Israel is at War - General discussion (pt3)

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

What I did do, explaining that for the THIRD TIME, was to show you that your argument blaming Hamas for the deaths of their "human shields" was faulty, and I used the festival as an example of that faulty reasoning. 

 

 

   But that just doesn't make any sense at all .

There is no logic behind that reasoning .

Hamas deliberately used Human shields for protection 

The festival attendees were not used as Human shields and they had nothing to do with the war and were not put there by the IDF or the Israeli Government .

   There are no similarities between the festival attendees and the Hamas human shields

[WDSmart]

Human Shields

To all pro-Israeli posters:

Let me try to quash this argument once and for all. I'll give you a similar situation and then ask you a question. I'd like you all to answer it.

Situation: The police are chasing a man who has just committed multiple homicides. He breaks into a house, gathers up a family (man, woman, and two kids), and barricades himself in a room with them. The police enter the house and break down the door to the room. The murderer is armed and is in a corner of the room holding the family, who are now bound, in front of him.

Question: Is it okay for the police to shoot the family, the "human shields," to be able to kill the murderer? 

[Neeranam]

11 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I agree, and I hope you will also agree it was the IDF that KILLED the "human shields," not Hamas. 

Human shields are to stop people with any conscience from attacking. IDF attack... Not caring and actually rejoicing as seen in videos. 

[transam]

5 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Human shields are to stop people with any conscience from attacking. IDF attack... Not caring and actually rejoicing as seen in videos. 

Human shields are for terrorist cowards who do not care about their own.

 

Try opening your eyes and minimal gray cells........

[Nick Carter icp]

7 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Human Shields

To all pro-Israeli posters:

Let me try to quash this argument once and for all. I'll give you a similar situation and then ask you a question. I'd like you all to answer it.

Situation: The police are chasing a man who has just committed multiple homicides. He breaks into a house, gathers up a family (man, woman, and two kids), and barricades himself in a room with them. The police enter the house and break down the door to the room. The murderer is armed and is in a corner of the room holding the family, who are now bound, in front of him.

Question: Is it okay for the police to shoot the family, the "human shields," to be able to kill the murderer? 

 

   Don't make up hypothetical stories and try to equate it with Hamas .

If there's a war situation and one side uses Human shields , then the people using Human shields are responsible for any deaths .

   Hamas could just surround themselves with Human shields and march from one end of Israel to the other whilst bombing Israel , whilst being protected by human shields 

[Wobblybob]

11 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

This is more faulty reasoning. If that were true, they could not be called "human shields." They would just be the actual "terrorists." 

Stop trying to twist posts to suit your agenda, you know as well as the next man that Hamas are using their own people as human shields and seem quite happy for them to achieve martyrdom. Just the same when a terrorist misfired rocket hit a hospital at the beginning of this war, (well it hit the car park) and Hamas claimed it killed 500 civilians mostly women and children, the pro Palestian mob couldn't get enough it, they thought all their birthdays had come at once and when the truth was finally revealed it went down like a lead balloon with the baying crowd. You see when you are desperate to slur the Israelis all sense and reasoning goes out of the window. 

[WDSmart]

6 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Don't make up hypothetical stories and try to equate it with Hamas .

If there's a war situation and one side uses Human shields , then the people using Human shields are responsible for any deaths .

   Hamas could just surround themselves with Human shields and march from one end of Israel to the other whilst bombing Israel , whilst being protected by human shields 

I was hoping for a "yes" or "no," but, as usual, your answer is just avoiding the question. 

Is it okay to kill "human shields" to get to someone or some group you want to kill?

[Nick Carter icp]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I was hoping for a "yes" or "no," but, as usual, your answer is just avoiding the question. 

 

   You asked a question about a made up situation which had no connection to the events in this thread .

   Your question has nothing to do with this thread and thus doesn't need to be answered 

[Bkk Brian]

9 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I was hoping for a "yes" or "no," but, as usual, your answer is just avoiding the question. 

Is it okay to kill "human shields" to get to someone or some group you want to kill?

You do talk nonsense and create noise to cover the reality of what is going on. Hamas see the human shields as a necessary sacrifice, so to them yes its ok for them to be killed. The IDF do everything they can to avoid killing them:

 

The reality is that when it comes to avoiding civilian harm, there is no modern comparison to Israel's war against Hamas. Israel is not fighting a battle like Fallujah, Mosul, or Raqqa; it is fighting a war involving synchronous major urban battles. No military in modern history has faced over 30,000 urban defenders in more than seven cities using human shields and hiding in hundreds of miles of underground networks purposely built under civilian sites, while holding hundreds of hostages.

Despite the unique challenges Israel faces in its war against Hamas, it has implemented more measures to prevent civilian casualties than any other military in history.

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613

[WDSmart]

23 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   You asked a question about a made up situation which had no connection to the events in this thread .

   Your question has nothing to do with this thread and thus doesn't need to be answered 

Your excuse above should read, "Can't be answered by me without weakening my position." 

[Nick Carter icp]

Just now, WDSmart said:

Your excuse above should read, "Can't be answered by me without weakening my position." 

 

   You made up a story that has no connection with the situation is this thread .

The Police are not chasing man who has just committed multiple homicides , so your question has no relevance to this thread about a war .

   How you imaginary man being chased by police should be dealt with could well be different to how Hamas would be dealt with 

[WDSmart]

22 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You do talk nonsense and create noise to cover the reality of what is going on. Hamas see the human shields as a necessary sacrifice, so to them yes its ok for them to be killed. The IDF do everything they can to avoid killing them:

 

The reality is that when it comes to avoiding civilian harm, there is no modern comparison to Israel's war against Hamas. Israel is not fighting a battle like Fallujah, Mosul, or Raqqa; it is fighting a war involving synchronous major urban battles. No military in modern history has faced over 30,000 urban defenders in more than seven cities using human shields and hiding in hundreds of miles of underground networks purposely built under civilian sites, while holding hundreds of hostages.

Despite the unique challenges Israel faces in its war against Hamas, it has implemented more measures to prevent civilian casualties than any other military in history.

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613

Well, IDF's methods of preventing civilian casualties aren't working very well, and all the world knows it. 

Gaza death toll surpasses 30,000 but it's an incomplete count : NPR

[Wobblybob]

Just now, WDSmart said:

Well, IDF's methods of preventing civilian casualties aren't working very well, and all the world knows it. 

Gaza death toll surpasses 30,000 but it's an incomplete count : NPR

Untill you know the breakdown of the spurious Hamas figures they are as much use as one of your analogies. 😂😂😂

[Bkk Brian]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Well, IDF's methods of preventing civilian casualties aren't working very well, and all the world knows it. 

Gaza death toll surpasses 30,000 but it's an incomplete count : NPR

From your own link

 

"13,000 or so deaths in its overall total of 30,000 are based on accounts from "reliable media sources," though the ministry doesn't cite or say which sources those are"

 

If the IDF were not minimizing then the figure would be much higher, read my link

[Nick Carter icp]

13 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Well, IDF's methods of preventing civilian casualties aren't working very well, and all the world knows it. 

Gaza death toll surpasses 30,000 but it's an incomplete count : NPR

 

    About 12 000 of those killed have been Hamas terrorists , so the number of civilians killed has been very low , the enemy combatants to civilians killed ratio is usually much higher than that in wars 

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

Human Shields

To all pro-Israeli posters:

Let me try to quash this argument once and for all. I'll give you a similar situation and then ask you a question. I'd like you all to answer it.

Situation: The police are chasing a man who has just committed multiple homicides. He breaks into a house, gathers up a family (man, woman, and two kids), and barricades himself in a room with them. The police enter the house and break down the door to the room. The murderer is armed and is in a corner of the room holding the family, who are now bound, in front of him.

Question: Is it okay for the police to shoot the family, the "human shields," to be able to kill the murderer? 

 

   Keep it to the current situation :

    If a terror group attacks another Country and then goes back to home soil with hostages .

Should the attacked Country then go after those terrorists and free the hostages , or should the attacked Country just forget about the terror attack and forget about  their hostages , for the reason that the terrorists are using their own people as human shields .

   Should Israel surrender to the  terrorists  to save Palestinian human shields ?

[WDSmart]

32 minutes ago, Wobblybob said:

38 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Well, IDF's methods of preventing civilian casualties aren't working very well, and all the world knows it. 

Gaza death toll surpasses 30,000 but it's an incomplete count : NPR

Untill you know the breakdown of the spurious Hamas figures they are as much use as one of your analogies. 😂😂😂

So, would you argue with a figure of 20,000 or even 10,000? Even if the number of civilians killed were as low as that, IDF's action would still be deplorable. 

[WDSmart]

34 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

From your own link

 

"13,000 or so deaths in its overall total of 30,000 are based on accounts from "reliable media sources," though the ministry doesn't cite or say which sources those are"

 

If the IDF were not minimizing then the figure would be much higher, read my link

If the IDF were not indiscriminately bombing, killing everyone they thought might be a terrorist, and, oh yes, killing "human shields, the overall total would be much, much lower.

[WDSmart]

28 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

    About 12 000 of those killed have been Hamas terrorists , so the number of civilians killed has been very low , the enemy combatants to civilians killed ratio is usually much higher than that in wars 

So you think 18,000 civilians killed is "very low"? Wow! 😞 

[Jingthing]

46 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Well, IDF's methods of preventing civilian casualties aren't working very well, and all the world knows it. 

Gaza death toll surpasses 30,000 but it's an incomplete count : NPR

The IDF never said prevent. That's impossible. They are trying to reduce. 

[WDSmart]

24 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Keep it to the current situation :

    If a terror group attacks another Country and then goes back to home soil with hostages .

Should the attacked Country then go after those terrorists and free the hostages , or should the attacked Country just forget about the terror attack and forget about  their hostages , for the reason that the terrorists are using their own people as human shields .

   Should Israel surrender to the  terrorists  to save Palestinian human shields ?

My answer: No. Israel should negotiate with the terrorists to save the lives of both the hostages, the "human shields," and even combatants on both sides. 

See how you should answer questions? With a "yes" or "no" (or I don't know), followed, if necessary, by an explanation.

[Nick Carter icp]

Just now, WDSmart said:

So you think 18,000 civilians killed is "very low"? Wow! 😞 

 

   It is , compared to other wars .

About an average of 20 000 civilians have been killed in Iraq/Afghanistan every year since 2001

Nearly 500 000 civilians have been killed there since 2001

[WDSmart]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

The IDF never said prevent. That's impossible. They are trying to reduce. 

I took the term "prevent" from Bkk Brian's post, which is at the beginning of this thread of posts:

"Despite the unique challenges Israel faces in its war against Hamas, it has implemented more measures to prevent civilian casualties than any other military in history."

[Wobblybob]

5 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

So, would you argue with a figure of 20,000 or even 10,000? Even if the number of civilians killed were as low as that, IDF's action would still be deplorable. 

I would argue that any death of innocent civilians is tragic, but under the circumstances Hamas has no one but themselves to blame. At the end of the day the Israelis are there to do a job and that is to rid the dangers from these phycopathic killers and secure the release of the hostages, they must never repeat the massacres that happened on 7/10, the prelude to this war.

 

[Nick Carter icp]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

My answer: No. Israel should negotiate with the terrorists to save the lives of both the hostages, the "human shields," and even combatants on both sides. 

See how you should answer questions? With a "yes" or "no" (or I don't know), followed, if necessary, by an explanation.

 

   Then there will be regular hostage taking , and every hostage taking would mean Israel giving up more and more concessions .

   Israel would have to agree to all Hamas demands , Hamas would control the Israeli Government and give orders telling them what do to .

   Israel would have to  give Hamas the keys to Israel and Israelis all pack their bags and emigrate and go and live somewhere else

[Bkk Brian]

8 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

If the IDF were not indiscriminately bombing, killing everyone they thought might be a terrorist, and, oh yes, killing "human shields, the overall total would be much, much lower.

If Hamas released the hostages and surrendered there would be zero killing. Enough of your games and noise to cover the evil intent of Hamas

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, WDSmart said:

I was hoping for a "yes" or "no," but, as usual, your answer is just avoiding the question. 

Is it okay to kill "human shields" to get to someone or some group you want to kill?

I'd have asked him if it's OK to destroy an entire building full of women and children to kill one Hamas in the building.

I presume that is why they drop very large bombs on a building full of innocent children, destroying the entire building and burying many of the children under the rubble where they can't be rescued because israelis won't allow enough fuel in to move the diggers.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

So you think 18,000 civilians killed is "very low"? Wow! 😞 

I wonder how many dead children the poster you quoted would consider excessive?

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

If the IDF were not indiscriminately bombing, killing everyone they thought might be a terrorist, and, oh yes, killing "human shields, the overall total would be much, much lower.

You could consider it from the point of view that by killing so many it allows the ones left alive to eat a bit more, considering the israelis are only allowing a bare minimum amount of food in and Gazans are starving. Israelis are so considerate in that way.

[WDSmart]

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

If Hamas released the hostages and surrendered there would be zero killing. Enough of your games and noise to cover the evil intent of Hamas

I'm not trying to cover the evil intent of Hamas. I'm trying to reveal to you the evil, revengeful actions of the IDF.