Help! Flickering for 2 years, running out of ideas!

[Sambora]

Hello everybody,

 

I am reaching out to you here in hope of getting some additional input about an issue with flickering lights that I have been having for almost 2 years. I try to keep it concise where possible:

In May 2022 I decided to undergo a major renovation of my 2BR 75sqm apartment including rewiring of all lights and the installation of a new, dimmable lighting system from BTICINO and their ‘Living Now’ series (wireless connection of the switches/dimmers to the central gateway).

 

All built-in lighting fixtures (ceiling lights and LED strips for ambient light) are connected to the ‘lighting’ breaker. I have one table lamp in my living room that connects directly to the power outlet that in turn is connected to the ‘receptacle’ breaker. I am using compatible dimmable GU10 LEDs in the ceilings and a E27 LED lamp in the table lamp. I have ambient LED strips underneath the floating TV cabinet, in the bed headboard and behind the mirrors in the bathrooms. The LED strips are hooked up to a separate LED driver to lower the voltage.

Shortly after the installation was completed, the flickering started. The flickering is erratic and follows no pattern. Sometimes it’s every day in the morning, or evening, or both… sometimes it’s not happening for 2-3 weeks at all. I ALWAYS have the same load on the circuits, meaning I use the same lighting scene in the mornings after waking up. Sometimes it flickers right after switching on the lights, sometimes it only starts after one hour. Sometimes it flickers continuously for hours, sometimes it stops after 30 seconds, then no flickering, then it starts again. There is zero predictability. It also does not matter what brightness level the lamps are set to… there’s noticeable flickering at 10, 20, 50 and 70%. There’s even a tiny little bit of flickering noticeable at 100%.

 

Only the ceiling & table lamp flicker. If it flickers, ALL these lights flicker. It’s never only one room. It’s always ALL rooms. EXCEPT for the LED strips which use a designated driver

Also, when it flickers, I kill all breakers except the lighting breaker and the flickering continues on the table lamp. Also, if I kill all breakers, including lighting breaker, but leave the ‘receptacle’ breaker on, the table lamp still flickers. Strange! Table lamp is connected to the power outlet and has never been rewired.

At that time, my apartment technicians as well as the lighting company believed that this flickering was caused by interferences or faulty/bad wiring.

Eventually I decided to rewire everything (to eliminate the potential root cause of wireless interferences which, in hindsight, was a mistake as the table lamp was not rewired in the first place anyway) and to install a state-of-the-art Lutron Homeworks QSX lighting system. The Lutron dealer I worked with is very experienced and does both large-scale commercial and residential projects - the support I've been receiving is exceptional!

 

Guess what? The flickering continues to this day.

 

We tried all kinds of GU10 and MR16 dimmable lamps available, we also connected a non-dimmable common E27 lamp directly to the lighting breaker which does NOT flicker despite all other lights flickering. We wanted to prove that the circuit breaker board is working and the incoming voltage is within normal range.

When it flickers, the voltage fluctuates between 225 and 232 quite quickly up and down. I can see on the installed voltmeter that there is definitely instability existing at times. Even when the light works fine, I never have a constant 230V. I usually have 227 or 228V.

We had the technicians, lighting specialists, even the service provider who looks after the entire building power in my unit, they measures everything and nothing points to a faulty cable or situation that may affect the entire building.

 

I firmly believe this is a temporary power surge/drop by our energy provider who, of course, is unwilling to investigate.

We recently installed a power surge protector but this did not bring any change. We are now considering to install a power stabilizer.

We also installed COB (chip-on-board) LEDs with a designated driver but these also flicker!

For the last 2 years we have this major construction site right next to my condominium, it’s a 28 story building. We spoke to their Head of Technician if their machines could cause the flickering, however, they are running on a different meter and the flickering occurs at times very early or late in the day when there is no activity at the construction site at all.

 

I wonder what else I could do or try to identify or even mitigate this problem?

I have attached a picture of my kitchen cabinet that contains the circuit breaker box and the Lutron Homeworks core components. Also I have attached an excel file that shows when I switched on the lights, when the flicker started or stopped, and when I switched off the lights - just to give you a rough idea when the flickering occurs. Also a video that shows the flickering and the voltage fluctuations.

 

Flickering Video

 

Thanks in advance for all the input.

 

 

 

Light Flickering Tracking Sheet.pdf

[jvs]

We have had this and it had nothing to do with any thing inside the house.

I was the cables connected to the electric meter outside.

Apparently it is very common here in Thailand.

[Sambora]

4 minutes ago, jvs said:

We have had this and it had nothing to do with any thing inside the house.

I was the cables connected to the electric meter outside.

Apparently it is very common here in Thailand.

 

What was done to solve the problem in your case? Did MEA come and check the connections?

[jvs]

Just now, Sambora said:

 

What was done to solve the problem in your case? Did MEA come and check the connections?

Yes we called them and they came the same day,they asked us to turn of the main breaker and they

clamped the wires properly,was not done well the first time.

Half hour of work and done for free and it solved the problem 100%.

[Crossy]

Check all your connections, including at the meter as above.

Check that your supply polarity is correct (L really is L).

Check the supply voltage with a proper multimeter (MEA should be 230V, PEA 220V).

Check that you have a N-E (MEN) link if your supply is TNC-S.

 

If that's all OK you could try adding a mains noise (EMI) filter to the input to the lighting controller, something like this: -

https://www.lazada.co.th//products/i2055106688-s6703392236.html

These are really intended to stop noise getting out of switching power supplies, but work equally well stopping noise going in to sensitive circuits.

 

[Sambora]

10 minutes ago, jvs said:

Yes we called them and they came the same day,they asked us to turn of the main breaker and they

clamped the wires properly,was not done well the first time.

Half hour of work and done for free and it solved the problem 100%.

 

Interesting. Will suggest this to my building manager and her technicians, thanks 🙂

[Sambora]

6 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Check all your connections, including at the meter as above.

Check that your supply polarity is correct (L really is L).

Check the supply voltage with a proper multimeter (MEA should be 230V, PEA 220V).

Check that you have a N-E (MEN) link if your supply is TNC-S.

 

If that's all OK you could try adding a mains noise (EMI) filter to the input to the lighting controller, something like this: -

https://www.lazada.co.th//products/i2055106688-s6703392236.html

These are really intended to stop noise getting out of switching power supplies, but work equally well stopping noise going in to sensitive circuits.

 

 

 

Great, thank you so much for these information. Here too I will relay these information to the building manager & technicians. Thank you so much 

[impulse]

They're a little expensive, hard to find in Thailand and there is a learning curve, but I found a recording voltmeter to be quite handy to diagnose electrical issues when I lived in Bangkok.  I think I had a Uni-T 71D in Thailand and I use a Victor 86E here in China.  Of course, Fluke makes them, too.  But dang they're expensive.

 

I see them occasionally on Lazada and at the Amorn electronic stores around Bangkok.  But I bought my UT71D at a specialty shop in the electronics section of the Ban Mo audiophile market near the new-ish Sam Yot Chinatown MRT stop.

 

Plug them into a laptop and let them record the voltage over time...  They catch transients and voltage dips I never saw while sitting there watching a voltmeter.  I made my own cable with a 2 prong plug on one end so I didn't have to mess around with alligator clips. 

 

Check the box to make sure you get a recording voltmeter because there's a lot of Uni-T models that have almost the same number.  I've had good luck with Uni-T equipment in China, Thailand and the USA.

 

[HauptmannUK]

Given your account of the fault I don't think its related to your lighting installation.  More likely is a power quality issue on the supply side, either in the building or upstream of the building.

Flickering is often caused by a bad connection - maybe corrosion or a poor crimp on the neutral line.

Your voltmeter doesn't have a sufficiently fast response to show what is going on.  There may well be quite large voltage excursions over a short timescale.

Try to beg or borrow a power quality analyser that will log short-term voltage excursions.  Then monitor in your apartment and at other locations in the building.

[bluejets]

Twist and tape one of the biggest problem areas in Thailand. 

That plus lack of recognition of the effects of joining aluminium and copper incorrectly.

The next is either non-existent or badly set up MEN system causing neutral voltage rise among other things. 

Next would be an understanding of main earth installs and fault currents.

Overloaded and poor cable size selection allowing voltage drop under higher current demand conditions would be another.

[Crossy]

PUBLIC NOTICE!

 

Once again, I find myself hiding posts from the usual suspects** which are argumentative / bickering and throw insults around.

 

** they know who they are.

 

This kind of post WILL cease forthwith.

 

This forum is intended as a help forum not an "I'm smarter than you" forum.

 

[CecilM]

LEDs (those that are dimmable) require a specific dimmer. 

[Rampant Rabbit]

Had similar at a  condo, spent  sometime tracking it  down, it only  happened between 6-7am every morning..........Then one morning I opened the front door  of the condo into the corridor and all their ceiling lights were flickering too!!!

Problem solved!

[parallelman]

23 hours ago, Sambora said:

 

What was done to solve the problem in your case? Did MEA come and check the connections?

Was the same at the place I rent except it was after some new wiring outside. In my case the tell tale sign was at windy times and at night when I noticed the line became a perch. Again similarly. it was a loose connection.

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, parallelman said:

when I noticed the line became a perch

 

 

 

[digger70]

On 3/8/2024 at 3:25 PM, jvs said:

We have had this and it had nothing to do with any thing inside the house.

I was the cables connected to the electric meter outside.

Apparently it is very common here in Thailand.

I agree, we had a new power pole put in about 50cm from theold one and they had to reconnect the meter to the new pole ,they never tight the pipe that goes in the ground to the house to the pole.

Some weeks later we got some fluctuations in the power supply.

So old Sparky Digger goes and investigate, Guess what, I put the pipe properly on the pole with some thick Alloy wire (Not aloud to Drill on the posts)and the wires came out of the meters connection.

Sh!t I said that must be the problem,Got the insulated Pliers and Screw drivers and fixed the problem.

There are Two ways of doing things :The Thai Way and the RIGHT Way.

[Taxi]

I had something similar, total rebuild and the kitchen lights had a flicker. My builder and the electrician decided to put the led strip light onto it's own switch (basically on/off)  which is not dim-able unlike the ceiling lights.  I also changed from a white light to a warm light at the same time.  No more flicker.

[Sambora]

Thank you everybody for your feedback. Couple of updates:

• As my condo is located right on Sukhumvit Road, I was informed that the electricity cables are coming into the building underground; I seem to remember that this happened back in 2017.
• There has been no flickering since Sunday morning. Since then, the voltage is stable. The only thing I have changed is that since Sunday morning, I no longer have my Air Conditions running in the 'Cool' mode but use the 'Dry' mode instead. I am far from saying that this is the root cause because I have previously gone for weeks without flickering even when using the ACs in the normal cooling mode. The ACs are on their own breaker as you can see in the pictures of my original post. Could this be somehow power-related where all my appliances draw too much power? But then again, often times it flickers in the morning right when I switch on the lights.. at that time I haven't even switched on the AC in the living room and only the bedroom AC is running, nothing else.
• The condo technicians are checking every 20 minutes between 5-7AM if there is an unstable voltage on the electric distribution panel on my floor (I am sure I am not using the correct terminologies here, not an expert 😄)
• Lastly, we also had a AVR supplier visiting and proposing a voltage stabilizer. This would be quite an expensive investment though (THB40k) which I ideally want to avoid. This may only put a plaster on the issue but does not address the root cause I guess as this is within MEA's responsibility? The device could be installed in the main electric cabinet in the hallway so it would not waste any space inside my unit which is a positive.

[Sambora]

On 3/8/2024 at 3:36 PM, Crossy said:

Check all your connections, including at the meter as above.

Check that your supply polarity is correct (L really is L).

Check the supply voltage with a proper multimeter (MEA should be 230V, PEA 220V).

Check that you have a N-E (MEN) link if your supply is TNC-S.

 

If that's all OK you could try adding a mains noise (EMI) filter to the input to the lighting controller, something like this: -

https://www.lazada.co.th//products/i2055106688-s6703392236.html

These are really intended to stop noise getting out of switching power supplies, but work equally well stopping noise going in to sensitive circuits.

 

 

We did install something similar:

2-AV (savetronics.co.th)

 

It's a SafeGuard power line conditioner & noise filter device. We installed this for the two kitchen downlights, however, the flickering remained. I assume the EMI filter here wouldn't solve it either?

[phetphet]

I had a similar problem in my bathroom. Was like a disco at night with the fluorescent tube flashing. Also BTicino switches. Someone investigated for me and said the switches were faulty. He changed them and no more flashing. 

[sometimewoodworker]

7 hours ago, Sambora said:

There has been no flickering since Sunday morning. Since then, the voltage is stable. The only thing I have changed is that since Sunday morning, I no longer have my Air Conditions running in the 'Cool' mode but use the 'Dry' mode instead. I am far from saying that this is the root cause because I have previously gone for weeks without flickering even when using the ACs in the normal cooling mode. The ACs are on their own breaker as you can see in the pictures of my original post. Could this be somehow power-related where all my appliances draw too much power? But then again, often times it flickers in the morning right when I switch on the lights.. at that time I haven't even switched on the AC in the living room and only the bedroom AC is running, nothing else.

The symptoms are precisely those of the power system being somewhat overloaded. It isn’t just you that is being affected, don’t believe any suggestion that it’s unique to your apartment. The condo technician isn’t checking because he as nothing better to do, there is a known problem.

 

There are inexpensive volt ameters and there are slightly more expensive ones that are easy to fit and going up in price there are versions that will record the data. I suggest that you invest a little because then you can see in real time how much the voltage is being pulled down and the amps drawn to drop the voltage. When you have proof that the voltage is being pulled down (video of the meter) it is more difficult for the condo to claim that there is no problem.

 

My air compressor will drop the voltage enough to cause the lights to flicker, this isn’t a problem for me as it’s daytime use