Retirement Visa and 800k THB

[Tazmo]

I have 800K in a fixed Bangkok Bank account for over 10 years now.

 

My concern is that if I become unwell and unable to access that money, how can my Thai Partner get access to it? Also to 200K which I deposited to the bank so that I can use a credit card.

 

We’re not married but live together for 4 years in a house, paid for by me, but in her name.

 

Do I need to make a Thai Will?  Through a Lawyer or just a witness?

 

 I already have a Will made here, in English and Thai, but my son is named as the Executor ( that cost me 6K THB 6 years ago)! Now to revise that will it will be 15K.
 

The Bank says that I need a Will, naming my wife/ partner, but then at the time of need she will have to go to a court for approval.

 

Grateful if anyone has dealt with a similar situation to advice please.

[Tazmo]

Oh, forgot to mention that my son lives in the UK.

Maybe I need a separate Will for the UK?

[Red Phoenix]

Hi Tazmo, I am in a very similar situation as yourself.

Living for 6 years in Thailand now with my Thai girlfriend.  And as we are not officially married, the easiest way for me to stay long-term in Thailand is on annual renewable permissions to stay from a Non Imm O Visa for reason of retirement (just like you are doing).

In order to avoid the risk and hassle of slipping under the required financial requirement for the extensions of that Visa, I opened a Fixed Deposit account with Kasikorn Bank, where I continually keep +800K (just a bit more to avoid that the annual admin fee would result in going under that mandatory 800K figure. 

The upside of that FD account is that I cannot slip accidentally under that 800K figure, as I need to go with my passport to the Bank to do any transactions on it, which I do once a year at Permission to stay renewal application time.  And Immigration requires that the bank-account is on your own personal name, so my partner nor anybody else has access to it.

Now there is of course the issue of what would happen with that 800K when I die, as my partner does not have access. 

I looked into this and the process is that when a foreigner dies in Thailand, that his accounts are frozen by the Bank, until the heritage question has been settled. 

Min my case there is no need for me to make a will, as all my possessions would automatically go to my 3 children.  And I made the agreement with all 3 of them, that they would transfer 25% of the value of the heritage they receive, to my partner.  This avoids that my partner with which I am not married would be heavily taxed on what she would receive when I would put her in my will. 

So the 800K will go - after quite some time as that process takes time - to my children. 

And every year I provide my children with a complete overview of the 'status' and details of what I possess.  I.e. the details of all my bank-accounts (and their balance), my insurance policies and physical assets, and that includes the details of the FD bank-account at Kasikorn bank.  It will thus not be a mad scramble by them to figure out what are my possesions.

RE the 800K > I consider that 'sleeping amount' of 800K, as a kind of 'insurance' which can be used in case of me having an accident/hospitalization.

In summary > in my case 'doing nothing' (except the annual overview I make of my possessions, which I provide to my children) is same as making a will.  And of course I completely trust my children in that they would each provide 25% of their heritage to my partner (they fully agreed to that and saw the logic of it).  Obviously I also made arrangements that even in the 'transition' period before my partner would receive her share, that she would not be left in the cold.  For that purpose I transferred a considerable amount of money to her bank-account. 

>> Your situation might be slightly different, but this is how I dealt with the inevitable reality that chances are that I will 'go first' as my Thai girlfriend is 12 years younger than me.

Cheers - BlueSphinx

[FolkGuitar]

I solved the problem of that 800.000 Baht by simply putting my wife's name on the account and adding her signature to the passbook.

I trust my wife. If I didn't, I wouldn't have married her.

[Red Phoenix]

16 minutes ago, FolkGuitar said:

I solved the problem of that 800.000 Baht by simply putting my wife's name on the account and adding her signature to the passbook.

I trust my wife. If I didn't, I wouldn't have married her.

Did your local Immigration Office accept such Joint account when applying for the 1-year extension based on your Non Imm O Visa?

Reason I ask, is that in all threads on this topic it says that the majority of Imm Offices ONLY accept a Thai bank-account opened on your personal name.  And that there are some Imm Offices that do accept a Bank-account carrying the name of both you and your wife, but that in that case the required funds to meet the Immigration requirements need to be doubled > i.e. + 1.600.000,- THB.

[Jaxxper]

You need to have a will for each jurisdiction in which you have assets.

[proton]

4 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

Did your local Immigration Office accept such Joint account when applying for the 1-year extension based on your Non Imm O Visa?

Reason I ask, is that in all threads on this topic it says that the majority of Imm Offices ONLY accept a Thai bank-account opened on your personal name.  And that there are some Imm Offices that do accept a Bank-account carrying the name of both you and your wife, but that in that case the required funds to meet the Immigration requirements need to be doubled > i.e. + 1.600.000,- THB.

Not joint accounts joint signatories, only your name is on the account, mrs takes money out of my krungsri account, Immigration dont know and does not matter

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, proton said:

Not joint accounts joint signatories, only your name is on the account, mrs takes money out of my krungsri account, Immigration dont know and does not matter

Thanks, and I read about that possibility.  But when I opened my Fixed Deposit Account at my local Kasikorn branch, and enquired about doing exactly that what you proposed, the Bank staff told me that that was not possible.  I insisted on it, but also the Bank manager told that was not possible.  So it seems to be Bank and branche dependant, wjhether a joint signatory would be possible. 

[proton]

2 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

Thanks, and I read about that possibility.  But when I opened my Fixed Deposit Account at my local Kasikorn branch, and enquired about doing exactly that what you proposed, the Bank staff told me that that was not possible.  I insisted on it, but also the Bank manager told that was not possible.  So it seems to be Bank and branche dependant, wjhether a joint signatory would be possible. 

Maybe not with a fixed account, mine not one.

[khunPer]

16 hours ago, Tazmo said:

I have 800K in a fixed Bangkok Bank account for over 10 years now.

 

My concern is that if I become unwell and unable to access that money, how can my Thai Partner get access to it? Also to 200K which I deposited to the bank so that I can use a credit card.

 

We’re not married but live together for 4 years in a house, paid for by me, but in her name.

 

Do I need to make a Thai Will?  Through a Lawyer or just a witness?

 

 I already have a Will made here, in English and Thai, but my son is named as the Executor ( that cost me 6K THB 6 years ago)! Now to revise that will it will be 15K.
 

The Bank says that I need a Will, naming my wife/ partner, but then at the time of need she will have to go to a court for approval.

 

Grateful if anyone has dealt with a similar situation to advice please.

To my knowledge if the 800k baht is used for extension of stay, the account shall be i your name only and withdrawals cannot be made to anybody else. I your local immigration accepts a shared account it will normally need to be the double amount; i.e., 1.6 million baht. Upon death bank accounts are normally frozen and will be part of the estate.

 

A last will is normally recommended and for both parties. You don't know who might die first. If the is no will the inheritance will follow the Thai law. If you wife dies and there is no will you are eligible to half, 50 percent.

 

The two Thai lawyers that wrote the book "Thai Law for Foreigners" suggest that a foreigner makes two last will, one for any valuables in one's home country – following the rules of the home country – and another for any valuables in Thailand, following the rules here. It will normally be the court in the country with primary residency that handles the estate; i.e., if your primary residency is Thailand it will be a Thai court handling the estate.

 

For your 200k bank account/bank deposit with credit card you can change it to an account in both names – a question of trust – and state in the will that any funds in a shared account or in shared accounts fully shall belong to the other named account holder. I've done that for my shared accounts, so my girlfriend has a chance to withdraw legally.

 

According to the lawyers that wrote above mentioned book, you can write your own will in plain language or use a preprinted form. Always state that this will cancels all earlier made will/wills – eventually name it/them – and sign it and have it registered at the local amphor-office. You don't need a a lwyer for a last will to be legal.

[Thingamabob]

13 hours ago, FolkGuitar said:

I solved the problem of that 800.000 Baht by simply putting my wife's name on the account and adding her signature to the passbook.

I trust my wife. If I didn't, I wouldn't have married her.

That would make your extension applications unacceptable to immigration at Chaeng Wattana. They insist the account with an 800k deposit must be in the applicant's name only. I have no idea, however, if other immigration offices apply the same ruling 

[Red Phoenix]

7 hours ago, khunPer said:

To my knowledge if the 800k baht is used for extension of stay, the account shall be i your name only and withdrawals cannot be made to anybody else. I your local immigration accepts a shared account it will normally need to be the double amount; i.e., 1.6 million baht. Upon death bank accounts are normally frozen and will be part of the estate.

 

A last will is normally recommended and for both parties. You don't know who might die first. If the is no will the inheritance will follow the Thai law. If you wife dies and there is no will you are eligible to half, 50 percent.

 

The two Thai lawyers that wrote the book "Thai Law for Foreigners" suggest that a foreigner makes two last will, one for any valuables in one's home country – following the rules of the home country – and another for any valuables in Thailand, following the rules here. It will normally be the court in the country with primary residency that handles the estate; i.e., if your primary residency is Thailand it will be a Thai court handling the estate.

 

For your 200k bank account/bank deposit with credit card you can change it to an account in both names – a question of trust – and state in the will that any funds in a shared account or in shared accounts fully shall belong to the other named account holder. I've done that for my shared accounts, so my girlfriend has a chance to withdraw legally.

 

According to the lawyers that wrote above mentioned book, you can write your own will in plain language or use a preprinted form. Always state that this will cancels all earlier made will/wills – eventually name it/them – and sign it and have it registered at the local amphor-office. You don't need a a lwyer for a last will to be legal.

Thanks for that overview.  And yes what you wrote is fully correct. 

Two additional comments:

1 - If the procedure that will be followed in case there is no will at your demise, would be no different than how you want it, there is no need to make a will.

2 - It makes sense to make an overview of all your possessions/contracts (physical assets like houses/land, insurance policies, bank-accounts, etc.) and update that list annually, such that in case of your demise that it would not be a mad scramble to find out all of the above (with the risk of overlooking a life-insurance policy or a foreign bank-account). 

[sirineou]

16 hours ago, FolkGuitar said:

I solved the problem of that 800.000 Baht by simply putting my wife's name on the account and adding her signature to the passbook.

I trust my wife. If I didn't, I wouldn't have married her.

Can you do that? I thought the account had to be in your name only.

[FolkGuitar]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

Can you do that? I thought the account had to be in your name only.

The account IS in my name only.

[FolkGuitar]

4 hours ago, Thingamabob said:

That would make your extension applications unacceptable to immigration at Chaeng Wattana. They insist the account with an 800k deposit must be in the applicant's name only. I have no idea, however, if other immigration offices apply the same ruling 

 

The account IS in my name only. That doesn't stop others from having access to it.

[couchpotato]

12 minutes ago, FolkGuitar said:

 

The account IS in my name only. That doesn't stop others from having access to it.

In a post above you said that you put your wife's name on the account  (and adding her signature). Now you say the account is your name only...how about being straight with your info here. Which way is it?.

[Red Phoenix]

55 minutes ago, couchpotato said:

In a post above you said that you put your wife's name on the account  (and adding her signature). Now you say the account is your name only...how about being straight with your info here. Which way is it?.

@FolkGuitar was not backtracking or being untrue in his response.  But it is like @proton correctly wrote that there is a difference between joint accounts and joint signatories. 

Some Thai banks allow another 'signatory' on the personal account you have opened with them.  And that signatory person (e.g. your wife) is not visible in your Passbook, but it does allow the signatory person to access that personal bank-account.  And when your request the Bank to provide you with the annual Bank-Account statement (often referred to as the 'letter' to Immigration) it will state that you are the sole owner of that account.  

Unfortunately at my Kasikorn bank-branche when I opened my Fixed Deposit account there, the staff and the bank manager told me that it was not possible for the FD account that I opened.  Most probably it's only possible to have such a hidden joint signatory for Saving Accounts.  

Edited February 2 by Red Phoenix

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

Unfortunately at my Kasikorn bank-branche when I opened my Fixed Deposit account there, the staff and the bank manager told me that it was not possible for the FD account that I opened.  Most probably it's only possible to have such a hidden joint signatory for Saving Accounts.  

I was interested in having my wife have access also, unfortunately my account is with Kasikorn also 

but I will ask, dont lose anything to ask, and or see if there is some other contingency available that would help expedite my wife's access in the event something happened to me,  

[CMBob]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

I was interested in having my wife have access also, unfortunately my account is with Kasikorn also 

but I will ask, dont lose anything to ask, and or see if there is some other contingency available that would help expedite my wife's access in the event something happened to me,  

In the event of death (when the bank finds out about it), the account will be locked until a Thai "probate" court grants authority to an executor to access it.  Having one's wife/partner as a signatory on the account doesn't change that; however, until the bank is aware of the death, the wife/partner who is a signatory should have no problem accessing account funds.

[hotandsticky]

11 minutes ago, CMBob said:

In the event of death (when the bank finds out about it), the account will be locked until a Thai "probate" court grants authority to an executor to access it.  Having one's wife/partner as a signatory on the account doesn't change that; however, until the bank is aware of the death, the wife/partner who is a signatory should have no problem accessing account funds.

 

 

Just to complete your post ......."albeit illegally".

 

 

Just because the bank have not been made aware of the death, it does not mean it hasn't happened.

 

 

All mandates cease on death.

[giddyup]

1 hour ago, CMBob said:

In the event of death (when the bank finds out about it), the account will be locked until a Thai "probate" court grants authority to an executor to access it.  Having one's wife/partner as a signatory on the account doesn't change that; however, until the bank is aware of the death, the wife/partner who is a signatory should have no problem accessing account funds.

And how would the bank find out about it?

[giddyup]

47 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

Just to complete your post ......."albeit illegally".

 

 

Just because the bank have not been made aware of the death, it does not mean it hasn't happened.

 

 

All mandates cease on death.

If it's a joint account it shouldn't present a problem.

[hotandsticky]

6 minutes ago, giddyup said:

If it's a joint account it shouldn't present a problem.

 

 

As you say, it "shouldn't" be a problem. The account passes to the survivor by succession and bypasses Probate.

 

BUT, this is Thailand and I have seen obstacles put in front of a surviving spouse. It is worth checking with the bank (although you cannot guarantee what will happen several years later). I much prefer the idea of the surviving account holder cleaning out the account before advising the bank.

 

These words from UK Citizens Advice:-

 

Couples may also have joint bank or building society accounts. If one dies, all the money will go to the surviving partner without the need for probate or letters of administration. The bank may need the see the death certificate in order to transfer the money to the other joint owner.

 

 

This from HSBC:-

 

Any Current Accounts or Savings accounts held in the sole name of the deceased will be frozen. This includes the use of any cards linked to the account(s) and being able to transact via telephone or online banking.

No restrictions will be placed on joint accounts as joint accounts will transfer automatically to the surviving account holders.

[FolkGuitar]

5 hours ago, couchpotato said:

In a post above you said that you put your wife's name on the account  (and adding her signature). Now you say the account is your name only...how about being straight with your info here. Which way is it?.

 

Please excuse me. My error in correct bank terminology. Her signature was added to the account, and that's worked fine for many years here.

[FolkGuitar]

4 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

@FolkGuitar was not backtracking or being untrue in his response.  But it is like @proton correctly wrote that there is a difference between joint accounts and joint signatories. 

Some Thai banks allow another 'signatory' on the personal account you have opened with them.  And that signatory person (e.g. your wife) is not visible in your Passbook, but it does allow the signatory person to access that personal bank-account.  And when your request the Bank to provide you with the annual Bank-Account statement (often referred to as the 'letter' to Immigration) it will state that you are the sole owner of that account.  

Unfortunately at my Kasikorn bank-branche when I opened my Fixed Deposit account there, the staff and the bank manager told me that it was not possible for the FD account that I opened.  Most probably it's only possible to have such a hidden joint signatory for Saving Accounts.  

 

Please excuse me. As you state, it was my error in correct bank terminology. Her signature was added to the account, and that's worked fine for many years here.

[khunPer]

8 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

Thanks for that overview.  And yes what you wrote is fully correct. 

Two additional comments:

1 - If the procedure that will be followed in case there is no will at your demise, would be no different than how you want it, there is no need to make a will.

2 - It makes sense to make an overview of all your possessions/contracts (physical assets like houses/land, insurance policies, bank-accounts, etc.) and update that list annually, such that in case of your demise that it would not be a mad scramble to find out all of the above (with the risk of overlooking a life-insurance policy or a foreign bank-account). 

Thanks for your reply.

 

1) To my understanding: Correct.

 

2) I tried to make it simple by stating that all shared banks accounts goes to the other mentioned name (there can only be two names in Thailand), while all other bank-funds shall be divided as...

Furthermore I mentioned living cost for a periode to be paid to [name] before any sharing, and together funeral expenses (which is normally mentioned i9n a will).

I also mentioned my two Thai equity deposits – they are in two different bank trading platforms – where one goes to my daughter (it's her child savings) and the other to my girlfriend.

[fceligoj]

You really need a Last Will and Testament in both your home country and in Thailand.

 

Also, when it comes to money distribution, even the closest relatives seem to forget agreements.  The easiest way is to put your gf name in your Thai will which covers any and all your assets in Thailand.

[Red Phoenix]

2 minutes ago, fceligoj said:

You really need a Last Will and Testament in both your home country and in Thailand.

 

Also, when it comes to money distribution, even the closest relatives seem to forget agreements.  The easiest way is to put your gf name in your Thai will which covers any and all your assets in Thailand.

Don't know in Thailand, but in my home-country when you are not officially married or have close blood-ties, your girlfriend or any other 'stranger' mentioned in your will will be heavily taxed on what he/she inherits from you.  

Obviously you can already gift/donate it to your girlfriend before your demise.  But that needs to be done - at least in my home-country - more than 6 months before you die, as otherwise the gifts will be retracted. 

> In my specific circumstance, where what I would write in my will would not be different than the normal heritage procedure (all my possessions going to my 3 children), there is no need for me to make an official will.  But you could say that I have made an 'informal will' by making arrangements with my 3 children that after my demise they will provide part of their heritage to my girlfriend (thus avoiding her being heavily taxed on it).  Obviously that requires full trust in that my children would honor that agreement.  And in my case there is no doubt about that, as I also have full confidence in the 'in laws' (a factor to take into consideration whenever money is involved).     

[CMBob]

Technically, a Will which is valid in the jurisdiction you make it can be used in any country; however, there are translation and certification requirements that make it wise to have a separate Will for Thai assets and home country assets.  Also, will avoid a lot of hassle if you can name a Thai executor in your Thai Will and a home-country executor for your home country assets.

 

As a respectful note to Red Phoenix, I've witnessed a fair number of probate fights (who gets to be the executor, who gets what, and many petty things) where the parent was sure that the kids would get along and follow their parent's verbal wishes.  If you want to guarantee major issues (who is the executor, who gets what) don't create wars, a Will is the vehicle to accomplish that.

[Red Phoenix]

25 minutes ago, CMBob said:

Technically, a Will which is valid in the jurisdiction you make it can be used in any country; however, there are translation and certification requirements that make it wise to have a separate Will for Thai assets and home country assets.  Also, will avoid a lot of hassle if you can name a Thai executor in your Thai Will and a home-country executor for your home country assets.

 

As a respectful note to Red Phoenix, I've witnessed a fair number of probate fights (who gets to be the executor, who gets what, and many petty things) where the parent was sure that the kids would get along and follow their parent's verbal wishes.  If you want to guarantee major issues (who is the executor, who gets what) don't create wars, a Will is the vehicle to accomplish that.

~ Thanks and agreed. 

Your comment is also a reminder to me that I didn't consider the home-country executor yet, but will have to do some research on that aspect as I definitely do not want it to be the notary that executed the heritage of both my parents.