British Pensioner Struggles with Frozen Pension in Thailand

[Toby1947]

On 6/1/2024 at 4:22 AM, Hornell said:

Many attempts have been made to get a UK Government to pay all UK expatriates the State pension that is rightfully theirs: all have fallen on stoney ground for reasons that are pretty incomprehensible to those of us on the receiving end. We have paid our NI contributions all our working lives (one assumes!) and we make no demands on the NHS. Private and Government Department (eg armed forces) pensions receive the annual increase; only the 'Old Age ' pension does not. It's not right, whatever the reasons to do with inter-country tax arrangements that are glibly trotted out. I feel very sorry for Mrs Fox and there will be many others in many countries around the world in a similar situation. It is no comfort to be told that we knew of (or should have known) about the regulation before we moved; it still doesn't make it right.

You make no demands on the NHS until things go pear shaped. Then scurry home cap in hand, tough sh#t.

[sambum]

21 hours ago, Nigeone said:

Our basic rate of pension , just gone up , triple lock etc , is £241.50 a week and that’s what every pensioner will get currently. Any extra is based on NI contributions and how long you’ve made them. I actually had 49 years in and when my pension was calculated you needed 40 years . Now it’s 35 I believe. 
And not to sound pedantic but we are not part of the UK . Never have been . Always causes a reaction lol

Similar reaction as Andy Murray gives when he's said to be Scottish when he wins and British when he loses I suppose!

[rocketboy2]

12 minutes ago, Toby1947 said:

You make no demands on the NHS until things go pear shaped. Then scurry home cap in hand, tough sh#t.

 

I'm happy for any British citizen to be treated by the NHS, regardless of there circumstances.

But I'm a 100% against the illegal's, walking straight through the open front door everyday.

Getting all that the uk has to offer from day one, and all uk citizens being pushed to the back of the line.

Disgusting uk politicians on all sides, they should all be ashamed of themselves.

 

 

[hardblogger]

31 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

But you will get 3 months back pay as I understand it from the day you apply.

Not from the date you apply, from the date you returned to UK . Once the process has been submitted and approved. 

[sandyf]

On 6/1/2024 at 6:12 AM, Georgealbert said:

Yes it is not fair, but being realistic it is not going to change, however many online petitions or stories like this appear.

 

The UK pension is a 100 years old next year, here is the history of why it remains frozen in Thailand.

 

1925 - Pension introduced and only payable in Great Britain, Northern Ireland and Isle Of Man.

 

1929 - The Contributory Pension Act, which allowed pensions to be paid in HM’s Dominions (as a means of encouraging emigration to countries of the ‘British Empire’).

 

1946 - The National Insurance Act and Regulations, provide that the pension was typically not paid abroad, except it was payable for pensioners in HM Dominions, or when an absence abroad didn’t exceed 12 months.

 

1948 - The first pension increase was from 10 shillings to 26 shillings per week.  This significant increase was not paid abroad because the pensioners concerned were deemed not to have made sufficient contribution to the new insurance scheme.

 

1948 to 1981 - First reciprocal agreements with France, Italy, Switzerland, the Netherlands and Luxembourg provided for uprating. There was a special arrangement for UK pensioners living in Ireland to also receive the state pension, but they didn’t receive the uprating until 1966. Later UK negotiated reciprocal agreements with 30 countries which allowed for uprating  (Barbados; Bermuda; Bosnia-Herzegovina; Croatia; Guernsey; Isle of Man; Israel; Jamaica; Jersey; Mauritius; Montenegro; the Philippines; Serbia; Turkey; the United States of America; and, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia plus all EU countries)

 

1955 - Pensions became payable anywhere in the world, but without uprating, without a reciprocal agreement.

 

So in 99 years of the pension, there has never been any uprating in Thailand, and before 1955 there would be nothing paid.

 

 

Historical precedence is no justification for anything.

If it was women wouldn't be able to vote and gay men would still go to prison, but maybe you support discrimination.

[hardblogger]

You make no demands on the NHS until things go pear shaped. Then scurry home cap in hand, tough sh#t.

 

 

Most of us pay tax. I certainly do. 

[sambum]

31 minutes ago, Toby1947 said:

You make no demands on the NHS until things go pear shaped. Then scurry home cap in hand, tough sh#t.

 

Bet you're a joy to be with at Xmas!

 

Yes, we "make no demands on the NHS until things go pear shaped" unlike the many thousands of people that make demands on the NHS every day - including thousands that have contributed nothing to the system.

 

You could say that we are actually saving the NHS money by living abroad, and because we have paid N.I. contributions all our working lives that we are subsidising these thousands of migrants, but in your eyes that's "tough sh*t" I suppose?

 

You appear to be one of these "I'm all right Jack" type of people, and I hope that one day you find yourself in need of help, and those you turn to say "tough sh*t"! Wonder how you'll feel then, Shylock?

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No, it's not "theft" and Boris did.

Maybe you would prefer to call it legalised fraud.

In 1948 the Old Age pension which was non contributory arrangement was replaces by the State Pension, a contributory scheme based on NI contributions.

In a contributory pension scheme, 2 people making the same level of contributions would be entitled to the same level of returns.

Obviously many on this forum would support discrimination in respect of returns.

 

[sambum]

11 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Historical precedence is no justification for anything.

If it was women wouldn't be able to vote and gay men would still go to prison, but maybe you support discrimination.

 

I have mentioned this before on here but I was at a Management Training Course many years ago, and the lecturer said that the biggest reason given for being averse to change was "But, we've always done it this way!"

 

Can be applied to many situations!

[ericbj]

19 hours ago, Kinok Farang said:

Can you repeat that please?

Apologies to those of limited attention span.

[Georgealbert]

44 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Historical precedence is no justification for anything.

If it was women wouldn't be able to vote and gay men would still go to prison, but maybe you support discrimination.

Really, did you read my post? The opening  words I used “Yes it is not fair.”

 

I then gave the true history and time line of the UK state pension. I really can only post the facts, I can’t help you to understand those facts.

 

Then you try to claim, I support discrimination, where from my post did you dream that up from? I awaiting an apology for such a false statement.

 

I have attached below the House of Commons briefing paper from 2018, on frozen pensions, which also gives the history.

 

https://www.narpo.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Frozen-Overseas-Pensions.pdf

[Kinok Farang]

13 minutes ago, ericbj said:

Apologies to those of limited attention span.

Hahaha,i asked for that.

[NoshowJones]

4 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

As someone affected by frozen pensions, I have never advocated for the policy.

"No, it's not "theft" ". What is that then?

[spidermike007]

It feels like a penalty, it's almost as if they're saying we are at the great nation, and if you choose not to live here we need to penalize you for not having the vision to see how great we are. 

[Tony M]

I contacted my MP about the subject of frozen pensions, and asked him about his stance and his party's stance I received this response :

 

 

On 26-Apr-24 5:44 PM, xxxxxxxxxxx MP wrote:

Dear Tony,

Thank you for getting back in touch with me about the uprating of UK pensions for people living overseas. 

I’m sure you are aware this is a difficult issue, which successive governments have struggled to find a solution to, but I am sympathetic to the position in which many pensioners find themselves.    

Whenever the UK Government has been asked about this issue – including earlier this year by some of my Opposition colleagues which you can see here – Ministers have consistently responded that they have no plans to change the current policy. 

I note that in response to a recent petition urging them to do so, the Pensions Minister stated that a decision to move abroad is a voluntary one. He insisted that individuals are responsible for understanding the implications if they make a decision to move abroad, and he argued that, for a number of years, the Government has provided what he called “clear information” about what those implications are in terms of pension entitlements. 

I understand the disappointment that will be felt by many at the Government’s stance, and I hope that Ministers will respond to the points made. I hope they will also listen carefully to the points raised by the APPG. The Government needs to make sure its position is made abundantly clear to all pensioners, especially as they approach pension age. 

Please be assured I will be keeping an eye on any developments in this matter, and this issue will continue to be considered by the Shadow Work and Pensions team. 

Thank you again for getting back in touch with me.

Kind regards,

xxxxxxxxxxxxx MP 

 

I am aware that, at the time of the previous general election, the Labour party had included unfreezing of frozen pensions in their manifesto (I think that is correct). I therefore responded to my MP as below :

 

Dear Mr xxxxxx,

 

Thank you for your response. It is, of course, disappointing.  At the time of the last (I believe) election the Labour Party promised to unfreeze pensions for those pensioners living overseas in countries that do not receive uprating.  I have to ask why that promise has changed ?  Why are we no longer deserving of this ?  The fact that some pensioners are still receiving the level of pension that they had when they left UK many years ago is, to be fair, disgusting.

 

You say that this "this is a difficult issue". I would have to disagree. It's a very simple issue. Make pension uprating the norm for all pensioners, no matter where they reside. What could be simpler than that ? We have paid our dues in UK, many of us, including me, for more than 40 years, and now we are penalised ?  Why ? 

 

You say that moving overseas is voluntary decision. That is so, and so is my choice of who to vote for. I'm sure that the implication is clear.

 

Regards,

 

Tony M

 

The MP has not responded

 

 

[Tony M]

Here is an interesting "explanation" of the background to frozen pensions, and more

SN01457.pdf

[Baht Simpson]

40 minutes ago, Tony M said:

I contacted my MP about the subject of frozen pensions, and asked him about his stance and his party's stance I received this response :

 

 

On 26-Apr-24 5:44 PM, xxxxxxxxxxx MP wrote:

Dear Tony,

Thank you for getting back in touch with me about the uprating of UK pensions for people living overseas. 

I’m sure you are aware this is a difficult issue, which successive governments have struggled to find a solution to, but I am sympathetic to the position in which many pensioners find themselves.    

Whenever the UK Government has been asked about this issue – including earlier this year by some of my Opposition colleagues which you can see here – Ministers have consistently responded that they have no plans to change the current policy. 

I note that in response to a recent petition urging them to do so, the Pensions Minister stated that a decision to move abroad is a voluntary one. He insisted that individuals are responsible for understanding the implications if they make a decision to move abroad, and he argued that, for a number of years, the Government has provided what he called “clear information” about what those implications are in terms of pension entitlements. 

I understand the disappointment that will be felt by many at the Government’s stance, and I hope that Ministers will respond to the points made. I hope they will also listen carefully to the points raised by the APPG. The Government needs to make sure its position is made abundantly clear to all pensioners, especially as they approach pension age. 

Please be assured I will be keeping an eye on any developments in this matter, and this issue will continue to be considered by the Shadow Work and Pensions team. 

Thank you again for getting back in touch with me.

Kind regards,

xxxxxxxxxxxxx MP 

 

I am aware that, at the time of the previous general election, the Labour party had included unfreezing of frozen pensions in their manifesto (I think that is correct). I therefore responded to my MP as below :

 

Dear Mr xxxxxx,

 

Thank you for your response. It is, of course, disappointing.  At the time of the last (I believe) election the Labour Party promised to unfreeze pensions for those pensioners living overseas in countries that do not receive uprating.  I have to ask why that promise has changed ?  Why are we no longer deserving of this ?  The fact that some pensioners are still receiving the level of pension that they had when they left UK many years ago is, to be fair, disgusting.

 

You say that this "this is a difficult issue". I would have to disagree. It's a very simple issue. Make pension uprating the norm for all pensioners, no matter where they reside. What could be simpler than that ? We have paid our dues in UK, many of us, including me, for more than 40 years, and now we are penalised ?  Why ? 

 

You say that moving overseas is voluntary decision. That is so, and so is my choice of who to vote for. I'm sure that the implication is clear.

 

Regards,

 

Tony M

 

The MP has not responded

 

 

Angela Rayner is the Shadow Deputy Leader and probable Deputy PM in a few weeks. It might be appropriate to remind her of her words from 2016. 

 

'The cause is also being supported by shadow pensions minister Angela Rayner who described frozen pensions as ‘unfair and illogical’.

 

"Over 550,000 people are losing over half their money they worked hard for. The fought for their country, they worked hard, paid national insurance and paid tax, it is unjust and something has to be done,’ she said.

‘It comes down to decency…it is disrespectful not to [uprate pensions].’"

 

https://citywire.com/funds-insider/news/breakthrough-for-frozen-pensioners-living-abroad/a877900

 

Oliver Letwin, the Tory minister agreed and proposed a partial uprating. But that would be a disaster for several reasons. 

 

There's no excuse for any of this but I won't hold my breath on anything happening.

[sambum]

36 minutes ago, Tony M said:

I contacted my MP about the subject of frozen pensions, and asked him about his stance and his party's stance I received this response :

 

 

On 26-Apr-24 5:44 PM, xxxxxxxxxxx MP wrote:

Dear Tony,

Thank you for getting back in touch with me about the uprating of UK pensions for people living overseas. 

I’m sure you are aware this is a difficult issue, which successive governments have struggled to find a solution to, but I am sympathetic to the position in which many pensioners find themselves.    

Whenever the UK Government has been asked about this issue – including earlier this year by some of my Opposition colleagues which you can see here – Ministers have consistently responded that they have no plans to change the current policy. 

I note that in response to a recent petition urging them to do so, the Pensions Minister stated that a decision to move abroad is a voluntary one. He insisted that individuals are responsible for understanding the implications if they make a decision to move abroad, and he argued that, for a number of years, the Government has provided what he called “clear information” about what those implications are in terms of pension entitlements. 

I understand the disappointment that will be felt by many at the Government’s stance, and I hope that Ministers will respond to the points made. I hope they will also listen carefully to the points raised by the APPG. The Government needs to make sure its position is made abundantly clear to all pensioners, especially as they approach pension age. 

Please be assured I will be keeping an eye on any developments in this matter, and this issue will continue to be considered by the Shadow Work and Pensions team. 

Thank you again for getting back in touch with me.

Kind regards,

xxxxxxxxxxxxx MP 

 

I am aware that, at the time of the previous general election, the Labour party had included unfreezing of frozen pensions in their manifesto (I think that is correct). I therefore responded to my MP as below :

 

Dear Mr xxxxxx,

 

Thank you for your response. It is, of course, disappointing.  At the time of the last (I believe) election the Labour Party promised to unfreeze pensions for those pensioners living overseas in countries that do not receive uprating.  I have to ask why that promise has changed ?  Why are we no longer deserving of this ?  The fact that some pensioners are still receiving the level of pension that they had when they left UK many years ago is, to be fair, disgusting.

 

You say that this "this is a difficult issue". I would have to disagree. It's a very simple issue. Make pension uprating the norm for all pensioners, no matter where they reside. What could be simpler than that ? We have paid our dues in UK, many of us, including me, for more than 40 years, and now we are penalised ?  Why ? 

 

You say that moving overseas is voluntary decision. That is so, and so is my choice of who to vote for. I'm sure that the implication is clear.

 

Regards,

 

Tony M

 

The MP has not responded

 

 

 

 

[sambum]

1 minute ago, sambum said:

 

 

 

Probably working on a few more promises which can be broken! 😡

[Liverpool Lou]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

7 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No, it's not "theft" and Boris did.

Maybe you would prefer to call it legalised fraud.

No, no one in their right mind would call it that, either, I'd just call it the rules of the state pension scheme.

[Liverpool Lou]

2 hours ago, NoshowJones said:

7 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

As someone affected by frozen pensions, I have never advocated for the policy.

"No, it's not "theft" ". What is that then?

It's one of the rules of the state pension scheme that has been made public for something like 70 years, that's what it is.

[Liverpool Lou]

4 hours ago, brianthainess said:

7 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

"State Pensions are now generated by those working".

That is nothing new, it has always been the case, your NICs are not "yours" in an individual fund.

Actually if you are signing on the dole, i.e. NOT Working  your NI contributions are still paid. 

I know that, I was quoting BritScot, tell him.

[Liverpool Lou]

7 hours ago, bradiston said:

Bottom line is, a very quick fix for Thai expats is to register an address in Philippines. I'm not advising fraud. I'm just saying if it's an emergency... It's perfectly legal as long as you're there for 180 days (I think). The DWP in my experience were very helpful, no grilling, just an address, a phone number

No problems as long as residence in PI can be proven. I believe if they are suspicious of a frozen pensioner conveniently "moving" from a frozen country to a non-frozen one, such as the PI, they'll be looking for passport stamps as evidence. 

[bradiston]

7 hours ago, hardblogger said:

 

Wrong, you are advising fraud. I don't want to register anywhere illegally, I am not that bothered, I get 135,000 baht pension a month. Why would I put that at risk?  The OAP by the way is 35,000 baht.
military 100,000 

 

They do have the resources, slow, but they are there, they know we are out of the country, we get paid from a differerent source. Its not a case of having all 3, its not a seperate pension, it is an annual increase. its  

 

Why is that a catch, we have just had the annual April rise. (If you register that you are back in UK, it is backdated to the day you arrive, so you would get it, but it also goes back to the level it is now, when you return. So a lot of work if you are only going back for a year or two. But if it were a lot of money the lady in the article, worth it.  

Excuse me. Where do I advise fraud? I said  you will need to live there for 180 days. Please retract your accusations.

 

And let me know, out of curiosity, how they know where we are resident? Passport data? Is that shared now?

 

And all three refers to the will, the resoures and the capability. I don't believe they have a single one of those.

[bradiston]

1 hour ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No problems as long as residence in PI can be proven. I believe if they are suspicious of a frozen pensioner conveniently "moving" from a frozen country to a non-frozen one, such as the PI, they'll be looking for passport stamps as evidence. 

I don't think passport stamps are reliable as evidence. Some immigration don't stamp. This has come up so many times, Lou. Every year. Somebody unearthed some statistics on benefit fraud relating to pensions. I think there has been one prosecution in 50 years. That could change, which is why i advise caution.

 

Of course, tracking pensioners, amongst everybody else who travels abroad, might well become feasible if all countries signed up to some treaty that enabled it, which of course most have for banking fraud/money laundering etc.

 

I'm aware that many people keep a UK address after they leave the UK. I don't. But I don't go round crying wolf about other people's business. It always surprises me the tone of moral outrage people adopt when they seem to feel hard done by. I pay taxes is a favourite, so why should I support you? Hey, i still pay taxes in the UK. Both my pensions are taxed. It's just they don't even reach a taxable amount.

[edwarda909]

I would like this to be a site where people can be helpful and use their energy to find s solution. If we frame the problem as a defect in the UK government, then we run into a dead end.  So lets reframe the problem so we can perhaps find a real solution.  I do not know if this will pan out for you or not, but a few minutes on the internet brought up a coupe of links that might be useful.  If not, we can keep looking to find a solution.   https://www.pulse-clinic.com/medical-certificate-fit-to-fly-travel-clearance     https://www.pulse-clinic.com/booking/location  Stay in touch. 

[sandyf]

10 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

Really, did you read my post? The opening  words I used “Yes it is not fair.”

 

I then gave the true history and time line of the UK state pension. I really can only post the facts, I can’t help you to understand those facts.

 

Then you try to claim, I support discrimination, where from my post did you dream that up from? I awaiting an apology for such a false statement.

 

I have attached below the House of Commons briefing paper from 2018, on frozen pensions, which also gives the history.

 

https://www.narpo.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Frozen-Overseas-Pensions.pdf

I am well aware of the history and it is nothing to do with being "fair" and anyone who thinks that way is effectively saying it is acceptable to discriminate.

Goverment revenue to support the state pension is by default index linked so any entitlement to a pension from "actual" contributions should be index linked otherwise it is legalised fraud. 

[sandyf]

7 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

No, no one in their right mind would call it that, either, I'd just call it the rules of the state pension scheme.

You are perfectly free to believe that no government legislation can be unlawful.

[sandyf]

On 6/1/2024 at 3:06 PM, Liverpool Lou said:

They went towards the entire social security system, not just your own state pension.

Wrong , they didn't go towards the social security system.

Right, they didn't go for your own state pension, they provided pensions for the pensioners at the time, on the basis that when you became a pensioner you would receive a pension under the same arrangement.

 

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, happyaussie said:

To receive an Australian old age pension you must reside in Australia.

Is the Australian old age pension a contibutory pension scheme?