The questions posed are not exactly pertinent or relevant to most of our situations. In my case I have never attempted to integrate, in over 60 years, but I have always managed to remain friendly with most of the Thais I know or have known.

2 hours ago, FruitPudding said:

 

I don't get it. What's family emergency got to do with it?

A chance to prove yourself out.  Will you be helpful or not? 

2 hours ago, Kinnock said:

That's not accurate is it?  We could buy an Almera.

What is an Almera and how would that help in an emergency????

2 hours ago, moe666 said:

Why bother, I just keep on being me and fly below the radar as much as possible. I a happy with that and I have no need to put my name up in lifhts.

 

... and if you get along well with neighbours, help each other out, mix well with Thai's and foreigners in your community etc and you are comfortable here as you would be anywhere else, then it would seem you are well 'settled' and perhaps that means well integrated into society... 

 

... but, if by flying below the radar, you mean not speaking with others, keeping yourself to yourself and having no friends etc then it perhaps means that while you have settled in your own way, you haven't integrated.

 

 

I tend to keep myself to myself, but having been here a long time I have a lot of Thai and Western friends. 

Its more difficult to be part of the 'community' in the middle of a city like Bangkok, nevertheless, its easy to feel normal when doing every day things around the area.... 

... I agree, there's no need to draw loads of attention (name up in lights)..... but we should be able to say hi to those others sharing the same areas as we do, and perhaps that is as much polite integration as there needs to be. 

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Kinnock said:

Thailand is for Thai people, and we will always be visitors. 

 

Love the way this sentence is so commonly used on this forum as if someone has had their urethral epiphany and figured they'd pish-out their self perceived liquid gold completely oblivious to their lack of originality....

 

... here's some more similar golden droplets of outstanding forum daring and originality....   'the farang is always at fault'... or even better... 'if you dont like it here go home'

 

 

2 hours ago, Kinnock said:

Have you ever arrived at the airport and been greeted by a non-Thai immigration officer?

 

Erm...  

 

 

2 hours ago, Kinnock said:

Compare that to The Islamic Republic of Heathrow.

 

Are they 'Non-English' Immigration officers at Heathrow ????..... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

.. but, if by flying below the radar, you mean not speaking with others, keeping yourself to yourself and having no friends etc then it perhaps means that while you have settled in your own way, you haven't integrated.

Sounds like almost the way I was in the USofA before I left.

1 hour ago, jerrymahoney said:

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

.. but, if by flying below the radar, you mean not speaking with others, keeping yourself to yourself and having no friends etc then it perhaps means that while you have settled in your own way, you haven't integrated.

Sounds like almost the way I was in the USofA before I left.

 

Well done on Surviving Waco...  

In my opinion, it is very difficult or almost impossible for a foreigner to integrate  fully in to another foreign society. Each country has its own unique way of life. Once you are an adult or a senior citizen, do you really think you can integrate 100% to a foreign society? I don't think so.

 

I've seen many children born in foreign countries, who had integrated very well in to the foreign society, but not 100%. This might be due to the parents trying to instil 'traditional' culture on to their off-spring and the close society they mingle with.

 

After a couple of generation, yes.

 

Foreigners trying to integrate into Thai society? This can be a very difficult task. First of all, the foreigners (majority) mindset will never allow that. Why?

 

Most foreigners here-in

1. Say they cant have an intelligent conversation with their own wife.
2. Accuse all Thais are stupid, corrupt, idiots etc.
3. Always has a superiority complex over the Thai people.

I feel the above two reasons suffice, to say it is an impossible task for a foreigner to fully intergrade into the Thai society. I may be wrong, please do correct me.

 

 

2 hours ago, 1FinickyOne said:

A chance to prove yourself out.

 

Please.....lol.

 

I'd like to see them prove themselves to the falang that they are his family.

 

2 hours ago, 1FinickyOne said:

 Will you be helpful or not? 

 

Don't farang usually feed half their wife's family anyway? Lol

 

That said, I don't have an extended Thai family anyway, and I probably wouldn't do anything special for them if I did.

 

What's that got to do with integration anyway?

46 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

Well done on Surviving Waco...  

Thank you. It wasn't Waco.  But when I lived in Oklahoma City, I used to park my car in back of the Murrah Federal building when using the OKC library in the EXACT spot where Timothy McVeigh placed his avenging Waco truck bomb.

 

But I had left OKC 3 years before.

11 hours ago, nobodysfriend said:

but the natives believe that they are superior to anyone else

To be fair I don't think you can blame Thai people for that.  From a very young age they are not just taught to love Thailand, they are more or less told that Thailand is the most wonderful place in the world, never been invaded, etc. etc.

 

Most, are taught very little about history on a world level.  My ex thought that the industrial revolution began in Japan.

On 3/9/2024 at 2:43 PM, FruitPudding said:

 

Please.....lol.

 

I'd like to see them prove themselves to the falang that they are his family.

 

 

Don't farang usually feed half their wife's family anyway? Lol

 

That said, I don't have an extended Thai family anyway, and I probably wouldn't do anything special for them if I did.

 

What's that got to do with integration anyway?

They do things for me all the time - we have a family compound and someone is always cooking something which they offer me all the time. They take care of anything that I might need. They take care of the dogs when we go away. Yes, I contribute financially which is very easy for me. I like them and want to see them have a good life. 

 

What are you not seeing? When you live together with a family in a communal way, that is assimilation and integration. We all help each other in any way we can. When my wife's dad was being diagnosed, his life imminently in the balance, he left medical decisions to me. Though it was a responsibility I did not want, he trusted me more than his own or anyone else's judgment... 

 

There are rewards of closeness that you may not see. And if you are not the giving sort, they may not be there for you. This is not necessarily the case for others. 

20 minutes ago, 1FinickyOne said:

They do things for me all the time - we have a family compound and someone is always cooking something which they offer me all the time. They take care of anything that I might need. They take care of the dogs when we go away. Yes, I contribute financially which is very easy for me. I like them and want to see them have a good life. 

 

What are you not seeing? When you live together with a family in a communal way, that is assimilation and integration. We all help each other in any way we can. When my wife's dad was being diagnosed, his life imminently in the balance, he left medical decisions to me. Though it was a responsibility I did not want, he trusted me more than his own or anyone else's judgment... 

 

There are rewards of closeness that you may not see. And if you are not the giving sort, they may not be there for you. This is not necessarily the case for others. 

 

Your mileage may vary. 

 

Glad it's worked out for you so far

As mentioned by others. Thai people do not want to "integrate' with anyone. Most don't know what the word means.

 

Same as Japan, South & North Korea, U.S.A., France, and many others. 

 

So there is no integration into Thai society. I don't care if you get PR, Thai passport, Yellow Book, Thai ID card, drivers license, if you ain't Thai you will never be allowed to integrate into Thai society.

 

Just look at all the comments on the TikTok guy recently talking about quitting the UK and moving to Thailand. Many comments about his British name and look(believe he was of Arab decent born in London) meaning he would never be British because he didn't look British. 

So your poll is meaningless. Not saying Thai people Don't tolerate non-Thais, you just will never be one. 

 

And to those that will comment that you speak, read ,and write Thai, all your friends are Thai, you have a Thai spouse & children, you, yourself are not Thai and all of these people know it and accept it. But you will never be  integrated as this would mean you have been accepted, or combined, with Thai society. This will never be allowed to happen.

2 minutes ago, rct99q said:

As mentioned by others. Thai people do not want to "integrate' with anyone. Most don't know what the word means.

 

Same as Japan, South & North Korea, U.S.A., France, and many others. 

 

So there is no integration into Thai society. I don't care if you get PR, Thai passport, Yellow Book, Thai ID card, drivers license, if you ain't Thai you will never be allowed to integrate into Thai society.

 

Just look at all the comments on the TikTok guy recently talking about quitting the UK and moving to Thailand. Many comments about his British name and look(believe he was of Arab decent born in London) meaning he would never be British because he didn't look British. 

So your poll is meaningless. Not saying Thai people Don't tolerate non-Thais, you just will never be one. 

 

And to those that will comment that you speak, read ,and write Thai, all your friends are Thai, you have a Thai spouse & children, you, yourself are not Thai and all of these people know it and accept it. But you will never be  integrated as this would mean you have been accepted, or combined, with Thai society. This will never be allowed to happen.

 

It seems your upstanding of the word 'integration' means 'complete and total assimilation into a society' such that we cannot be identified as being separate from it... 

 

Thus: From your perspective - Integration for any non-Thai is an impossibility. 

However, from the perspective of simply living normally within the Thai community and society, then integration from that aspect is readily achievable and I would suggest quite the norm for many non-Thai's living here in Thailand. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 3/9/2024 at 2:35 PM, ravip said:

Foreigners trying to integrate into Thai society? This can be a very difficult task. First of all, the foreigners (majority) mindset will never allow that. Why?

 

Most foreigners here-in

1. Say they cant have an intelligent conversation with their own wife.
2. Accuse all Thais are stupid, corrupt, idiots etc.
3. Always has a superiority complex over the Thai people.

I feel the above two reasons suffice, to say it is an impossible task for a foreigner to fully intergrade into the Thai society. I may be wrong, please do correct me.

 

I think you have highlighted some of the more prolific bigoted posters with your points 1-2-3...   these issues prevent the 'usual suspects' from ever having a mutually respectful relationship with anyone, let alone with those of a foreign host nation.

 

Most posters are not guilty of the above listed issues that prevent the development of mutually respectful friendships and relationships.

 

I see most of my friends as having 'integrated' - and by that I mean involved in mutually respectful friendships with Thai's and plenty of other nationalities within their area and community such that they 'fit in' just as anyone else in the area does...

 

... These friends can have intelligent conversations with their wives because they didn't pick them up in a bar, they met through friends of a similar socio-economic-educational status 

... These friend don't accuse all Thai's as being stupid, corrupt idiots... because thats not the way they see 'all Thai's... equally so, they are observant enough to see the corruption etc and are able to discuss such issues with Thai's within the society they have 'integrated'.

... These friends don't have a superiority complex over Thai people because they are frequently mixing and socialising with Thai friends of a similar socio-economic-educational status such that these 'feelings of superiority' never surface as they may with others mixing with those below their '*station'

(*station: for want of a better word / & it is a horrible snobby word to use and point to make, nevertheless its valid - if you are hanging around with labourers, motorcycle taxi guys, bar-girls and free-lancers etc - then its hardly any surprise that someone may feel they have a better knowledge of the world etc and through that develop feelings of superiority - but it has more to do with who people are integrating with than any degree of superiority).

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

It seems your upstanding of the word 'integration' means 'complete and total assimilation into a society' such that we cannot be identified as being separate from it... 

 

Thus: From your perspective - Integration for any non-Thai is an impossibility. 

However, from the perspective of simply living normally within the Thai community and society, then integration from that aspect is readily achievable and I would suggest quite the norm for many non-Thai's living here in Thailand. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I knew somebody would come along. 

Yes from the person (outsider) integrating into Thai society, one can certainly feel as though they have integrated. I live pretty much here as I do in Canada. Work, drive kid to school, parent teacher days, parties with the neighbors, work my garden, but I am, and always will be an outsider in the eyes of everyone including family.

 

I do agree simply living here normally within the community is a correct statement. That is in no way being integrated within a society. Had the OP question been - Do you simply live here in Thailand accepting all the restrictions placed upon all Non-Thai people as being acceptable for you? Then yes.

 

You won't agree, I don't really care, Thai society will never allow you to become an equal member of their society. Thus you can not integrated into Thai society. It will always be one sided.

 

Like marriage. One person says I do and believes they are married. But if the other person says I do but does not believe the words they say, or mean it, are you married? On paper, yes. In reality, no. Such is Thailand. 

 

I like living here. Love my lifestyle. Love my family & friends. I have a good life here. But would never, ever let my guard down believing I am one of them.

9 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

I think you have highlighted some of the more prolific bigoted posters with your points 1-2-3...   these issues prevent the 'usual suspects' from ever having a mutually respectful relationship with anyone, let alone with those of a foreign host nation.

 

Most posters are not guilty of the above listed issues that prevent the development of mutually respectful friendships and relationships.

 

I see most of my friends as having 'integrated' - and by that I mean involved in mutually respectful friendships with Thai's and plenty of other nationalities within their area and community such that they 'fit in' just as anyone else in the area does...

 

... These friends can have intelligent conversations with their wives because they didn't pick them up in a bar, they met through friends of a similar socio-economic-educational status 

... These friend don't accuse all Thai's as being stupid, corrupt idiots... because thats not the way they see 'all Thai's... equally so, they are observant enough to see the corruption etc and are able to discuss such issues with Thai's within the society they have 'integrated'.

... These friends don't have a superiority complex over Thai people because they are frequently mixing and socialising with Thai friends of a similar socio-economic-educational status such that these 'feelings of superiority' never surface as they may with others mixing with those below their '*station'

(*station: for want of a better word / & it is a horrible snobby word to use and point to make, nevertheless its valid - if you are hanging around with labourers, motorcycle taxi guys, bar-girls and free-lancers etc - then its hardly any surprise that someone may feel they have a better knowledge of the world etc and through that develop feelings of superiority - but it has more to do with who people are integrating with than any degree of superiority).

 

 

 

You just quoted the exact opposite of all the negative stereotypes people often use regarding Thailand. 555.

 

I am surprised you didn't mention food.

 

People say - sum tam is for the poor 

My friends - green papaya salad is a unique blend of flavours and textures - we are integrated.

 

Just caught me as funny.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

I think you have highlighted some of the more prolific bigoted posters with your points 1-2-3...   these issues prevent the 'usual suspects' from ever having a mutually respectful relationship with anyone, let alone with those of a foreign host nation.

 

I can't imagine they came here with those opinions. Why migrate to a place if you have such a low opinion of the locals?

 

Rather, through their interactions and experiences with the locals, they formed those opinions over time.

 

We should walk in someone else's shoes before jumping to conclusions.

 

 

3 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

I think you have highlighted some of the more prolific bigoted posters with your points 1-2-3...   these issues prevent the 'usual suspects' from ever having a mutually respectful relationship with anyone, let alone with those of a foreign host nation.

 

Most posters are not guilty of the above listed issues that prevent the development of mutually respectful friendships and relationships.

 

I see most of my friends as having 'integrated' - and by that I mean involved in mutually respectful friendships with Thai's and plenty of other nationalities within their area and community such that they 'fit in' just as anyone else in the area does...

 

... These friends can have intelligent conversations with their wives because they didn't pick them up in a bar, they met through friends of a similar socio-economic-educational status 

... These friend don't accuse all Thai's as being stupid, corrupt idiots... because thats not the way they see 'all Thai's... equally so, they are observant enough to see the corruption etc and are able to discuss such issues with Thai's within the society they have 'integrated'.

... These friends don't have a superiority complex over Thai people because they are frequently mixing and socialising with Thai friends of a similar socio-economic-educational status such that these 'feelings of superiority' never surface as they may with others mixing with those below their '*station'

(*station: for want of a better word / & it is a horrible snobby word to use and point to make, nevertheless its valid - if you are hanging around with labourers, motorcycle taxi guys, bar-girls and free-lancers etc - then its hardly any surprise that someone may feel they have a better knowledge of the world etc and through that develop feelings of superiority - but it has more to do with who people are integrating with than any degree of superiority).

 

 

 

You hit the nail right on it's head! 👌

51 minutes ago, FruitPudding said:

 

I can't imagine they came here with those opinions. Why migrate to a place if you have such a low opinion of the locals?

 

Rather, through their interactions and experiences with the locals, they formed those opinions over time.

 

We should walk in someone else's shoes before jumping to conclusions.

 

 

Why do guys go to Thailand to mostly hang out with other foreign guys? Never understood that.

30 minutes ago, Dolf said:

Why do guys go to Thailand to mostly hang out with other foreign guys? Never understood that.

 

 A sensible conversation

The hierarchical system in thailand does not contain a slot in the totem pole for foreigners.  Once you realize this everything they do makes sense.  Foreigners don't care about this, but they sure do.  Everything revolves around who is situated on which rung of the ladder.

 

There is a well defined pecking order and foreigners are not on it. Farm animals and even wild animals are in the hierarchy system.  But not foreigners. Never have been and never will be.

 

You should not try to integrate into thai society because you can't.  The hierachical structure does not contain a slot for foreigners by design.  

21 minutes ago, Mark Nothing said:

The hierarchical system in thailand does not contain a slot in the totem pole for foreigners.  Once you realize this everything they do makes sense.  Foreigners don't care about this, but they sure do.  Everything revolves around who is situated on which rung of the ladder.

 

There is a well defined pecking order and foreigners are not on it. Farm animals and even wild animals are in the hierarchy system.  But not foreigners. Never have been and never will be.

 

You should not try to integrate into thai society because you can't.  The hierachical structure does not contain a slot for foreigners by design.  

 

Ultimately,  this is the answer.

 

A lot of married farang won't like to admit this, but it is the true.

1 hour ago, Mark Nothing said:

The hierarchical system in thailand does not contain a slot in the totem pole for foreigners.  Once you realize this everything they do makes sense.  Foreigners don't care about this, but they sure do.  Everything revolves around who is situated on which rung of the ladder.

 

There is a well defined pecking order and foreigners are not on it. Farm animals and even wild animals are in the hierarchy system.  But not foreigners. Never have been and never will be.

 

You should not try to integrate into thai society because you can't.  The hierachical structure does not contain a slot for foreigners by design.  

I agree, but with one exception.  There is a slot for English Teachers on the Thai hierarchical ranking.

 

I mean real English teachers, not the convenient visa option.

 

It's not high on the ranking, but it's a recognised peg in the Thai system for foreigners.

 

When I try ro explain my work as a manager of a consultancy, I get confused looks, so it can be easier to say I'm an English teacher.  Teaching is seen as an honourable but low paid position. 

9 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

I agree, but with one exception.  There is a slot for English Teachers on the Thai hierarchical ranking.

 

I mean real English teachers, not the convenient visa option.

 

It's not high on the ranking, but it's a recognised peg in the Thai system for foreigners.

 

When I try ro explain my work as a manager of a consultancy, I get confused looks, so it can be easier to say I'm an English teacher.  Teaching is seen as an honourable but low paid position. 

 

I am not so sure. I think when it comes down to it, we are still farang. 

 

It's funny cos I've been in Thailand longer than my students. It kinda blows their minds when they find that out cos they hadn't conceived the thought that a foreigner could have been here longer than they have.

25 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

I agree, but with one exception.  There is a slot for English Teachers on the Thai hierarchical ranking.

 

I mean real English teachers, not the convenient visa option.

 

It's not high on the ranking, but it's a recognised peg in the Thai system for foreigners.

 

When I try ro explain my work as a manager of a consultancy, I get confused looks, so it can be easier to say I'm an English teacher.  Teaching is seen as an honourable but low paid position. 

 

I wonder about that... 

 

Teaching is seen as an honourable but low paid position for Thai's.

Teaching English is seen as 'bums' job at language schools and Thai schools. 

Teaching at high end International School yields greater respect.

 

Thus: while I agree, there is a slot for the English teachers, I don't think its one to aspire to, specifically 'English' teachers. 

 

 

As far as the well defined pecking order and no slot for the 'farang' I kind of disagree.

 

Thai's definitely struggle to place foreigners in a 'slot in the totem pole'....   But I'd add a little to that comment. 

 

1) Thai's of a lower socio-economic-educational status can identify when a foreigner is outside of (above) their 'slot' but may not care unless the situation dictates (thats the same for the same folk dealing with other Thai's too).

2) Thai's of a 'middling' socio-economic-educational status seem to struggle the most and rely on your career and 'contacts' or who you are with to gauge your 'position on the ladder'.... 

3) Very well educated Thai's can quickly gauge your status on the socio-economic-educational ladder through socio-phonetics, your behavior and general interaction. 

4) Very powerful Thai's seem not to care about anyone else's status unless someone is potentially 'above them' (Thai or foreign).

 

 

Obviously there are a lot of gaps in that thinly papered convenient facade, but the basics seem to hold true, in my experience at least.

 

Thai's want to know where to place us and struggle without the 'detail' which is why its often best to be 'introduced' to someone here, especially by someone who carries what would be considered 'status' as that also rubs off on the person being introduced. 

( Unless you're a retired monger with no Thai friends in which case it may be better to leave them guessing !!!... or not, depending on intended outcome !!!!   )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

Teaching English is seen as 'bums' job at language schools and Thai schools. 

Teaching at high end International School yields greater respect.

 

But most Thais don't even know the names of the high-end international schools, however they all know the old famous Thai schools.

 

You get plenty of respect when you work at one of those, but I still don't think it fits us in to the Thai hierarchy really. 

46 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

I agree, but with one exception.  There is a slot for English Teachers on the Thai hierarchical ranking.

 

I mean real English teachers, not the convenient visa option.

 

On this, I think there's real potential for throwing some real mix into the melee... 

 

Those retiree's who have had great / high profile careers... Perhaps as CEO's or an Airline Pilot etc... 

 

They settle in Thailand and want to do something and 'give back'...   They take a 40,000 baht per month Job as an English teacher, not for the money of course, but to remain active....  

They turn up at the Thai school in their BMW X5 and throw a complete spanner in the 'totem pole works' !!!

 

They're wealthier than the school head and director, they have a better career history...   their previous position was one of firm respect, they'd be a notch above their respective supervisor and employer if governing by 'previous employment' status alone...  but by current status their a few notches below on the 'totem pole'...    

 

... Ahh... head explodes... what to do now ???...      how do the Thai 'seniors' deal with this conundrum ? bury their head in the sand and ignore ?...   understand and welcome the experience with genuine mutual respect ?...   create problems, their childish ego can't handle this situation....   

 

 

-------

 

I had similar before...  Not through retirement, but through the position I held as an 'international' within a Thai based company. 

My income was higher, I had a good car etc... Turned up at the office... 

... the first issue...  Who's is that car ? (it was better than the bosses !!!)....    next issue, foreigners shouldn't be driving here, they'll have to have to use company transport !!!...  Loved it when they tried to provide me with a driver and car and I refused as I'd held a Thai driving licences for longer than the Thai driver they'd assigned to me... 

It then kind of went quiet after that...   They just didn't know where to place me until they got to know me a little more.

 

I also remember an immediate  'change' in attitude when meeting the GM for the first time.....  perhaps not the most politically correct lines of questioning, but I can't say I blame him... He asked if I had a Thai GF...  Yes... he immediately wanted to know what she did.... I was being 'gauged' by my associations....   I pointed out that she doing a Masters at Thammarsat Uni, his mood immediately changed.. he'd been to Thammarsat !!! 

At that point I was tentatively placed 'on the totem pole'...  not because of me, but because of the 'perceived level' of who I was associating with.

 

 

 

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, FruitPudding said:

But most Thais don't even know the names of the high-end international schools, however they all know the old famous Thai schools.

 

You get plenty of respect when you work at one of those, but I still don't think it fits us in to the Thai hierarchy really. 

 

Thats actually very true... 

 

I was on a course recently...  and was talking with the instructor... 

The instructor (going by position alone) is someone who the Thai's I know wold place below me on the 'Thai Totem Pole'....  

 

While talking he had no idea of my Son's school....  one of the best (international) schools in Thailand meant nothing to him (not that it mattered)...  but while some other Thai's knew of the school and commented at its reputation... for the instructor it may as well have been a temple school....   

 

This created an odd dynamic - It didn't matter to me at all, I was only there for one day, but the instructor tried emphasise an air of 'Ajan' superiority and in doing so, got a lot of things wrong which other Thai's of a higher social status (also on the course) picked up on....   

One of them was a Thai Army Colonel, a helicopter Pilot, excellent English, but we chatted in mixture of Thai and English (my Thai far worse than his English) - we got on well, had the course been a week instead of just one day we'd have perhaps ended up becoming friends...

... this really threw the instructor that a foreigner who's 'status' he could not place, fit in very neatly with someone he considered of far higher status....        

 

Thailand - very often an entertaining enigma...     and so are we to the Thai's in many cases...  just when someone may think they 'have us pegged'...   they will see us having a beer with one of the Thai lads from the football team who's a taxi driver !!! (or something similar)...   and that will spin them out !!!