PJ71 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 5 hours ago, richard_smith237 said: They don't... The speedo was stuck at 160 kmh... The G force on impact could just as easily have swung the needle to zero, or higher (if in fact it was a needle and not a digital speedo)... Thus the interpretation of speed based on the 'damaged speedo' reading alone is highly flawed... That said - looking at the rear of the fortuner... the speed was 'jeffing fast'... 160 kmh is as good a guess as any.... could have been more, unlikely to be less than 80 kmh (just guessing from the damage). Hello Richard Smith, knew you would n't let me down. Bit slow to the party tho - tut tut. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liverpool Lou Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 2 hours ago, stoner said: 5 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said: 11 hours ago, webfact said: The speedometer on the deceased’s motorcycle indicated his speed to be over 160 km per hour Yet the XMax has a published top speed of only 140kph? bikes can easily be modified to reach those speeds. a quick youtube search will show you many of them that have been done. And the bike in question was? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 3 hours ago, kwilco said: 3 hours ago, richard_smith237 said: ts easy to understand how and why a lot of accidents occur in Thailand QED - absolutely not and that is the attitude that prevents progress. Road safety is a public health issue. the concept of "idiot" or "bad driver" is just plain stupid. Homun behaviour is pretty much constant the world over - what a good road safety plicyty does is protect people from the vagaries of driving Some countries are particularly good at doing this - the unfortunate side effect is that drivers from those countries mistakenly thing they should take the credit - they aren't good drivers, they are just proeteted by a good road safety policy and system. You mean... some countries educate and police the road users so fewer of them act like idiots... and for those who do act like idiots the consequences are minimised through road design. You may think this guy was not an idiot for riding a high speed and undertaking on the frontage road... most others would think thats one of the most idiotic things a person could do on a motorcycle.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liverpool Lou Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 2 hours ago, kwilco said: 3 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said: You, not having any hands-on experience of accident investigation in Thailand, are basing that "basically stone age" assertion on what, exactly? what do you base that assumption on? Your response - no rebuttal which is what someone without that experience would do! If you did have that specific experience you would have said so. Prove me wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liverpool Lou Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 2 hours ago, NoDisplayName said: 5 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said: Yet the XMax has a published top speed of only 140kph? That's the advertised top speed. I recall checking out cars in the used lot on Main Street in the early '80's, surprised that a corvette speedometer only went to 85 mph. Salesman explained government regulation requirement. This is not the US, we're not in the eighties and the vehicle in question was not a Corvette, it was a scooter in Thailand a few days ago that was not reported as showing any signs of modification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tord55 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 I got run into in Glenfarg, Scotland, by a nurse in a Russian car, when I turned she hit the accelerator accidentally. My bike was a former Yamaha 500 and I was an ex-biker, and ex-out-door guy who loved trekking. After two years of operations spread out between Scotland and Sweden, some years of physio and job training (while still in a wheelchair) I was back at work almost exactly eight years later. But I haven't trekked one yard since then, not even started a motorbike. You definitely don't have to have more speed than I had (20 mph) to die if a rugged, old-fashioned car like that Lada pushes you sideways coming at around 70 mph straight into my left leg, and by the force I flew through the air and banged into a Volvo (no damage to the Volvo) after a short trip through the air. After 13 operations I lost count, and around seven years after the latest operation (there might be more planned) I was back driving 18-meter articulated buses, downtown. On the way up through Britain, we had been passed by a guy who knew what he was doing, taking the turns like a pure artist over the Borders. Half an hour later we found the remains of his motobike. He had driven straight into the side of a car that reversed out from a garden with high bushes, and the road made a slight sweep just there, so he had probably seen the car just too late. He hit the little car on the left side with a massive force (almost cutting the car in two, so the female car driver didn't die at once, but he was a goner, definitely. in the next major city a scooter had collided in a four-way crossing, and of the scooter, there was next to nothing left (all the plastic parts had exploded but the car looked repairable. The police wanted to send the kid to hospital, but he said that take her, I don't need any checkup! The scooter driver, a youngster, had followed traffic rules while the young lady hadn't. The kid was a walking wounded, while girl was a goner, mentally. this happened just south of Edinburgh, and then it was my turn! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gottfrid Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 10 hours ago, rattlesnake said: More likely the impact damaged the speedometer. The largest XMAX model, the 400, can reach a top speed of 160, but it doesn't seem likely/possible that he was travelling at that speed on the road seen on the picture. Let´s just say, it would have been enough with 100. 😉 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gottfrid Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 (edited) 6 hours ago, richard_smith237 said: They don't... The speedo was stuck at 160 kmh... The G force on impact could just as easily have swung the needle to zero, or higher (if in fact it was a needle and not a digital speedo)... Thus the interpretation of speed based on the 'damaged speedo' reading alone is highly flawed... That said - looking at the rear of the fortuner... the speed was 'jeffing fast'... 160 kmh is as good a guess as any.... could have been more, unlikely to be less than 80 kmh (just guessing from the damage). Let´s just say like this Mr R. Smith. Looking at the picture and the damage. Do you think he was driving enough fast to do the work, or do you think it´s fake news? Just wondering. When will you seize your stupid posting? You see, it doesn´t matter what the F-K-G speedo was stuck at. Edited May 6 by Gottfrid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwilco Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said: You mean... some countries educate and police the road users so fewer of them act like idiots... No I mean ,many countries implement the 5 tenets of the "safe System" which is basically the blueprint for road safety. As someone who has driven extensively in Europe, Australia and Thailand as well as several other countries I can tell you I've never driven in a country with a shortage of idiots....just read t posts on this thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneMoreFarang Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 2 hours ago, mason 45 said: What about the recent trend females having tatts on their faces, irrespective of their age. Where? In Thailand? Apart from "eyebrow tats" I don't think I noticed anything like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post kwilco Posted May 6 Popular Post Share Posted May 6 1 hour ago, Liverpool Lou said: Your response - no rebuttal which is what someone without that experience would do! If you did have that specific experience you would have said so. Prove me wrong. why would I bother when all you are doing is sealioning? You are not worth a respone because you aren't even a part of the discussion. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwilco Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said: You mean... some countries educate and police the road users so fewer of them act like idiots... and for those who do act like idiots the consequences are minimised through road design. You may think this guy was not an idiot for riding a high speed and undertaking on the frontage road... most others would think thats one of the most idiotic things a person could do on a motorcycle.... No - I"m saying no such thing - I'm saying that it is quite clear that peope on this thread no nothing about road safety or looking/analysing RTIs.HEnce why playing the "blame game" is a fool's errand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tord55 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 Then many years later I travelled by car and saw some bikers more banged up than I was all those years later, probably a goner, with the E1 turned off for quite a while. He had been travelling down the road at speed and lost the grip in a turn, had skidded off the road and had got one of his legs caught in the ARMCO rack, often a deadly combination! So I don't drive bikes in Thailand! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoner Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 1 hour ago, Liverpool Lou said: And the bike in question was? you don't know that it wasn't either. mods don't necessarily have to be visual they can be internal. none of it matters. excess speed along with driving habits caused this accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SingAPorn Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 Did his helmet not protect the poor biker ? (rip of course and full respect no matter) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwilco Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 Why don’t people understand how to analyse a crash Firstly they seem to think because they have a driving license, they are some kind of expert. Everyone overestimates how good a driver they are and take views on other drivers that are basically racist. There is a clear difference between people's confidence in their road safety knowledge and their actual driving habits, that leads them to pointlessly play the blame game. They suffer from an ego and overconfidence, they think they're better drivers than they are. They focus on their successes (e.g., avoiding accidents) and underestimate the risks they take themselves (e.g., speeding a little). People may know the rules none of the nuances of safe driving. For instance, they might know speeding is bad but underestimate the danger of going slightly over the limit. They attribute any kind of aberrant driving to others but consider that they are above all that. They approach the topic with a combination of critical thinking fallacies cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias and a selective knowledge. They focus on avoiding danger to themselves again immediately apportioning blame to “others” e.g they perceive as different to them. they prioritize their own safety over others road users - , forgetting about pedestrians, cyclists, and any drivers who could be impacted by their decisions. As they don’t understand the basics they pick on one single issue without realising it isn’t a solution. They love to hone in on “driver education” but in reality it is their lack of education that leads them to believe this as they don’t actually know what that is. So many people on ASEAN NOW focus on passing the test, which is not learning in any country. In fact it normally is geared towards passing the test rather than long-term safe driving habits. And what they mistakenly call their own experience is in reality a lifetime of picking up bad habits. I notice that many people can pick up bad habits from poor observation, friends or family, and develop a false sense of security due to their experience without accidents, mistaking that for “good driving”. lifelong learning is great but it needs one to be open to new ideas so that driving skills and road rules can evolve, so encouraging drivers to stay updated can improve safety – I see none of that on this thread – just assumption and false confidence in their own superiority. However, whilst it is true that Thailand has very poor driver education the average local drivers are in fact more skilled than most foreigners at driving on Thai roads. Many foreigners miss out on crucial knowledge about traffic laws, (.e.g. priority to the left in Thailand) and more general defensive driving techniques, and in this case, the physics behind crashes. The latter being particularly obvious on this thread. If this thread shows anything it shows a failure to understand the complexity of road situations both static and dynamic. Traffic situations involve multiple factors. More than just the driver(s) it involves the environment, the road engineering vehicles weather conditions (heat etc) Analysing a crash requires understanding not just the immediate cause, but the chain of events leading up to it. This is particularly important when trying to understand a video – which otherwise can be very misleading. In this thread the only phot shows nothing of the surrounding area. Although it is a place I am familiar with. Another factor seen on this thread is the abundant reiteration of common misconceptions. People believe myths about safe driving (e.g., a rolling stop is okay) that can lead to bad habits. Force of impact, safe zones on cars as opposed to amount of visible damage. So before making rash, baseless and prejudiced judgements about this particular RTI, I think people should begin by understanding their own knowledge gaps, so then we can work towards creating a culture of safe driving and true understanding of the issues of road safety. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wobblybob Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 1 minute ago, kwilco said: Why don’t people understand how to analyse a crash Firstly they seem to think because they have a driving license, they are some kind of expert. Everyone overestimates how good a driver they are and take views on other drivers that are basically racist. There is a clear difference between people's confidence in their road safety knowledge and their actual driving habits, that leads them to pointlessly play the blame game. They suffer from an ego and overconfidence, they think they're better drivers than they are. They focus on their successes (e.g., avoiding accidents) and underestimate the risks they take themselves (e.g., speeding a little). People may know the rules none of the nuances of safe driving. For instance, they might know speeding is bad but underestimate the danger of going slightly over the limit. They attribute any kind of aberrant driving to others but consider that they are above all that. They approach the topic with a combination of critical thinking fallacies cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias and a selective knowledge. They focus on avoiding danger to themselves again immediately apportioning blame to “others” e.g they perceive as different to them. they prioritize their own safety over others road users - , forgetting about pedestrians, cyclists, and any drivers who could be impacted by their decisions. As they don’t understand the basics they pick on one single issue without realising it isn’t a solution. They love to hone in on “driver education” but in reality it is their lack of education that leads them to believe this as they don’t actually know what that is. So many people on ASEAN NOW focus on passing the test, which is not learning in any country. In fact it normally is geared towards passing the test rather than long-term safe driving habits. And what they mistakenly call their own experience is in reality a lifetime of picking up bad habits. I notice that many people can pick up bad habits from poor observation, friends or family, and develop a false sense of security due to their experience without accidents, mistaking that for “good driving”. lifelong learning is great but it needs one to be open to new ideas so that driving skills and road rules can evolve, so encouraging drivers to stay updated can improve safety – I see none of that on this thread – just assumption and false confidence in their own superiority. However, whilst it is true that Thailand has very poor driver education the average local drivers are in fact more skilled than most foreigners at driving on Thai roads. Many foreigners miss out on crucial knowledge about traffic laws, (.e.g. priority to the left in Thailand) and more general defensive driving techniques, and in this case, the physics behind crashes. The latter being particularly obvious on this thread. If this thread shows anything it shows a failure to understand the complexity of road situations both static and dynamic. Traffic situations involve multiple factors. More than just the driver(s) it involves the environment, the road engineering vehicles weather conditions (heat etc) Analysing a crash requires understanding not just the immediate cause, but the chain of events leading up to it. This is particularly important when trying to understand a video – which otherwise can be very misleading. In this thread the only phot shows nothing of the surrounding area. Although it is a place I am familiar with. Another factor seen on this thread is the abundant reiteration of common misconceptions. People believe myths about safe driving (e.g., a rolling stop is okay) that can lead to bad habits. Force of impact, safe zones on cars as opposed to amount of visible damage. So before making rash, baseless and prejudiced judgements about this particular RTI, I think people should begin by understanding their own knowledge gaps, so then we can work towards creating a culture of safe driving and true understanding of the issues of road safety. I guess not everybody can be as brilliant as you, however keep up your with your superiority complex, you never fail! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
it is what it is Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 given the location of the fortuner and bike damage i don't see how the victim was overtaking, surely common sense suggests it was more likely he was undertaking? dangerous at the best of times, at speed you could say suicidal... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 2 hours ago, Gottfrid said: 8 hours ago, richard_smith237 said: They don't... The speedo was stuck at 160 kmh... The G force on impact could just as easily have swung the needle to zero, or higher (if in fact it was a needle and not a digital speedo)... Thus the interpretation of speed based on the 'damaged speedo' reading alone is highly flawed... That said - looking at the rear of the fortuner... the speed was 'jeffing fast'... 160 kmh is as good a guess as any.... could have been more, unlikely to be less than 80 kmh (just guessing from the damage). Let´s just say like this Mr R. Smith. Looking at the picture and the damage. Do you think he was driving enough fast to do the work, or do you think it´s fake news? Just wondering. When will you seize your stupid posting? You see, it doesn´t matter what the F-K-G speedo was stuck at. That was kind of my point... the speedo reading is rather irrelevant, as irrelevant as using it as some form of evidence is flawed.... ... as written.. looking at the rear of the Fortuner, the speed was 'jeffing fast'... Not sure where you are getting the 'fake news' comment from - you are reading something into my comment that isn't there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwilco Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 1 hour ago, Wobblybob said: I guess not everybody can be as brilliant as you, however keep up your with your superiority complex, you never fail! sad and feeble - you only attack the messenger and not the message - so QED, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 1 hour ago, kwilco said: No - I"m saying no such thing - I'm saying that it is quite clear that peope on this thread no nothing about road safety or looking/analysing RTIs.HEnce why playing the "blame game" is a fool's errand. You mean you are the only person on this forum you believe has an understanding of road safety... ok, I get it. Are you going to copy and paste a long article about how its not an idiots fault when they break all traffic rules and die ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwilco Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 2 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said: ooking at the rear of the Fortuner, the speed was 'jeffing fast'... I'd say that is not a given at all. It also depends a lot of what the SUV was doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 1 hour ago, kwilco said: Why don’t people understand how to analyse a crash Why do you over analyse it ??? Someone on a motorcycle was riding recklessly with complete disregard for his own safety and that of others, speeding and undertaking on the frontage road into a stationary vehicle.... How much more 'analysis is needed' ??.... Sometimes people just do really stupid stuff... this guy did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 6 minutes ago, kwilco said: 9 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said: ooking at the rear of the Fortuner, the speed was 'jeffing fast'... I'd say that is not a given at all. It also depends a lot of what the SUV was doing. The Fortuner was reversing at 120 kmh and the motorcycle was riding at a very pedestrian 60kmh... I get the point you are trying to make, but there are better 'accidents' with which to make it... this crash has a very 'occam's razor' aspect to it.... 14 hours ago, webfact said: the driver of the car, told the police that he had parked there after a doctor's visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwilco Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 (edited) "the driver of the car, told the police that he had parked there after a doctor's visit." - what does heshe mean by "after" - this may or may not be true - but the main witness is dead and why would he park on the hard shoulder to see a doctor? - there is a huge open space off the road for parking there. There are a few dentists there and also the "Mind" clinic but I know of no doctor - they may have opened recently I suppose - there are enough pharmacies around there. Saying "after Doctor" hardly makes it more believable. Edited May 6 by kwilco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwilco Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said: Why do you over analyse it ??? no such thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwilco Posted May 6 Share Posted May 6 1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said: but there are better 'accidents' with which to make it ALL accidents in Thailand need to be analysed properly - they are not - this is the basis of any road safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJ71 Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 On 5/6/2024 at 4:55 PM, richard_smith237 said: Why do you over analyse it ??? Pot / Kettle / Black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korat Kiwi Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 (edited) On 5/7/2024 at 1:03 AM, kwilco said: ALL accidents in Thailand need to be analysed properly - they are not - this is the basis of any road safety. Some of what you wrote on Monday I agree with. Particularly with learned or passed down bad driving habits. Parents don't always make the best teachers! Prior to getting a full unrestricted motorbike licence in NZ I attended a few Ride for Life courses. It taught me a lot and highlighted many faults in my level of riding. As a result I became more safe on the road, aware of more hazards etc etc That is perhaps one of the many reasons why so many die on the roads here. Lack of education. Edited May 9 by Korat Kiwi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre0720 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 The problem seem again to originate from the selfishness of people here. The will stop anywhere, for any useless reason, including picking up a call, with total oblivion of other drivers on the road. I would thing that this is the origin of this accident, even if the motorbike was driving way too fast. His great driving skills were not match for the selfishness of the owner of the parked vehicle... Thai drivers are very good drivers. Just driving in the absence of road laws, in the absence of the resulting need for discipline while driving, will have lethal consequences... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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