Popular Post heybruce Posted February 11 Popular Post Share Posted February 11 3 hours ago, Hanaguma said: Not this tired old shibboleth again. There is no such thing as work Americans dont want to do. There IS work that Americans won't do for the wages that an illegal immigrant would accept. The majority of farm labour and food processing jobs are still held by Americans and legal residents. More than 90% of hospitality workers are the same. 80% in construction, as well as housekeeping/maid jobs. So what are the jobs that Americans aren't doing again? https://www.americanprogress.org/press/release-millions-undocumented-immigrants-essential-americas-recovery-new-report-shows/ That old shibboleth. Employers aren't going to pay high wages for legal residents if they can get away with paying lower wages to illegal immigrants. So where is the harsh crackdown on the employers of illegal workers? BTW: What do you think would happen to the prices of domestically produced food if all the employers in the farm to table process had to pay wages high enough to attract legal workers? I'll tell you, the prices would shoot up, people would buy more imported food, US farmers would scale back or stop production, and the Republicans would gleefully blame it on the Democrats. That's why Republicans never crack down on the employers of illegals when they are in charge. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candide Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 (edited) 4 hours ago, Hanaguma said: Not this tired old shibboleth again. There is no such thing as work Americans dont want to do. There IS work that Americans won't do for the wages that an illegal immigrant would accept. The majority of farm labour and food processing jobs are still held by Americans and legal residents. More than 90% of hospitality workers are the same. 80% in construction, as well as housekeeping/maid jobs. So what are the jobs that Americans aren't doing again? https://www.americanprogress.org/press/release-millions-undocumented-immigrants-essential-americas-recovery-new-report-shows/ Yet the majority of agricultural workers are foreign born. There must be a pattern.... Are farm jobs all equivalent? Some jobs are worse than others. For example, sitting on a tractor is not the same as hand-picking fruits. Edited February 11 by candide 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiian Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 1 hour ago, heybruce said: Provide a link to the CBO statement if you want me to comment on it. I'll make it easy for your, here's a link to the CBO Ten year Projection. https://www.cbo.gov/data/budget-economic-data Now show us where it states that illegal immigrants will force down wages. I want to read the context in which that statement was made. Some people in the country worked under the table. However the "respectable" employers of illegals, like the Trump resorts, prefer illegals with fake papers so that they can pretend to not know the workers were illegal. Those employers deduct taxes and Social Security. How many work under the table and how many pay taxes? I don't know, and neither do you. How does having a declining working age population supporting an increasing number of retirees benefit anyone? https://www.wnd.com/2024/02/bidens-immigration-surge-push-wages-years-cbo-says/ The first source I read misquoted the CBO and blamed illegal immigration entirely. This link says both legal and illegal immigration will be the cause of wage stagnation. Difficult to know who to trust. When it comes to tax cheats of all sorts, the IRS usually calls it a high number to justify more money for enforcement. The fact is, whether high or low, these people are lawbreakers and should be dealt with. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heybruce Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Hawaiian said: https://www.wnd.com/2024/02/bidens-immigration-surge-push-wages-years-cbo-says/ The first source I read misquoted the CBO and blamed illegal immigration entirely. This link says both legal and illegal immigration will be the cause of wage stagnation. Difficult to know who to trust. When it comes to tax cheats of all sorts, the IRS usually calls it a high number to justify more money for enforcement. The fact is, whether high or low, these people are lawbreakers and should be dealt with. You come up with some real doozies when it comes to sources: "WND (formerly WorldNetDaily) is an American far-right[1] news website. It is known for promoting fake news[2] and conspiracy theories,[3] including the false claim that former President Barack Obama was born outside the United States.[4] " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WorldNetDaily Your link does not direct me to the part of the CBO publication that stated illegal immigration would reduce wages. It did conclude with a note of honesty: "A CBO spokesperson directed the Daily Caller News Foundation to a statement made by CBO Director Phill Swagel. Swagel’s statement did not address the impact of increased immigration on wages. The statement did point out the impact CBO found immigration will have on the deficit. “In our projections, the deficit is also smaller than it was last year because economic output is greater, partly as a result of more people working,” Swagel wrote. “The labor force in 2033 is larger by 5.2 million people, mostly because of higher net immigration.” I don't know why you brought up the IRS. I merely pointed out that a lot of illegal workers do have taxes withheld and paid by their employers. Edited February 11 by heybruce 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earlinclaifornia Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 2 hours ago, candide said: Yet the majority of agricultural workers are foreign born. There must be a pattern.... Are farm jobs all equivalent? Some jobs are worse than others. For example, sitting on a tractor is not the same as hand-picking fruits. The majority (70%) of agricultural workers were foreign born. https://www.ncfh.org/facts-about-agricultural-workers-fact-sheet.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candide Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 (edited) 18 minutes ago, earlinclaifornia said: The majority (70%) of agricultural workers were foreign born. https://www.ncfh.org/facts-about-agricultural-workers-fact-sheet.html And if it could be distinguished between 'good' agricultural jobs and agricultural <deleted> jobs, I would not be surprised if most of the <deleted>job workers were foreign-born (with a significant share being illegals). Edited February 11 by candide 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanaguma Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 (edited) 3 hours ago, heybruce said: That old shibboleth. Employers aren't going to pay high wages for legal residents if they can get away with paying lower wages to illegal immigrants. So where is the harsh crackdown on the employers of illegal workers? BTW: What do you think would happen to the prices of domestically produced food if all the employers in the farm to table process had to pay wages high enough to attract legal workers? I'll tell you, the prices would shoot up, people would buy more imported food, US farmers would scale back or stop production, and the Republicans would gleefully blame it on the Democrats. That's why Republicans never crack down on the employers of illegals when they are in charge. You tell me, it is your assertion. What is the rise in prices for 'food'? You need to break it down by category because in many areas of agriculture there aren't so many illegal workers. Another shibboleth without details to back it up. I think most Americans would gladly pay an extra quarter for their lettuce if it was being harvested by American citizens or legal residents. I agree that those who employ illegal workers should be punished. But the problem starts at the border. Close it off and then work towards a solution for the ones already in the country. ETA: most of the ag. workers are Mexican born. The current 8 million illegal immigrants that Biden has let into the country are from myriad nations, a minority from Mexico. They aren't happily harvesting for US farms- they are heading for cities, disrupting life for the residents, using/abusing social services meant for Americans and legal residents, shooting at cops, etc. These are NOT your father's generation farm labor. Edited February 11 by Hanaguma 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanaguma Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 1 minute ago, candide said: And if it could be distinguished between 'good' agricultural jobs and agricultural <deleted> jobs, I would not be surprised if most of the <deleted>job workers were foreign-born (with a significant share being illegals). "Foreign born" does not mean illegal immigrants. Are you a bit bigoted to make such an assumption? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candide Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 Just now, Hanaguma said: "Foreign born" does not mean illegal immigrants. Are you a bit bigoted to make such an assumption? I know, and I never made this assumption. However, it suggests that American born may not be so interested in these jobs, and leave them to foreigners, whether legal or illegal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danderman123 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 11 hours ago, impulse said: B) Rosa Parks sat in the front of a bus. Admirable, sure. But it's hardly the same as forging a democratic country or writing a constitution. Unless you're a revisionist. Do you think that Rosa Parks should have simply gone to the back of the bus? Do you long for the days of Segregation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heybruce Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 1 hour ago, Hanaguma said: You tell me, it is your assertion. What is the rise in prices for 'food'? You need to break it down by category because in many areas of agriculture there aren't so many illegal workers. Another shibboleth without details to back it up. I think most Americans would gladly pay an extra quarter for their lettuce if it was being harvested by American citizens or legal residents. I agree that those who employ illegal workers should be punished. But the problem starts at the border. Close it off and then work towards a solution for the ones already in the country. ETA: most of the ag. workers are Mexican born. The current 8 million illegal immigrants that Biden has let into the country are from myriad nations, a minority from Mexico. They aren't happily harvesting for US farms- they are heading for cities, disrupting life for the residents, using/abusing social services meant for Americans and legal residents, shooting at cops, etc. These are NOT your father's generation farm labor. I'll back up my claim by category after you do the same for your claim that eliminating illegal workers would only raise the price of lettuce by a quarter. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danderman123 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 (edited) 5 hours ago, heybruce said: 1 hour ago, Hanaguma said: I agree that those who employ illegal workers should be punished. But the problem starts at the border. Close it off and then work towards a solution for the ones already in the country. Define "close the border". How would closing the border impact illegals working on big farms? Edited February 11 by Danderman123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanaguma Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 1 hour ago, heybruce said: I'll back up my claim by category after you do the same for your claim that eliminating illegal workers would only raise the price of lettuce by a quarter. It was just a speculative example, based on your original claim. The actual price increase may vary. Now, on to your claims... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanaguma Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, Danderman123 said: Define "close the border". How would closing the border impact illegals working on big farms? "Close the border" means not permitting anyone to cross at other than official border crossings. Those who try get refused. If they enter the US they are detained until being returned to Mexico. It also means that people without valid visas or permissions to enter at border crossings are also refused. Those who claim asylum are detained until their claims can be adjudicated. Invalid claims mean returned to Mexico. ETA: illegals found working on big farms would be given a chance to prove their case as to why they should be allowed to stay in the US. I'm not a totally heartless a..hole. People who have stayed long term (more than 10years) should get some consideration- perhaps enrolment in a guest worker kind of scheme. Their employers would get ONE warning to cease and desist from this day forward. But the 8 million who came in the past three years are not working on farms. Edited February 11 by Hanaguma 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiian Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 (edited) 10 hours ago, heybruce said: You come up with some real doozies when it comes to sources: "WND (formerly WorldNetDaily) is an American far-right[1] news website. It is known for promoting fake news[2] and conspiracy theories,[3] including the false claim that former President Barack Obama was born outside the United States.[4] " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WorldNetDaily Your link does not direct me to the part of the CBO publication that stated illegal immigration would reduce wages. It did conclude with a note of honesty: "A CBO spokesperson directed the Daily Caller News Foundation to a statement made by CBO Director Phill Swagel. Swagel’s statement did not address the impact of increased immigration on wages. The statement did point out the impact CBO found immigration will have on the deficit. “In our projections, the deficit is also smaller than it was last year because economic output is greater, partly as a result of more people working,” Swagel wrote. “The labor force in 2033 is larger by 5.2 million people, mostly because of higher net immigration.” I don't know why you brought up the IRS. I merely pointed out that a lot of illegal workers do have taxes withheld and paid by their employers. I still say that illegal immigrants cost the country more than they contribute. https://edworkforce.house.gov/uploadfiles/9.13.23_camarota_testimony_help_subcommittee_hearing_on_open_borders_and_workforce.pdf Edited February 11 by Hawaiian correct link 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danderman123 Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 1 hour ago, Hawaiian said: I still say that illegal immigrants cost the country more than they contribute. https://edworkforce.house.gov/uploadfiles/9.13.23_camarota_testimony_help_subcommittee_hearing_on_open_borders_and_workforce.pdf your link doesn't work. Tell me about the financial impact of illegals on Social security. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 The nightmare has already started. Trump’s message to Putin is causing concern: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/11/nato-chief-jens-stoltenberg-promises-forceful-response-to-attack-as-trump-remarks-dismissed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiian Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 27 minutes ago, Danderman123 said: your link doesn't work. Tell me about the financial impact of illegals on Social security. Ask heybruce. He seems to have all the answers. I know he doesn't like mine. The link I provided keeps on changing. I will see what I can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 11 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said: The nightmare has already started. Trump’s message to Putin is causing concern: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/11/nato-chief-jens-stoltenberg-promises-forceful-response-to-attack-as-trump-remarks-dismissed Trumps message was to NATO members states , telling them to pay their way . He wasn't messaging Putin at all . The USA doesn't control NATO and no rules have ben changed . Anti Trumpers just using it as ammunition to attack him 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said: Trumps message was to NATO members states , telling them to pay their way . He wasn't messaging Putin at all . The USA doesn't control NATO and no rules have ben changed . Anti Trumpers just using it as ammunition to attack him His statement to the audience of his political rally has without question been heard by Putin. As explained by representatives of NATO and member nations of NATO, Trump’s statement undermines the security of all members and is a very clear message to Putin. Of course Trump supporters have no problems at all with Trump undermining western security in favor of Putin, they are deaf to the obvious. Edited February 11 by Chomper Higgot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Nick Carter icp Posted February 11 Popular Post Share Posted February 11 17 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said: His statement to the audience of his political rally has without question been heard by Putin. As explained by representatives of NATO and member nations of NATO, Trump’s statement undermines the security of all members and is a very clear message to Putin. Of course Trump supporters have no problems at all with Trump undermining western security in favor of Putin, they are deaf to the obvious. Yes, I m sure that Putin heard it , and Putin has the intelligence to realise that Trump was just sending a message to NATO Countries telling them to pay their bills and just using Russia to scare them 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 9 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said: Yes, I m sure that Putin heard it , and Putin has the intelligence to realise that Trump was just sending a message to NATO Countries telling them to pay their bills and just using Russia to scare them You rather proved my point: 30 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said: Of course Trump supporters have no problems at all with Trump undermining western security in favor of Putin, they are deaf to the obvious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said: You rather proved my point: How did you come to that conclusion ? I made the point that Putin wouldn't take Trumps statement to mean literally . Once again, you are just looking for an excuse to attack Trump 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat is a type of crazy Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said: Trumps message was to NATO members states , telling them to pay their way . He wasn't messaging Putin at all . The USA doesn't control NATO and no rules have ben changed . Anti Trumpers just using it as ammunition to attack him The premise of NATO isn't like an electricity bill that you all pay the full amount or lose your access. It is fair to ask that people pay but Trump's cavalier comments put the whole stability of NATO on shaky ground and of course gives Putin a good further reason to want a Trump win in 2024. Edited February 11 by Fat is a type of crazy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiian Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 (edited) 1 hour ago, Danderman123 said: your link doesn't work. Tell me about the financial impact of illegals on Social security. Sorry, this is the best I can do. https://cis.org/sites/default/files/2023-09/camarota-testimony-9-13.pdf Link will say "Page Not Found" Then: Click on Topics Under Topics click "Costs of Immigration" Under Sub Topics click "Wages,Jobs, and Poverty" Then scroll down to "The Impact of Biden's Open Border On the American Workforce" Edited February 11 by Hawaiian Correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 6 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said: The premise of NATO isn't like an electricity bill that you all pay the full amount or lose your access. It is fair to ask that people pay but Trump's cavalier comments put the whole stability of NATO on shaky ground and of course gives Putin a good further reason to want a Trump win in 2024. I do think that its fair enough, each Country should pay their fair and agreed share . Its like people who don't pay for insurance and then complain because insurance doesn't cover them Pay to be insured and contribute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 17 minutes ago, Fat is a type of crazy said: and of course gives Putin a good further reason to want a Trump win in 2024. This! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chomper Higgot Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 8 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said: I do think that its fair enough, each Country should pay their fair and agreed share . Its like people who don't pay for insurance and then complain because insurance doesn't cover them Pay to be insured and contribute I think it’s more like inviting criminals to attack people who haven’t paid their full insurance. And perhaps letting a criminal know who’s his best bet if he wishes to continue with his criminality after 2024. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter icp Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 Just now, Chomper Higgot said: I think it’s more like inviting criminals to attack people who haven’t paid their full insurance. And perhaps letting a criminal know who’s his best bet if he wishes to continue with his criminality after 2024. Do you realise that Trump isn't the President and that Biden is ? So Trumps words have no effect on the situation . Biden is the President Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 18 hours ago, spidermike007 said: There is no question about that, they had so much dirt on Trump they knew that he could be easily manipulated. Nobody really knows the extent of Kompramat that they had on the big guy. Videotaped Moscow orgies? And what else? Videotaped Moscow orgies? And what else? To believe something without proof makes someone ( insert favourite description of a gullible person ). 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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