted in the appropriate way - they fired them and started an investigation.

 

Israel has accused virtually every single aid agency, international agency, international court etc of being biased and antisemitic. If Israel gets it way, there will not be anyone to left to help.

 

A few bad apples should not ruin it for everyone.

 

@Brickleberry

 

No, it is not surprising at all - that's the point. These are not new allegations, and not a new issue. UNRWA said it will deal with such stuff, it obviously failed to do so.

 

Part of the issue is organizational culture, and another is how dominant Hamas is in the Gaza Strip. If Hamas is rendered less of a force, there could be hope for a change on this front as well. As for the organization - like many others, it's been around too long, set in its ways, corruption and rot spreading - time for a change. Maybe stricter screening procedures, maybe more intel from relevant parties. Maybe things different if the PA steps in. Simply throwing out (or claiming to) the  'bad apples' doesn't work, and cannot work.

 

It is not transparent and open. There were plenty of issues regarding funds, content of school curriculum, Hamas use of facilities, aid being diverted/taken by Hamas, and so on. Each and every time, UNRWA first strongly denied.

 

Many of the aid organizations involved with the Gaza Strip are problematic when it comes to similar issues. Again, nothing new.

 

You seem to wish things to continue as they were. You would.

 

Few bad apples is just you trying to minimize things, nothing more. Donor countries and the UN do not buy into it. You keep harping about Israel.

[Brickleberry]

41 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Stop being deceptive and mispresenting the situation .

The UNRWA staff  participated in the Oct 7 th terror attack , they didn't "support" Hamas 

They ARE Hamas .

Western Nations paid the Hamas terrorists to kill Israelis

 

Get it right. 12 members of staff out of 13,000.

Disgusting accusation.

[Nick Carter icp]

5 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Get it right. 12 members of staff out of 13,000.

Disgusting accusation.

 

  We are both saying the same thing, that UNRWA staff participated in the Oct 7 th terror attack 

[Brickleberry]

3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  We are both saying the same thing, that UNRWA staff participated in the Oct 7 th terror attack 

No, you say all. Disgusting.

 

There were 12 out of 13,000

[Bkk Brian]

8 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Get it right. 12 members of staff out of 13,000.

Disgusting accusation.

There is an investigation on going. 12 so far. What about the hostage that said they were held by UNRWA teacher?

Tip of a filthy iceberg?

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, Brickleberry said:

No, you say all. Disgusting.

 

There were 12 out of 13,000

 

  I didn't , I didn't say *all* 

I just re read my post and the word *all* isn't there 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

There is an investigation on going. 12 so far. What about the hostage that said they were held by UNRWA teacher?

Tip of a filthy iceberg?

 

link to hostage held by UNRWA teacher

[300sd]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

I don't think even Israel seriously claimed that they are all complicit.

Of course you are right. I was certainly over exaggerating. It may be more like dry rot in a boat. You get out what you can see but there's always more.

[Bkk Brian]

6 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

link to hostage held by UNRWA teacher

One of the hostages, recently released from Gaza, revealed that he was held for nearly 50 days in an attic by a teacher from UNRWA

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-775777

 

More proof you need a lot more reading of topics, this has been discussed numerous times

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

One of the hostages, recently released from Gaza, revealed that he was held for nearly 50 days in an attic by a teacher from UNRWA

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-775777

 

More proof you need a lot more reading of topics, this has been discussed numerous times

 

But no independent evidence of any kind, right? Not saying it didn't happen but the Jerusalem Daily Propaganda (oh, did I get that wrong, my bad) is a bit suspect absent any corroborating evidence. Shall I start posting Arab propaganda to match you?

[Brickleberry]

19 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  I didn't , I didn't say *all* 

I just re read my post and the word *all* isn't there 

 

I read your words carefully.

 

You used the definite article 'the' which would refer to all of the UNRWA.

 

If you had correctly stated that 12 members of staff, or 0.0009% of the total were alleged to have been involved,  then we would agree.

 

Note, you just accepted Israels version of events without seeing any evidence.

 

It is definitely believable - 0.0009% involved is a ridiculously low number, especially when you consider they must hire local people. So well played to the UNRWA for managing to keep out the terrorist sympathizers.

 

You go on to say UNRWA are Hamas - you explicitly referred to the UNRWA. Disgusting accusation that is completely unfounded.

[Bkk Brian]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

But no independent evidence of any kind, right? Not saying it didn't happen but the Jerusalem Daily Propaganda (oh, did I get that wrong, my bad) is a bit suspect absent any corroborating evidence. Shall I start posting Arab propaganda to match you?

Propaganda? BBC is Propaganda to? Its part of the investigations going on. Honestly your such an apologist

 

UNRWA claims: UK halts aid to UN agency over allegation staff helped Hamas attack

He also referred to an Israeli hostage who, on her release, said she had been "held in the house of someone who worked for UNRWA

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68104203

 

 

[Nick Carter icp]

7 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

I read your words carefully.

 

You used the definite article 'the' which would refer to all of the UNRWA.

 

If you had correctly stated that 12 members of staff, or 0.0009% of the total were alleged to have been involved,  then we would agree.

 

Note, you just accepted Israels version of events without seeing any evidence.

 

It is definitely believable - 0.0009% involved is a ridiculously low number, especially when you consider they must hire local people. So well played to the UNRWA for managing to keep out the terrorist sympathizers.

 

You go on to say UNRWA are Hamas - you explicitly referred to the UNRWA. Disgusting accusation that is completely unfounded.

 

  You made the false  claim that UNRWA members just supported Hamas and I pointed out that UNRWA members were actually members of Hamas who participated in the terror attacks , rather than just being supporters .

   There are huge differences between  just being a supporter and being an active member