Introduction to Personal Income Tax in Thailand

[oldcpu]

19 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

So basically a souped-up version of the attached self-certification form which my UK bank required me to complete back in 2016, then.

 

I had something similar to fill in earlier this year wity two different Canadian financial institutions.

 

I simply replied with the truth in the form that  they had me fill out (which they accepted), which was my Pink-ID # (same number is on the Yellow Book) might become my Tax-ID, with the written caveat that my Thai TIN is not yet activated (there is lots of room in the form to succinctly add that detail).

 

I confirmed that information PRIOR with a phone chat with the Thailand Revenue Department (Phuket branch) who noted I did not qualify for a Thai TIN (despite my spending >180 days/year in Thailand as I was not bringing money into Thailand and because I had no Thai income).   The RD official advised that my Pink-ID # "might" become my 'online Thai tax-ID' ONLY AFTER it was activated as such. But the Phuket branch RD official advised I did not qualify for such a Thai TIN to be activated at present time.

 

This is all 100% legal and it is the truth.

 

The two Canadian financial institutions were more than happy to receive that information.

[chiang mai]

50 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

Where in either this new link or the previous one does it state, as you previously posted;

"Every foreigner with a Thai bank account will get the forms soon, unless they have opened an account recently and have already filled them in"?

Stop making up scaremongering statements unless you can provide and highlight an ACCURATE source!

Give it a rest Scottie, it's very clear that everyone is going to get one, just as UK expats did when the UK joined.

[scottiejohn]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

Give it a rest Scottie, it's very clear that everyone is going to get one, just as UK expats did when the UK joined.

No! You give up that the following statement is true;

Where in either this new link or the previous one does it state, as you previously posted;

"Every foreigner with a Thai bank account will get the forms soon, unless they have opened an account recently and have already filled them in"?

Stop making up scaremongering statements unless you can provide and highlight an ACCURATE source!

[scottiejohn]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

Give it a rest Scottie, it's very clear that everyone is going to get one, just as UK expats did when the UK joined.

When are you going to give it a rest and either provide proof of your statement or admit you made it up!

[topt]

3 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

When are you going to give it a rest and either provide proof of your statement or admit you made it up!

Perhaps you may want to have a read of the attached link - you could start at page 21 if you like.

Whilst it may not quote the statement you seem to be obsessed about it will show the clear intent and what all Thai financial entities are supposed to do if they haven't done already.

 

Timescales and action are always more fluid here but similar is likely to happen for all those Thai entities that fall under the scope outlined.

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/FATCA_File/crs/Thailand_CRS_Guidance_180823_VF.pdf

 

My UK offshore account has been asking me about TINS for Thailand for many years as they have me with a Thai address......

 

 

[chiang mai]

18 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

No! You give up that the following statement is true;

Where in either this new link or the previous one does it state, as you previously posted;

"Every foreigner with a Thai bank account will get the forms soon, unless they have opened an account recently and have already filled them in"?

Stop making up scaremongering statements unless you can provide and highlight an ACCURATE source!

 

16 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

When are you going to give it a rest and either provide proof of your statement or admit you made it up!

I didn't post that, another poster did, I haven't posted anything on this subject.....you need to take a nice lay down in a dark room.

[oldcpu]

If all foreigners who reside in Thailand > 180 days are to be assigned tax IDs, then the local provincial RD offices need to be educated  on this. Because that is not their view. Their view is more complex.

Some of us, who reside in Thailand greater than 180 days applied for Thai TIN and we were refused a Thai TIN. I am one of those.

So perhaps it is more accurate to add some qualifications on that statement that all tax resident foreigners will get a Thai TIN, because currently that is not the view of some provincial RD offices.

These offices claim its more complex than such blanket statements.

Yes .. this could change, but then let's make that clear too ..ie a blanket tax ID is not required for all at present ( albeit tax ID is definitely required for some to many) and not make non verified statements that this will definitely change.  Rather qualify such statements with the facts. That is what the Thai RD try to do.

I think we all ( who reside > 180 days) need to both wait and see, while also evaluating our own situation relative to the need to get a tax ID as news becomes more clear.

[JimGant]

Quote

Every foreigner with a Thai bank account will get the forms soon, unless they have opened an account recently and have already filled them in

 

Sounds like what happened with the implementation of FATCA, when banks had to have new customers ascertain whether or not they were Yanks. This was back in 2015, and the banks were supposed to then go back to pre-2015 customers and get their bonafides. This was not an option -- Thailand had entered into an agreement, and thus their banks had to fall in line.

 

I don't know if the banks had to survey all farangs, or just those with indications of being a Yank (you know, handsome, good teeth, large bank account). I had had a Bangkok Bank account from well before 2015 -- and never got a survey (maybe that missing front tooth). Or, maybe because I hadn't updated my new email address.....

 

Anyway, this new survey going on -- obviously at the behest of the Thai govt, not just KBank -- is due to the recent signing on by Thailand with CRS. That they're rolling up FATCA folks too might mean they were told to complete some unfinished business. Dunno. Maybe I should expect an email soon from Bangkok Bank, tho I still haven't updated my email address. No matter -- and no big deal -- unless your international financial data is suspect....

[cdnvic]

Removed an insulting post.

[chiang mai]

5 hours ago, JimGant said:

 

Sounds like what happened with the implementation of FATCA, when banks had to have new customers ascertain whether or not they were Yanks. This was back in 2015, and the banks were supposed to then go back to pre-2015 customers and get their bonafides. This was not an option -- Thailand had entered into an agreement, and thus their banks had to fall in line.

 

I don't know if the banks had to survey all farangs, or just those with indications of being a Yank (you know, handsome, good teeth, large bank account). I had had a Bangkok Bank account from well before 2015 -- and never got a survey (maybe that missing front tooth). Or, maybe because I hadn't updated my new email address.....

 

Anyway, this new survey going on -- obviously at the behest of the Thai govt, not just KBank -- is due to the recent signing on by Thailand with CRS. That they're rolling up FATCA folks too might mean they were told to complete some unfinished business. Dunno. Maybe I should expect an email soon from Bangkok Bank, tho I still haven't updated my email address. No matter -- and no big deal -- unless your international financial data is suspect....

I agree with your historic assessment, I think the banks are only now completing the work they should have completed a few years ago and that everyone will get one of these forms.

 

As a non-American, the first I found out about FATCA (et al) was when I asked my bank, UOB, to cash a US Treasury and they refused, saying the bank will  not transact with American onshore financial entities. Fortunately, CIMB would and they cashed the cheque. Later, when I tried to have my US SSc sent to UOB via IDD, UOB again refused to accept the deposit....those things were the catalyst for me opening a BBL bank account, that was two + years ago. And when I did open a BBL account, the US SSc IDD form was copied and countersigned several times with both BBL and Manilla saying they wanted the original! 

[Mutt Daeng]

Regarding the email from the Kasikorn bank:

I would appreciate it if someone could clarify whether my understanding of completing the FATCA/CRS Individual Self-Certification is correct. I think I need to complete Name, Nationality(British), place of birth, passport number and Thai TIN at the top of the form. Then "No" to everything in Part 1 of the form. I am not tax resident in any other country so it's "No" to Part 2 question 1. Then sign and date the form. The other 2 forms are not applicable to me. Is this correct, or have I missed something?

[Unamerican]

On 11/24/2024 at 11:08 AM, sometimewoodworker said:

rocket science . . . use translation software

OK, so please can you use your rocket do this for us, as My rocket failed to launch!  

[Unamerican]

On 11/24/2024 at 11:08 AM, sometimewoodworker said:

to see the difference between what is being asked of in Thai compared to what will be asked in the English version.

Why would there be any substantive differences??

Which should we believe or act on if there are? 

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, Unamerican said:

Why would there be any substantive differences??

Which should we believe or act on if there are? 

one form for Americans is for FACTA while the other is for UK, for CRS .  good luck

[Presnock]

On 11/26/2024 at 2:05 PM, Mutt Daeng said:

Regarding the email from the Kasikorn bank:

I would appreciate it if someone could clarify whether my understanding of completing the FATCA/CRS Individual Self-Certification is correct. I think I need to complete Name, Nationality(British), place of birth, passport number and Thai TIN at the top of the form. Then "No" to everything in Part 1 of the form. I am not tax resident in any other country so it's "No" to Part 2 question 1. Then sign and date the form. The other 2 forms are not applicable to me. Is this correct, or have I missed something?

FYI [email protected] is doing a webinar on how to fill out the Kasikorn forms _ 1 pm Friday 29 November.

[Mutt Daeng]

13 hours ago, Presnock said:

FYI [email protected] is doing a webinar on how to fill out the Kasikorn forms _ 1 pm Friday 29 November.

@Presnock, thanks for taking the time to reply. However, I had already made the decision that what I was going to fill in was correct, so I emailed the completed form back to them with a certified copy of my passport ID page. Thanks again for trying to help me.

[Presnock]

I have listened to several webinars on the Thai taxes of income and on CRS I have heard the speakers saying that ATM and Credit Card activity will be available and on this forum I have heard several people claim that they will avoid having to pay Thai taxes by not sending money to a bank here, but will use ATM and Credit Cards to live here.  I can understand that Credit Cards are like a loan so I am unsure about that as a reportable income but ATM's I don't transfer any from an account outside of Thailand into Thailand.  I have queried an agent as I continue scrolling through the FATCA and CRS sites to see what data will be "shared" between at least from the US sent to the Thai Revenue Dept.  Has anyone actually found factual information on the data coming back to Thailand about our finances.  I am not really concerned with this myself as my only income is protected by the DTA and to date, remitted foreign income is exemted under the LTR,  I am concerned with my friends who query me or mention how they will avoid paying Thai taxes.  If I find any further info on this subject I will pass it on.

[The Cyclist]

8 minutes ago, Presnock said:

I am concerned with my friends who query me or mention how they will avoid paying Thai taxes.  If I find any further info on this subject I will pass it on.

 

Just remind them who brought down Al Capone, and for what reason.

 

Is it really worth taking the chance ?

[chiang mai]

14 minutes ago, Presnock said:

I have listened to several webinars on the Thai taxes of income and on CRS I have heard the speakers saying that ATM and Credit Card activity will be available and on this forum I have heard several people claim that they will avoid having to pay Thai taxes by not sending money to a bank here, but will use ATM and Credit Cards to live here.  I can understand that Credit Cards are like a loan so I am unsure about that as a reportable income but ATM's I don't transfer any from an account outside of Thailand into Thailand.  I have queried an agent as I continue scrolling through the FATCA and CRS sites to see what data will be "shared" between at least from the US sent to the Thai Revenue Dept.  Has anyone actually found factual information on the data coming back to Thailand about our finances.  I am not really concerned with this myself as my only income is protected by the DTA and to date, remitted foreign income is exemted under the LTR,  I am concerned with my friends who query me or mention how they will avoid paying Thai taxes.  If I find any further info on this subject I will pass it on.

I doubt you will find information specific to credit and debit cards, it's more likely to be mentioned in passing since the method of funds remittance into Thailand can take many forms and not each one is mentioned specifically. It would be extremely naive to believe that only remittances that are transferred bank to bank via a TT are considered to be potentially tax assessable and that all others methods escape assessment.

[Presnock]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I doubt you will find information specific to credit and debit cards, it's more likely to be mentioned in passing since the method of funds remittance into Thailand can take many forms and not each one is mentioned specifically. It would be extremely naive to believe that only remittances that are transferred bank to bank via a TT are considered to be potentially tax assessable and that all others methods escape assessment.

That was why I thought it strange that with the CRS the agent did mention that they would be available but with US FATCA, I have always heard that they will only send account numbers and total at beginning of year and end of year total and that accounts are security blocked for anthing other than the totals.  We'll see soon I gues.

[Presnock]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Just remind them who brought down Al Capone, and for what reason.

 

Is it really worth taking the chance ?

In my opinion no way would I even consider this.  The way they talk, seems they are really concious of what would happen if they did that in the US taxes but guess they think that the Thais will not be as diligent in checking or if they will even audit people at all.   Me, I error on the side of caution when reporting jus tlike the FBAR, even though I am below the amounts, I still send it in just to be on the safe side.  Good luck .

[jwest10]

On 11/24/2024 at 11:20 AM, chiang mai said:

Wake me when you uncover year 2024 PND90 and PND91 forms in English, till then, do not disturb. 

Precisely and doubt that they will arrive and now in December and again I have been told by my local tax office I do not need to file a tax form and as have no income derived in Thailand and my allowances of 500k or 560K is in access of any pension income

[anrcaccount]

6 hours ago, Presnock said:

I have listened to several webinars on the Thai taxes of income and on CRS I have heard the speakers saying that ATM and Credit Card activity will be available and on this forum I have heard several people claim that they will avoid having to pay Thai taxes by not sending money to a bank here, but will use ATM and Credit Cards to live here.  I can understand that Credit Cards are like a loan so I am unsure about that as a reportable income but ATM's I don't transfer any from an account outside of Thailand into Thailand.  I have queried an agent as I continue scrolling through the FATCA and CRS sites to see what data will be "shared" between at least from the US sent to the Thai Revenue Dept.  Has anyone actually found factual information on the data coming back to Thailand about our finances.  I am not really concerned with this myself as my only income is protected by the DTA and to date, remitted foreign income is exemted under the LTR,  I am concerned with my friends who query me or mention how they will avoid paying Thai taxes.  If I find any further info on this subject I will pass it on.

 

 

I am yet to see any source to suggest the CRS regulations involve any sharing of credit card information, especially at the individual transaction level.

 

'What you have heard' is correct, when they state only aggregated account balances are shared , with regard to CRS ( and FATCA) . With regard to FATCA, remember , it is more about a foreign jurisdiction reporting BACK TO the US - and there are thresholds, $50K. Also, remember FATCA has been around for about a DECADE now, this is not new.  

 

CRS Source: https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/FATCA_File/crs/Thailand_CRS_Guidance_280823.pdf

 

Table 4 ( page 60) it defines exactly what financial information is shared which is only yearly aggregate account balances, does not include individual transactions, excepting the cases of income as specified in table 5. There is no way this information shared can include individual foreign credit card (or ATM) transactions.  

 

Unfortunately, CRS has become a term used, in a scaremongering fashion, currently being pushed by Thai 'expat' tax experts, in order to drive demand for their services, along with fitting in nicely with the worldview of the those who believe there's an eye on their every transaction. 

 

Despite much insinuation, at this point, there is no real link between the CRS/FATCA regulations, and the reality of Thai taxation. 

[Liquorice]

7 hours ago, jwest10 said:

Precisely and doubt that they will arrive and now in December and again I have been told by my local tax office I do not need to file a tax form and as have no income derived in Thailand and my allowances of 500k or 560K is in access of any pension income

Last week my Provincial tax office informed me as my income is taxed at source in the UK, I am not required to file tax forms in Thailand, other than reclaiming tax paid on interest from my Thai bank accounts which I've done for years as I already have a TIN.

[RubbaJohnny]

8 hours ago, Liquorice said:

Last week my Provincial tax office informed me as my income is taxed at source in the UK, I am not required to file tax forms in Thailand, other than reclaiming tax paid on interest from my Thai bank accounts which I've done for years as I already have a TIN.

Was that Chiang  Rai please, my friend was told the same

[chiang mai]

7 minutes ago, RubbaJohnny said:

Was that Chiang  Rai please, my friend was told the same

All the remote TRD branches are coming up with different stories about this, even one in Bangkok had it's own variant. Some say that if your income is taxed overseas, it doesn't need to be taxed here. Others say, if you don't have a work permit, you don't need to file. A third variant is that you don't need to file, if you don't have Thai income.

 

Just take each one of those excuses and think it through for a moment and you'll see how obviously fictitious it is. 

 

If income being taxed overseas was the sole criteria, there would be no need for Dual Tax Agreements plus that would mean that all the DTA exempt income such as Government Pensions and US Social Security payments would need to be taxed in Thailand!

 

Not having a work permit doesn't meet muster either. That would mean that anyone with rental income in Thailand, doesn't need to pay tax....really?

 

As for not having Thai income, well, what can be said! That would mean that everyone could earn as much as they like tax free anywhere in the world and have it remitted to Thailand and there would be no tax to pay, that's pretty much the way it was previously that the new rule is trying to bring and end to.

 

What I don't get is why and how grown up people who have lived in Thailand for some time, don't understand these mixed message signals that happen with banks, immigrations and now TRD, the fact is that communication here is very poor and nothing like what you expect or are used to "back home".

 

But hey, if you've been to a TRD branch and asked the questions and you chose to believe what you have been told, go for it.

 

 

 

 

[Liquorice]

51 minutes ago, RubbaJohnny said:

Was that Chiang  Rai please, my friend was told the same

Roi Et.

[Liquorice]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

But hey, if you've been to a TRD branch and asked the questions and you chose to believe what you have been told, go for it.

If the TRD are refusing to issue TIN's for foreigners, or advise a tax return is not required, what would you advise expats to do?

 

I get the impression this is not something the TRD want to enforce on individual expats, as it would cost them more in staff administration fees, than any due taxes from a minority of expats.

 

[The Cyclist]

12 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

f the TRD are refusing to issue TIN's for foreigners, or advise a tax return is not required, what would you advise expats to do?

 

1. Get an annual bank statement

 

2. Attach whatever proof you have of where the money comes from, taxes being paid etc.

 

3. File safely at home in an A4 envelope marked on the front Thai Tax Year 2024.

 

4. A photo taken at your Revenue Dept Office might also be a good idea.

 

Whilst this will not prove that you tried to register and get a TIN, it would be handy to have in the event that you were invited for an interview.

[chiang mai]

18 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

If the TRD are refusing to issue TIN's for foreigners, or advise a tax return is not required, what would you advise expats to do?

 

I get the impression this is not something the TRD want to enforce on individual expats, as it would cost them more in staff administration fees, than any due taxes from a minority of expats.

 

You may be right, or there again you may not be, at this stage I don't know. I think there is very little downside to obtaining a TIN but there could be if you don't. And if you take that to the next logical step and don't file a return, because you don't have a TIN, there is potentially an even greater downside, for some people. 

 

What I would do if I was refused a TIN is to demand one by insisting I have tax to pay on rental income in Thailand, have assessible income from overseas I need to declare, or simply say, I want to reclaim tax paid on savings interest, significantly, FIXED Deposits. If they still said no, I'd go to the Regional office and if that failed I'd go and see Bangkok......but that's just me. And if Bangkok failed me, I'd get somebody to put it in writing or I'd record them and then I'd be very happy.