British Pensioner Struggles with Frozen Pension in Thailand

[Georgealbert]

17 minutes ago, Yorkshire Tea said:

 

What would be the best way to "get around this" if you return, but are no longer registered with a local GP?  Don't you have to get a GP to refer you for hospital treatment, or can you go direct to the local hospital?  Asking about if you feel ill on a return trip to UK.

There have been a few people here on this forum, who have gone back to get treatment, so they will be best to answer how it is done, from a personal point of view. I have no intention of going to the UK, for treatment myself.

 

The government website says “To get free NHS healthcare you will need to prove that you’ve returned to the UK to live and you meet the ordinary residence test.”

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-the-nhs-when-you-return-to-live-in-the-uk

 

Yes you may have to be a bit creative to find 2 of the required documents, but I know most could.

 

As most people who are going back for treatment, would normally mean a fairly serious problem, and emergency treatment is always free, so some may have to go to hospital first.

[sidneybear]

9 hours ago, soalbundy said:

Pensions are a benefit, not a right in the UK. Your contributions pay for the old folk they are not contributions for your own old age, your pension is paid by the contributions of the dwindling number of young workers (demographics suck). Without immigration of young workers there will be no pensions in the future.

She will get no help in the UK, she's been away too long, she will have to wait around 2 years to get benefits although her pension will jump up but where would she stay?

That's not true. Your entitlement to a pension is based solely on the number of years you've paid National insurance prior to retirement age. It's all here: 

 

https://www.gov.uk/new-state-pension

[PeeJayEm]

On 6/2/2024 at 2:09 AM, Baht Simpson said:

That's idiotic. If we all returned home all our pensions would be uprated and we would all get higher pensions which the taxpayers including yourself would have to fund. Not to mention all the U.K.benefits that are denied us. Be careful what you wish for. 

If if if. Ofcourse if.  But utterly irrelevant.  The government doesn't pay in contravention of  the statutes on the basis of ifs.

Ofcourse it's fine if people return to reside in U.K.  They'll then be contributing to the economy, if not by paying income tax, at least by spending and paying VAT and increasing circulation in the economy. Not idiotic at all.  What you're looking for is a U.K. sized pension in Thailand sized price environment, without contributing anything  to the U.K. current account to pay for it.  Quite self-centred and greedy really.

[Baht Simpson]

8 minutes ago, PeeJayEm said:

If if if. Ofcourse if.  But utterly irrelevant.  The government doesn't pay in contravention of  the statutes on the basis of ifs.

Ofcourse it's fine if people return to reside in U.K.  They'll then be contributing to the economy, if not by paying income tax, at least by spending and paying VAT and increasing circulation in the economy. Not idiotic at all.  What you're looking for is a U.K. sized pension in Thailand sized price environment, without contributing anything  to the U.K. current account to pay for it.  Quite self-centred and greedy really.

Incorrect. I'm a UK. tax payer and contribute to the U.K. economy in other ways too. As I'm not availing myself of any of the benefits of that tax I'm effectively subsidizing the U.K. resident taxpayers. All I'm asking for in return is fairness in the uprating of the State Pension.

Edited June 4 by Baht Simpson

[PeeJayEm]

4 minutes ago, Baht Simpson said:

Incorrect. I'm a UK. tax payer and contribute to the U.K. economy in other ways too. As I'm not availing myself of any of the benefits of that tax I'm effectively subsidizing the U.K. resident taxpayers. All I'm asking for in return is fairness in the uprating of the State Pension.

Barking at the moon. It's been this way for 70 years and isn't going to change.

Edited June 4 by PeeJayEm
Typo

[Baht Simpson]

5 hours ago, PeeJayEm said:

Barking at the moon. It's been this way for 70 years and isn't going to change.

I agree. It's not going to change. 

[kiwikeith]

On 6/3/2024 at 7:12 PM, bradiston said:

Canada is listed as being a reciprocal. Maybe ask the IPC? The International Pensions Centre? Maybe the list on gov.uk is out of date.

Canada, Greece, NZ, Denmark, UK, Australia,  have reciprocal agreements, but try to move and collect it in Canada, very hard, Spain, not sure, but you can not get both at once, you can get part of one with the other, making up one pension total, depends on how long you lived in each country, the only gain you make collecting both separately is from the exchange rate, if you take the whole pension from UK and NZ, in NZ and let the nz govt do it, the NZ govt pays you the whole new Zealand pension, and they benefit from the exchange rate, must be a million or more UK migrants live in NZ on British NZ pension 

[Felton Jarvis]

On 6/2/2024 at 11:01 AM, freeworld said:

 

The US does send a little bit for some top activities.

 

https://www.foreignassistance.gov/cd/united kingdom/

Brits deserve better terms. They should not be forced to live outside the UK merely to exist on a reasonable income. Americans don't have to deal with this, why should Brits?

[sandyf]

On 6/3/2024 at 11:19 PM, Georgealbert said:

I post real facts, with credible links about the history of the state pension, but sorry I am unable to help you understand those facts.

In your so called history you omitted several significant factors which would indicate a lack of understanding or a certain point of view. I gave you the benefit of the doubt on understanding but may have been wrong on that. i will help you try and understand one of the most recent discriminatory factors.

Anyone who was employed between 1977 and 2016 would have accrued additional state pension. Under the 1975 pension reforms those in an occupational pension scheme were allowed to contract out of the state additional pension where part of the NI contributions went to the occupational pension.

Why did you not include in your history that there are expats in Thailand receiving part of their state pension index linked included in their occupational or private pension?

Those that weren't allowed to contract out never had that option.

[Georgealbert]

6 hours ago, sandyf said:

In your so called history you omitted several significant factors which would indicate a lack of understanding or a certain point of view. I gave you the benefit of the doubt on understanding but may have been wrong on that. i will help you try and understand one of the most recent discriminatory factors.

Anyone who was employed between 1977 and 2016 would have accrued additional state pension. Under the 1975 pension reforms those in an occupational pension scheme were allowed to contract out of the state additional pension where part of the NI contributions went to the occupational pension.

Why did you not include in your history that there are expats in Thailand receiving part of their state pension index linked included in their occupational or private pension?

Those that weren't allowed to contract out never had that option.

My history covered the key details of why the state pension is frozen and I tried to keep it brief.

 

I also provided a link to the historical background, presented in the House of Commons briefing paper, The All Party  Parliamentary Group, which supported an upgrading, maybe read it again. I can only post the link, sorry if you fail to understand the details in that link.

 

Again you fail to show how my comment was in anyway supporting discrimination, which you accused me of.

 

If you contracted out of the state additional pension, your state pension payments are still frozen. Your occupational or private pensions, are different schemes, covered by different rules, just more defection.

 

Bye, have a good day.

Edited June 6 by Georgealbert

[mommysboy]

On 6/4/2024 at 6:26 PM, Georgealbert said:

There have been a few people here on this forum, who have gone back to get treatment, so they will be best to answer how it is done, from a personal point of view. I have no intention of going to the UK, for treatment myself.

 

The government website says “To get free NHS healthcare you will need to prove that you’ve returned to the UK to live and you meet the ordinary residence test.”

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-the-nhs-when-you-return-to-live-in-the-uk

 

Yes you may have to be a bit creative to find 2 of the required documents, but I know most could.

 

As most people who are going back for treatment, would normally mean a fairly serious problem, and emergency treatment is always free, so some may have to go to hospital first.

 

Pensioners (66 and over at the current time) get free health care as a matter of policy if not actual law.

[sandyf]

9 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

If you contracted out of the state additional pension, your state pension payments are still frozen.

Good distortion.

Obviously not prepared to acknowledge the true facts.

[gearbox]

On 6/4/2024 at 7:12 PM, sidneybear said:

That's not true. Your entitlement to a pension is based solely on the number of years you've paid National insurance prior to retirement age. It's all here: 

 

https://www.gov.uk/new-state-pension

I'm not from UK but was interested to see if the Brits have a state pension which is proportional to the contributions....seems it is not quite there.

 

A person on £250k yearly income pays times more yearly contribution than a person on £25k, but seems both persons would get the same pension for the same number of qualifying years. Separately the people on jobseeker benefits get qualifying years without paying anything.

 

There was a study in Australia claiming that the bottom 50% of the taxpayers are getting more from the government than they are contributing in taxes. The usual "I paid taxes all my life" brigade.

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

 55555 so again absolutely nothing.

 

You have yet to show me where in my threads I support discrimination, as you accused.

Here is a link to the government website on contracting out before 2016.

 

https://www.gov.uk/contracted-out#:~:text=The Additional State Pension was,Second Pension or 'SERPs'.&text=If you were contracted out of the Additional State Pension,a workplace or private pension

 

Please supply me a link to show that part of the UK State Pension is not frozen, because of contracting out. Uprating of an occupational or private pensions, after contracting out, is not an increase in you state pension.

Many are unaware that their occupational pension was partially funded from NI contributions. Others are aware but prefer to ignore the fact they are party to a discriminatory policy. Easier to deny the reality.

You obviously didn't really understand the link you posted, relevant text

"If you were contracted out of the Additional State Pension, some of your National Insurance contributions were either:

lower than people who were not contracted out

paid into another pension, for example a workplace or private pension"

[Georgealbert]

8 hours ago, sandyf said:

Many are unaware that their occupational pension was partially funded from NI contributions. Others are aware but prefer to ignore the fact they are party to a discriminatory policy. Easier to deny the reality.

You obviously didn't really understand the link you posted, relevant text

"If you were contracted out of the Additional State Pension, some of your National Insurance contributions were either:

lower than people who were not contracted out

paid into another pension, for example a workplace or private pension"

What are you talking about? How is anyone party to a discriminatory policy if they were contracted out?

I fully understand the link I posted, it is clearly you that fail to see the difference between a frozen state pension and a workplace pension, which is upgraded.

 

Yes if contracted out, you NI were either lower or paid into another pension, but that would now affect the amount state pension you will receive.

 

From the link.-  https://www.gov.uk/contracted-out#:~:text=The Additional State Pension was,Second Pension or 'SERPs'.&text=If you were contracted out of the Additional State Pension,a workplace or private pension

 

“If you reached State Pension age before 6 April 2016

 

You might not get any Additional State Pension, or get a small amount, from the time you were contracted out.
 

You still get the basic State Pension if you were contracted out.

 

If you reached State Pension age on or after 6 April 2016

 

If you were contracted out before 6 April 2016, you might not get the full rate new State Pension of £221.20 a week.

 

An amount is taken off your new State Pension if you were contracted out. This is because either:

 

- you paid National Insurance contributions at a lower rate

- some of the National Insurance contributions you paid were used to contribute to a workplace or private pension

 

How much is taken off depends on how long you were contracted out and your earnings at the time. While you were contracted out, you were paying into your workplace or personal pension instead.”

 

What ever amount of state pension you end up receiving, that state pension amount is still frozen in Thailand.

 

However your occupational or pension was funded, NI contributions, employee contributions or employer contributions, it is NOT part of your state pension, it is a separate pension.

 

Have a good day, but remember that your arrogance is a poor disguise for your ignorance.

[lamyai3]

On 6/1/2024 at 3:03 PM, Expatwannabee said:

The article says she is 87 yrs old and left 24 yrs ago at age 63.( women qualified for their pension at age 60 then. Men at 65). The article does not tell us if she was getting a full state pension or not. Only that it was frozen at £300.

Looks likely that she was - the amount of a full state pension in 2000 (frozen 3 years after she retired) would have been £67.50pw / £292.50 per month. 

[sambum]

On 6/7/2024 at 10:02 PM, theblether said:

Lets get to the core of this. 

 

"I'm emigrating." 

 

"Oh, no - life overseas has got difficult." 

 

"I want to come back." 

 

"No airline will accept me." 

 

*Blames government. 

 

"The core of it" is the unfairness of the whole "frozen pensions" fiasco, which I believe is only applicable to the UK, and no other country penalises their own citizens for living abroad while welcoming immigrants with open arms, and gives billions away in Foreign Aid every year - especially as the matter could be easily resolved. From a House of Commons statement:-

 

" BRIEFING PAPER   Number 1457, 8 February 2021   Frozen overseas pensions :-

16. Reciprocal social security agreements are not entered into solely with a view to paying annual uprating increases to UK pensioners living abroad. They are not strictly necessary for that purpose as uprating can be achieved through UK domestic legislation… "

 

Edited June 9 by sambum

[sidneybear]

On 6/7/2024 at 5:05 PM, gearbox said:

I'm not from UK but was interested to see if the Brits have a state pension which is proportional to the contributions....seems it is not quite there.

 

A person on £250k yearly income pays times more yearly contribution than a person on £25k, but seems both persons would get the same pension for the same number of qualifying years. Separately the people on jobseeker benefits get qualifying years without paying anything.

 

There was a study in Australia claiming that the bottom 50% of the taxpayers are getting more from the government than they are contributing in taxes. The usual "I paid taxes all my life" brigade.

That's how taxation works in general. Those who earn more, pay more, but the welfare and social security payments are fixed and are the same for everyone.

 

Anything above the minimum varies from country to country. In Australia, for example, pensions over and above the state minimum are based on contributions that are linked to your income. Australia allows you tax deductions for paying additional contributions into your superannuation pension account.

[sambum]

On 6/5/2024 at 5:59 AM, PeeJayEm said:

If if if. Ofcourse if.  But utterly irrelevant.  The government doesn't pay in contravention of  the statutes on the basis of ifs.

Ofcourse it's fine if people return to reside in U.K.  They'll then be contributing to the economy, if not by paying income tax, at least by spending and paying VAT and increasing circulation in the economy. Not idiotic at all.  What you're looking for is a U.K. sized pension in Thailand sized price environment, without contributing anything  to the U.K. current account to pay for it.  Quite self-centred and greedy really.

 

And you conveniently forget - as has been mentioned a few times already - that pensioners living abroad do not claim free NHS treatment etc etc etc  I can't be bothered to list them all, but let's face it - if all the pensioners living abroad suddenly returned to the UK, the cost to the Government would be MANY times more than the cost would be for paying annual increments to their pensions!!!

 

"Quite self-centred and greedy really"? I would suggest that that statement could equally be applied to people like yourself that seem to have an "I'm all right Jack" attitude towards UK pensioners that live abroad on frozen pensions!.

[sambum]

On 6/5/2024 at 6:10 AM, PeeJayEm said:

Barking at the moon. It's been this way for 70 years and isn't going to change.

 

"We've always done it this way" 

 

With that kind of attitude, we would still have square wheels on our chariots!

[sandyf]

On 6/5/2024 at 5:35 AM, Baht Simpson said:

I agree. It's not going to change. 

Probably, politicians tend to suffer from selective memory.

 

“The next Labour Government will treat all our pensioners equally, wherever they live, and ensure that overseas pensions are levelled up not down when Britain leaves the EU.”

https://frozenbritishpensions.org/jeremy-corbyn-gives-labours-backing-pension-unfreezing/

[sandyf]

On 6/7/2024 at 11:05 AM, gearbox said:

I'm not from UK but was interested to see if the Brits have a state pension which is proportional to the contributions....seems it is not quite there.

The ignorance on this issue has led you to that conclusion.

Up until 2016 the UK state pension was in 2 parts, one was fixed and the other based on income. About 50% of my state pension is income related.

Some wish to deny they are receiving the second part and that it is fully index linked.

[sambum]

Slightly off topic, but those whose pension is frozen probably do not get the "Old Age Winter Fuel Allowance", which is fair enough.

 

But just as a matter of interest, I wonder how many people resident in the UK having an income of say, more than £100,000 a year refuse it as they don't need it?

Edited June 9 by sambum

[sandyf]

On 6/5/2024 at 12:10 AM, PeeJayEm said:

Barking at the moon. It's been this way for 70 years and isn't going to change.

Time will tell.

From page 76 of the 2019 labour party manifesto.

 

"We will ensure that the pensions of UK citizens living overseas rise in line with pensions in Britain"

https://www.sipotra.it/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Labour-Party-Manifesto-2019.pdf

[sambum]

26 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Time will tell.

From page 76 of the 2019 labour party manifesto.

 

"We will ensure that the pensions of UK citizens living overseas rise in line with pensions in Britain"

https://www.sipotra.it/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Labour-Party-Manifesto-2019.pdf

 

I think that you may find that politicians have short memories - 5 years is an awfully long time in politics.

However, with an upcoming election, and it looking like the Tories are going to be ousted, it may well be a very apt time to remind them, and ask again! 

Edited June 9 by sambum

[Baht Simpson]

27 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Time will tell.

From page 76 of the 2019 labour party manifesto.

 

"We will ensure that the pensions of UK citizens living overseas rise in line with pensions in Britain"

https://www.sipotra.it/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Labour-Party-Manifesto-2019.pdf

I imagine this will be quietly dropped from the 2024 manifesto. 

[Georgealbert]

5 hours ago, sandyf said:

Those that refuse to acknowledge the facts contribute to the discrimination.

55555

 

So again you post nothing to support you claims and accusations. I posted the facts and I have stated I do not support the frozen pensions.

 

You clearly do not understand the difference between the state pension and a occupational pension, after being contracted out.
 

Let me state the facts again. (Facts do not show any bias).

 

- The UK state pension will be a 100 years old in 2025.

- From 1925 to 1955, if you lived in Thailand, you got no payment.

- 1929 The Contributory Pension Act, which allowed the pensions to be paid in HM’s Dominion (Thailand not included)

- 1948 The first time the pension was increased, but this increase was not paid abroad.

- 1948 to 1981 Reciprocal agreements with countries. (There is not one with Thailand)

- 1955  Payments were made available worldwide, but without uprating, without a reciprocal agreement.

- Since 1925 The pension has not been uprated if you live in Thailand, and only paid from 1955.

 

 

 

 

[kimamey]

On 6/1/2024 at 3:31 PM, NorthernRyland said:

This is how you get ruled over by foreigners. When push comes to shove they will stand behind other Indians before any of you English people. Same for the mayor of London. The same legal status as everyone else but who does he serve? Not you I can assure. 

My post merely stated that Rishi Sunak isn't an immigrant in answer to someone who seemed to suggest he was. That means he isn't a foreigner and nor is Sadiq Khan because he was born in London. I'm not sure why that is so difficult to understand. I do notice that neither of them are white or born to parents from western countries so I assume that might be your logic. 

We don't know how anyone would react when it comes to who they would back, but I don't see any evidence that either Rishi Sunak or Sadiq Khan would back Indians or Pakistanis respectively over UK citizens. In fact Nigel Farage supports Trump who would probably undermine the UK and share our secrets with Putin.

 

None of this has anything to do with the OP. It's a difficult position to find yourself in. As for knowing what you're doing when you move to Thailand, or anywhere else, it's not that simple. When I first met my now wife I would have just turned 43. We had no idea how we would get on and when we later met and saw that we liked each other I didn't think to rush to the DWP website to check out state pension entitlement. In fact the issue only came up in 2021 a year after I first received my pension. I'd previously spent 3 months in the UK then 3 in Thailand and so on, initially working whist in the UK. I was always in the UK slightly longer than 6 months. I stayed with my mother in her 2 bedroom flat. She's in her 90s and liked that I was there at least some of the time. Covid messed that up a bit but I planned on returning to the 3 month cycle. Then she needed to move and a one bedroom flat came up so I lost my place to stay in March 2022. I still go back, but it's expensive and it's not easy managing 6 months.

 

One thing, other than pensions that I think needs to be considered is what happens if you lose mobility and need a wheelchair. Many pavements/sidewalks aren't pedestrian friendly let alone suitable for wheelchairs. You may need to return to your home country.

[ElwoodP]

Reported off topic and bickering posts removed.