New tax laws

[Liquorice]

21 minutes ago, xeniv23 said:

I don't think that anyone will come knocking on your door.  It's possible that you will just be doing the routine paperwork for an extension and suddenly the IO will ask "Where are your Thai Tax Documents.....?  No Documents No Extension?"  Just a guess.  It could be official policy or an IO just jerking your chain.  The way things work around here you just never know.  

You do realise that in order to pay or reclaim tax in Thailand, you firstly have to be registered for tax purposes and be issued a TIN for identification purposes.

[digger70]

New tax laws 

 

Wait and see Nothing is Clear as yet .

This can take Yrs before they even know what they are doing.

There are too many different scenarios to be used and No one knows yet what they are suppose to do with them.

Stick to the Old Tax rule . 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Liquorice said:

You do realise that in order to pay or reclaim tax in Thailand, you firstly have to be registered for tax purposes and be issued a TIN for identification purposes.

And of course if you don't register for a TIN, the persons bank account wouldn't yield any clues whatsoever to the persons identity.! :))

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, digger70 said:

New tax laws 

 

Wait and see Nothing is Clear as yet .

This can take Yrs before they even know what they are doing.

There are too many different scenarios to be used and No one knows yet what they are suppose to do with them.

Stick to the Old Tax rule . 

Here, let me help you and make things more clear:

 

 

[fulhamster]

2 hours ago, worrab said:

Simple answer is No! 
Two totally different departments with no links.

At the moment....

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, fulhamster said:

At the moment....

No links apart from they're both part of the same government that is looking for money and wants to tax people more.

[fulhamster]

42 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

I am exempt form UK tax as my pensions are below the taxable level. So I would have no such proof of tax paid as I haven't paid any. That'll confuse them, because all farangs are rich so I must have paid tax.

So you would have to pay tax on all of your pension when it is sent here

[Liquorice]

10 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

And of course if you don't register for a TIN, the persons bank account wouldn't yield any clues whatsoever to the persons identity.! :))

How would they access account information, Thailand also has its own data protection laws.

You'd still require a TIN for tax purposes.

 

When you walk through the town, all those coffee shops, restraints etc run by Thais. You do know they're not registered for tax, right!
They don't keep account records, it's cash transactions.
Nobody comes knocking on their door, because they're not registered for tax.

 

You're not still trying to submit your 90-day reports as 7/11 are you Mike.

[0ffshore360]

I can understand that the Thai Government would like to tax "earnings" of people resident in Thailand but for those who are here longer than 183 days therefore deemed tax residents but who are drawing on pensions or savings that presumably are already taxed at source then as an inflow of foreign exchange  every dollar, Euro, shekel of whatever is already a net gain to Thailand and it's economy. Tax or no tax that money is already injected.

 

[proton]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

That is incorrect guidance and is highly inappropriate!

 

The basic deductions for an over 65 year old are 190k for over age 65 years plus 60k personal allowance. There is also a zero tax rated band of 150k. If the difference between those two allowances and the 500k you mention is derived from ANY source that is not covered by a DTA and/or is taxed at a lower rate in the home country than it is in Thailand, the income is assessable to Thai tax. Not registering for a TIN and not filing taxes to declare that income, assuming the person was Thai tax resident, means that person is guilty of tax evasion for which there are harsh penalties.

 

 

 

So if over 65 you can transfer 400k PA tax free, if under that you dont have to fill in a tax return anyway?

[ujayujay]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Agree, it's all nonsense, there's no way the Thai tax department could ever find out your foreign income or tax it.

If anyone asks me, I have 400kbht in the bank (as required by immigration) and no income, I live off my Thai wife.

Optimist! At the next visa extension the immigration officer will explain to you, no income certificate from the authorities of your country, no visa. The 400k on your Banking account is als taxed as Income!

[ujayujay]

6 minutes ago, proton said:

 

So if over 65 you can transfer 400k PA tax free, if under that you dont have to fill in a tax return anyway?

NO!

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

How would they access account information, Thailand also has its own data protection laws.

You'd still require a TIN for tax purposes.

 

When you walk through the town, all those coffee shops, restraints etc run by Thais. You do know they're not registered for tax, right!
They don't keep account records, it's cash transactions.
Nobody comes knocking on their door, because they're not registered for tax.

 

You're not still trying to submit your 90-day reports as 7/11 are you Mike.

All banks have to withhold 15% on any interest paid on bank accounts and to forward that to the Revenue. The banks also have to identify the account holder to the Revenue so that if they do file a tax return and try to reclaim that tax, they are able to match them. For example, when I file my Thai tax return each year, all I have to do is to enter one of my banka ccounts where interest was paid and tax was with held and voila, just like magic, all my bank accounts appear showing all the interest paid and all the tax wit held.

 

Now, about those coffee shops. I don't know exactly how those coffee shops are registered for tax but I suspect it's the same way that my wife has her business registered, as a self employed business. Others will have heard this before but in case you haven't.....she sells baked goods from home and turns over more than 1 million Baht a year. Generous tax concessions for the self employed allow her to deduct 60% of her sales cost as expenses so that she only has assessible income of around 400k. With tax deductions etc, she pays tax of around 12k per year but is required to file a tax return twice a year. I reality she takes home around 50k per per month, tax paid as described previously.

 

So yes, those coffee shops are registered for tax in some way or another and the till receipts and bank account transactions confirm their revenue. FWIW my wifes BB bank account sees EVERY cash transaction both in and out, because everyone pays by bank transfer.

[Mike Lister]

9 minutes ago, proton said:

 

So if over 65 you can transfer 400k PA tax free, if under that you dont have to fill in a tax return anyway?

Depends how you want to look at things. If you want to follow the Revenue rules strictly, you must file if you have assessable income (that is before deductions), greater than 120k per year. You know what, you'd be a great candidate to read the tax guide, it might just jog you out of the denial stage...here ya go:

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1319807-personal-income-tax-guide-for-foreigners-thailand/

 

[Mike Lister]

Did somebody mention privacy laws? I must try that the next time the Revenue asks me why I didn't file a tax return when I had assessable income. I can say, how do you know that, don't you realise there are privacy laws here, you shouldn't be allowed to know that.....it might work I suppose. 🙂

[jvs]

So much information and so much misinformation.

I am not going to do anything or worry about anything until i receive something official

from the Thai government.

Nobody really knows what is going on,i am not wasting my time reading all of the numerous posts

already on this forum

Wait and see.

[Bangkok Barry]

31 minutes ago, fulhamster said:

1 hour ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

I am exempt form UK tax as my pensions are below the taxable level. So I would have no such proof of tax paid as I haven't paid any. That'll confuse them, because all farangs are rich so I must have paid tax.

So you would have to pay tax on all of your pension when it is sent here

 

I very much doubt that. I believe Thailand and the UK have a reciprocal agreement, which to me means that if I don't pay there then I also don't pay here.

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, jvs said:

So much information and so much misinformation.

I am not going to do anything or worry about anything until i receive something official

from the Thai government.

Nobody really knows what is going on,i am not wasting my time reading all of the numerous posts

already on this forum

Wait and see.

At the risk of sounding like Mr Doom and Gloom, let me tell you how I think this will play out for people like you.

 

Firstly, there will be no letter from the Revenue, inviting you to file a tax return and giving you lots of easy instructions in English, goodness me, where do you think you are!

 

One of two things will happen. EIther, your bank will require you to log a TIN against your account and if you don't you wont be able to operate your account. Or, the Immigration people will require you to prove taxes were paid and any Revenue needs were satisfied, before you can extend your visa.

 

Do not expect much notice of either and don't expect to be notified personally. 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

I very much doubt that. I believe Thailand and the UK have a reciprocal agreement, which to me means that if I don't pay there then I also don't pay here.

That isn't what a Dual Tax Agreement means and it doesn't work that way.

[jvs]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

At the risk of sounding like Mr Doom and Gloom, let me tell you how I think this will play out for people like you.

 

Firstly, there will be no letter from the Revenue, inviting you to file a tax return and giving you lots of easy instructions in English, goodness me, where do you think you are!

 

One of two things will happen. EIther, your bank will require you to log a TIN against your account and if you don't you wont be able to operate your account. Or, the Immigration people will require you to prove taxes were paid and any Revenue needs were satisfied, before you can extend your visa.

 

Do not expect much notice of either and don't expect to be notified personally. 

 

Like i said,wait and see.

We live in the land of flip flops.

[Moonlover]

1 hour ago, xeniv23 said:

I don't think that anyone will come knocking on your door.  It's possible that you will just be doing the routine paperwork for an extension and suddenly the IO will ask "Where are your Thai Tax Documents.....?  No Documents No Extension?"  Just a guess.  It could be official policy or an IO just jerking your chain.  The way things work around here you just never know.  

I think that is highly unlikely. Should they decide to tax us foreigners and that is still not yet a given, we would not be required to file a tax return until early next year. (The Thai tax year being 1st Jan to 31st Dec) Therefor we cannot be denied an extension because we wouldn't have done anything wrong, at least not this year. 

 

Imagine the panic if they suddenly said 'No tax docs' no extension!'. 

 

More likely we would receive notification from Immigration (the obvious channel) that next year (2025) we would be required to prove that we are complying with the tax rules.

 

Once again the community is getting themselves all stressed out before we have any solid information. How's about we just cool it a bit.

 

That's a hint @Mike Lister 

 

[Liquorice]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

All banks have to withhold 15% on any interest paid on bank accounts and to forward that to the Revenue. The banks also have to identify the account holder to the Revenue so that if they do file a tax return and try to reclaim that tax, they are able to match them. For example, when I file my Thai tax return each year, all I have to do is to enter one of my banka ccounts where interest was paid and tax was with held and voila, just like magic, all my bank accounts appear showing all the interest paid and all the tax wit held.

Yes, I know.
I also reclaim those taxes, but only because I have a TIN.
I simply request a 'statement of tax paid' from the bank and voilà, I receive a reimbursement cheque shortly after.

No TIN, no reclaim of taxes, No TIN, no submission of taxes.

 

15 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Now, about those coffee shops. I don't know exactly how those coffee shops are registered for tax but I suspect it's the same way that my wife has her business registered, as a self employed business. Others will have heard this before but in case you haven't.....she sells baked goods from home and turns over more than 1 million Baht a year. Generous tax concessions for the self employed allow her to deduct 60% of her sales cost as expenses so that she only has assessible income of around 400k. With tax deductions etc, she pays tax of around 12k per year but is required to file a tax return twice a year. I reality she takes home around 50k per per month, tax paid as described previously.

Again, my wife also runs her own business, self-employed since age 24.

Her business is registered, and she pays a 'business' tax, but that's directly to the Provincial government, not the Tax office.
She also pays a 'signage' tax, but again direct to the local Provincial government.

In terms of personal taxation, she has never registered, never been asked to register and wouldn't have a clue how much her turnover is in a year.

 

There are only some 10 million Thais, out of 70 million, registered for tax and half of them are government employees.
Most Thais are classed as self-employed, non tax registered and don't pay tax.
If the tax revenue is looking for more money, they should start there.

I was self-employed in the UK for over 35 years, but by law had to keep accounts.
 

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

I think that is highly unlikely. Should they decide to tax us foreigners and that is still not yet a given, we would not be required to file a tax return until early next year. (The Thai tax year being 1st Jan to 31st Dec) Therefor we cannot be denied an extension because we wouldn't have done anything wrong, at least not this year. 

 

Imagine the panic if they suddenly said 'No tax docs' no extension!'. 

 

More likely we would receive notification from Immigration (the obvious channel) that next year (2025) we would be required to prove that we are complying with the tax rules.

 

Once again the community is getting themselves all stressed out before we have any solid information. How's about we just cool it a bit.

 

That's a hint @Mike Lister 

 

Every day we see new readers posting questions and getting answers to their tax issues and becoming less stressed as a result. Every day I receive at least two PM's from people wanting tax information but too afraid to post their questions on forum. Every day we see that the number of downloads of the Simple Tax Guide increases by several hundred. 

 

If continuing to inform and help people and get the message across, irritates or annoys some people the answer is simple....don't read tax threads and/or put me on ignore. If reading tax threads stresses people out, don't read them. But don't ask me to backpedal and allow misinformation, disinformation and complete and utter lies go unchallenged because it's not going to happen.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

Yes, I know.
I also reclaim those taxes, but only because I have a TIN.
I simply request a 'statement of tax paid' from the bank and voilà, I receive a reimbursement cheque shortly after.

No TIN, no reclaim of taxes, No TIN, no submission of taxes.

 

Again, my wife also runs her own business, self-employed since age 24.

Her business is registered, and she pays a 'business' tax, but that's directly to the Provincial government, not the Tax office.
She also pays a 'signage' tax, but again direct to the local Provincial government.

In terms of personal taxation, she has never registered, never been asked to register and wouldn't have a clue how much her turnover is in a year.

 

There are only some 10 million Thais, out of 70 million, registered for tax and half of them are government employees.
Most Thais are classed as self-employed, non tax registered and don't pay tax.
If the tax revenue is looking for more money, they should start there.

I was self-employed in the UK for over 35 years, but by law had to keep accounts.
 

I'm not sure what you point is, you said that those coffee shops didn't pay tax and I gave you an example of where my wifes business, akin to a coffee shop, is registered for tax and you have confirmed that your wife pays tax also....so? We know that only 11% of the workforce is registered for tax and that only 6% of the WF pays tax, 4% via a PAYE equivalent. That is one of the smallest tax nets in Asia and the Revenue is working to increase it, case in point, the new tax ruling. We all know the capture rate is low, the Revenue knows it also, that's why more people will be forced into that net, mostly by using electronic bank information I imagine. 

[Liquorice]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

I'm not sure what you point is, you said that those coffee shops didn't pay tax and I gave you an example of where my wifes business, akin to a coffee shop, is registered for tax and you have confirmed that your wife pays tax also....so?

She pays those taxes to the local provincial government, not Thai tax revenue department.

[freeworld]

2 hours ago, Wrwest said:

it is amazing to me that Thailand would try to deal with the American tax system ... it is akin to herding cats with so many variables and to think the individual will be responsible for conforming with the complexities?

Thailand is not dealing with the American system. They are only interested in the Thai tax system and income remitted to or earned in Thailand under their laws.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, Liquorice said:

She pays those taxes to the local provincial government, not Thai tax revenue department.

Great! I don't understand what your wife's business is., how it is structured for tax or income etc and I don't need to know, bottom line sound like she pays some tax on her income. My wife operates her business as described and that's cost effective for her. Is there a point anywhere here? 

[Presnock]

Mike Lister,

Yeah, I forgot that this is just a bend in the rules of that tax law....I figured that eventually with all the crying and screaming both of ex-pats and locals forced to pay taxes here that it would mean that they had to re-write the tax laws to keep people at bay and thus would need that royal blessing.  I see that way too many people are still bothered by this change in rules although it will probably only affect a small

percentage of them.  Other ASEAN countries too signed on to the OECD decision of last year and are changing their tax collection rules too.  Pretty soon tax evaders and those that "bend" the rules will have

no where to hide.  Next they need to tackle the "agents" that are always around with too many people accepting them.   take care

[Lacessit]

1 hour ago, TigerandDog said:

The rules regarding pensions will depend on whether your home country has a DTA with Thailand.  

 

Seeing as practically all the posts on this topic tend to refer to either the UK or US, I repost the information that I've previously posted with regards to the Australian Govt (aged) pension.

 

#1. If you are tax resident in Australia the aged pension is tax free.

#2. If you are a non tax resident of Australia and have been continuing to lodge aussie tax returns your aged pension & other income is being taxed at a minimum rate of 32%

#3. Under the Oz/Thai DTA if you are a Thai tax resident, ONLY Thailand has the right to legally tax you, and as such you are entitled to claim back ALL tax paid in Oz on your aged pension or any other tax paid for that matter for every year you have been a Thai tax resident.

#4. Therefore, unfortunately  aussie aged pensions are deemed to be income and tax assessable in Thailand if you are a Thai tax resident.

 

The above information has been confirmed by a tax accountant in Oz that specialises in the Oz/Thai DTA. I did previously post a copy of documentation supporting the above, but I no longer have a copy to repost. 

There is nothing to stop any pensioner who has provable savings prior to January 1, 2024 transferring said savings progressively into Thailand tax-free, then allowing the pension payments to accumulate in an Australian bank account. At least, that's the way I understand the laws. Money cannot be taxed here, until it surfaces in a Thai bank account.

[Mike Lister]

Just now, Lacessit said:

There is nothing to stop any pensioner who has provable savings prior to January 1, 2024 transferring said savings progressively into Thailand tax-free, then allowing the pension payments to accumulate in an Australian bank account. At least, that's the way I understand the laws. Money cannot be taxed here, until it surfaces in a Thai bank account.

Correct