Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[MeePeeMai]

20 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Rats!!!!

 

That means unless there is some revision to forms enabling me to state my non-assessable income, I am sure to be called in, and it will be a huge headache to say the least.  Not a soul there speaks a word of English, all but very high level people have never heard of a foreigner retiring in Thailand (there are very, very, very few such in the province) and believe it is not possible/ no applicable visa category.  None have  any idea what US Social Security is, and I would be amazed if any will know anything about DTAs.

 

If I have   to hire an accountant familiar with DTAs to accompany me  it will be very costly -- they would have to come from Bangkok or Pattaya (6 hour roundtrip in both cases).

 

rats, rats, rats...

 

My fear exactly, that and the fact that they will probably force us to use our nearest RD office for the tax nightmare (RD office nearest to our home address listed for for 90 day reports). 

 

I'm not even sure they will let an accountant from Bangkok prepare your taxes for you.  He/she would certainly have to be willing to come with you to your local RD office (on your dime of course)  if you were called in for some reason.

 

And I certainly don't want to try to explain a double tax treaty to the RD staff here or have them severely misinterpret it.  

 

These are some very dark clouds on the horizon it seems.. especially for some unfortunate victims (me included).

[MeePeeMai]

21 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

 

US capital gains can be offset by capital losses. 

 

 

 

 

Only up to a maximum of $3000 USD per year, although any excess losses over and above the $3000 in one year can be carried forward to the next year(s).

[beammeup]

I think there is AI tax systems that will easily tell them how much tax is owed by an individual as long as the data is accurate and the perimeters are correct. The world is changing.

[MeePeeMai]

3 minutes ago, beammeup said:

I think there is AI tax systems that will easily tell them how much tax is owed by an individual as long as the data is accurate and the perimeters are correct. The world is changing.

 

At this point in time, I wouldn't trust A.I. as far as I could spit.

[Sheryl]

16 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

My fear exactly, that and the fact that they will probably force us to use our nearest RD office for the tax nightmare (RD office nearest to our home address listed for for 90 day reports). 

 

I'm not even sure they will let an accountant from Bangkok prepare your taxes for you.  He/she would certainly have to be willing to come with you to your local RD office (on your dime of course)  if you were called in for some reason.

 

And I certainly don't want to try to explain a double tax treaty to the RD staff here or have them severely misinterpret it.  

 

These are some very dark clouds on the horizon it seems.. especially for some unfortunate victims (me included).

There is nothing to restrict you from hiring any accountant from preparing  your return. But indeed expensive if you need them to come with you to RD  in your province. 

 

Where I live, at least, there is an RD office for my district   and then a Provincial office. The district level doesn't seem to have any decision making role, just receive tax returns/help people complete them  and then forward to the Provincial RD. They (district RD) are pleasant but beyond familiarity with the tax forms don'f seem to know much. Provincial RD office is the one that scrutinizes/questions. 

 

And for sure  mine will not have a clue re DTAs or anything else foreigner specific beyond work permits. Took me 2 full days to convince them there is any such thing as retired foreigners living in Thailand, and I'm not sure even then that I succeeded as opposed to they just got tired arguing with me. I suspect many upcountry RDs will be similar. 

[MeePeeMai]

Just wait until they get the bright idea to tax our "unrealized" capital gains on top of our worldwide income.  There is a growing push now in the USA (thanks to Biden and Yellen) to do just that.  Other countries will soon be trying to do "same same".  Monkey see, monkey do... so it seems.

[daveAustin]

26 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

These are some very dark clouds on the horizon it seems.. especially for some unfortunate victims (me included).

 

It sucks. While the bigwig with their ridiculous income and tax dodging needs to be collared, all this will likely achieve is to just ensnare and complicate the life of the average, law-abiding joe that has already paid their just dues and just wants to live an easier life in peace. Over the last 70 years or so, post-2020 is the absolute worst time to be alive imo. Everything has become more complicated, expensive and just downright sh.itty, and the Thai government seems to be pushing through too much too quickly without any thought, rather like an erratic child on meth.

[MeePeeMai]

Just now, Sheryl said:

There is nothing to restrict you from hiring any accountant from preparing  your return. But indeed expensive if you need them to come with you to RD  in your province. 

 

Where I live, at least, there is an RD office for my district   and then a Provincial office. The district level doesn't seem to have any decision making role, just receive tax returns/help people complete them  and then forward to the Provincial RD. They (district RD) are pleasant but beyond familiarity with the tax forms don'f seem to know much. Provincial RD office is the one that scrutinizes/questions. 

 

And for sure  mine will not have a clue re DTAs or anything else foreigner specific beyond work permits. Took me 2 full days to convince them there is any such thing as retired foreigners living in Thailand, and I'm not sure even then that I succeeded as opposed to they just got tired arguing with me. I suspect many upcountry RDs will be similar. 

 

I have gone over this in my head over and over (my own personal tax scenario) and I just can't convince myself that it will all work out and result in a fair and relatively easy thing to accomplish.

 

The way I see it these are my choices.... buckle up, be honest and roll the dice (hoping for the best outcome/experience), play the ignorance card and hope they don't/won't/can't enforce it, leave every year after 179 days, or hope that there will be agents here that can "assist" me and make things easier to accomplish.

 

I don't mind paying a fair amount of tax but I don't want to be fleeced or over-taxed by way of ignorance (regarding the double tax treaty) or having the burden(s) of proof be too onerous or difficult to obtain every year.  

 

 

[MeePeeMai]

9 minutes ago, daveAustin said:

average, law-abiding joe that has already paid their just dues and just wants to live an easier life in peace.

 

Exactly, the main reason I chose Thailand to retire in was I just wanted to retire in peace and be left alone. 

[AreYouGerman]

16 hours ago, Merrill said:

Taxation is a criminal offence in itself, just that we all are so used to it. A bit like the dog that has been chained up and you shorten the chain every day, the dog does not notice. If we all said enough is enough it would all go away.

 

 

Bro, you live in a Democracy, you just need to vote harder to make things happen, right!

 

 

 

 

 

[redwood1]

18 minutes ago, daveAustin said:

 

It sucks. While the bigwig with their ridiculous income and tax dodging needs to be collared, all this will likely achieve is to just ensnare and complicate the life of the average, law-abiding joe that has already paid their just dues and just wants to live an easier life in peace. Over the last 70 years or so, post-2020 is the absolute worst time to be alive imo. Everything has become more complicated, expensive and just downright sh.itty, and the Thai government seems to be pushing through too much too quickly without any thought, rather like an erratic child on meth.

 

It looks to me like they have pretty much thrown in the towel on getting Thais to pay any taxes..Rich or Poor....

 

But hey maybe we can get a few bread crumbs from retired expats with pensions, who have a fixed incomes and a limited budget every month...

 

Turning expats retirement years into a living tax hell. sounds like their plan....

[John Drake]

22 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

Exactly, the main reason I chose Thailand to retire in was I just wanted to retire in peace and be left alone. 

 

Pretty much the situation until the last election.

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

Only up to a maximum of $3000 USD per year, although any excess losses over and above the $3000 in one year can be carried forward to the next year(s).

 

That is incorrect.

 

You may offset UNLIMITED capital losses against capital gains in any given year.  If there are MORE losses than gains, then up to $3000 may be used to offset other income.  The excess over $3K can be carried forward.

 

If I sell my shares of Apple and make $20,000, then sell my shares of Peloton and lose $20,000, these offset on Schedule D and I have $0 income from these transactions, and owe $0 tax.

 

Thailand only sees, and taxes, the sale of Apple shares, taking 20-35% of $20,000.

[MeePeeMai]

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

That is incorrect.

 

You may offset UNLIMITED capital losses against capital gains in any given year.  If there are MORE losses than gains, then up to $3000 may be used to offset other income.  The excess over $3K can be carried forward.

 

If I sell my shares of Apple and make $20,000, then sell my shares of Peloton and lose $20,000, these offset on Schedule D and I have $0 income from these transactions, and owe $0 tax.

 

Thailand only sees, and taxes, the sale of Apple shares, taking 20-35% of $20,000.

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I stand corrected.

[NoDisplayName]

4 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I stand corrected.

 

I manage my investments to stay just under the taxable limit, following the IRS rules.  I am retired with no salary.  I collect about $15K in bond interest and dividends, and take about $45K in capital gains from stock sales, sometimes dumping some under-performers and using losses to reduce gains.

 

Using the 0% capital gains rules, I can sell and then repurchase stocks to reset the cost basis, taking the profits now (tax-free) and reducing the future gains.

 

That activity with a $0 US tax bill will result in about $60K assessable income and a $10,000 tax bill from Thailand.

[MeePeeMai]

17 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

I manage my investments to stay just under the taxable limit, following the IRS rules.  I am retired with no salary.  I collect about $15K in bond interest and dividends, and take about $45K in capital gains from stock sales, sometimes dumping some under-performers and using losses to reduce gains.

 

Using the 0% capital gains rules, I can sell and then repurchase stocks to reset the cost basis, taking the profits now (tax-free) and reducing the future gains.

 

That activity with a $0 US tax bill will result in about $60K assessable income and a $10,000 tax bill from Thailand.

 

Good strategy (for US taxes)!  Just remember to adhere to the 30/60 day "wash sale" rule (I got caught out on that one a few times). 

Edited June 8 by MeePeeMai

[MeePeeMai]

15 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

a $10,000 tax bill from Thailand.

 

a $10k USD or 365,000 baht Thai tax bill?  Yikes!

 

That's going to hurt.

[NoDisplayName]

1 minute ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

a $10k USD or 365,000 baht Thai tax bill?  Yikes!

 

That's going to hurt.

 

Every.  Single.  Year.

 

Already discussed it with wifey.  If this goes through we 'bug out'.

 

Sell the Isaan house, buy a condo in Rayong and a condo in Siem Reap.  We can spend four months in each, a month in Vietnam or Laos and a month in China.  Or any combination thereof. 

 

 

[MeePeeMai]

5 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Every.  Single.  Year.

 

Already discussed it with wifey.  If this goes through we 'bug out'.

 

Sell the Isaan house, buy a condo in Rayong and a condo in Siem Reap.  We can spend four months in each, a month in Vietnam or Laos and a month in China.  Or any combination thereof. 

 

 

 

Sounds like a solid plan!  I certainly wouldn't pay 10k a year (extra) just for the privilege of staying here more than 180 days a year.  

 

179 days a year = Free (other than annual extension fee)

180 days (I wouldn't chance it)

181 days a year = 10k USD 

 

I'm going to do the same thing because my Thai tax bill would be much higher than yours I'm afraid.  

 

 

 

 

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

Just wait until they get the bright idea to tax our "unrealized" capital gains on top of our worldwide income.  There is a growing push now in the USA (thanks to Biden and Yellen)

MAGA BS.

[thaimacky]

On 6/6/2024 at 9:35 AM, Mugi said:

So when you transfer money from abroad to buy a Condo you have a 35% tax problem?😉

...or you already bought a condo before 2024 (or a car) that you are still paying off. Do you have to pay taxes on the monthly installments starting this year?

[Robaht]

18 minutes ago, JimGant said:

MAGA BS.

MAGA is against taxing the unrealized gains and also, Biden and Yellen are not MAGA lol

[Robaht]

So is the general feeling that for 2024 an expat over 180 days will need to file a return based on the amount of money brought into the country (and I still find it highly improbable that the amount would include credit card purchases or even ATM withdrawals) and that “if ever” it looks like a type of global income tax wouldn’t happen until 2025 or later? I mean TIT but realistically for them to figure out how to implement it and what docs are required from every country, much less that the filing date end of March is even before the filing date in countries like USA. I guess I am planning to ride out this year, get my Non-O extension and then prepare for the inevitable 179 days in country. Such a hassle.

[Eudaimonia]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

Already discussed it with wifey.  If this goes through we 'bug out'.

 

Sell the Isaan house, buy a condo in Rayong and a condo in Siem Reap.  We can spend four months in each, a month in Vietnam or Laos and a month in China.  Or any combination thereof.

 

This could be an interesting option for Americans who are in any case sheltered by the IRS to some extent.

 

Being a tax resident nowhere used to be a popular theory, but times they are a-changin'. Financial institutions are increasingly reluctant to accommodate customers without a precise, proveable address and TIN from somewhere.

 

I would hate to wake up and learn that the country of my citizenship (or someone else) has decided to be the 'last resort' provider of tax residency for me for the previous ten years because I did not have one anywhere else.

 

Luckily, many jurisdictions also offer an actual tax residency on favorable terms.

[NoDisplayName]

14 minutes ago, Eudaimonia said:

 

This could be an interesting option for Americans who are in any case sheltered by the IRS to some extent.

 

Being a tax resident nowhere used to be a popular theory, but times they are a-changin'. Financial institutions are increasingly reluctant to accommodate customers without a precise, proveable address and TIN from somewhere.

 

I would hate to wake up and learn that the country of my citizenship (or someone else) has decided to be the 'last resort' provider of tax residency for me for the previous ten years because I did not have one anywhere else.

 

Luckily, many jurisdictions also offer an actual tax residency on favorable terms.

 

Other tax residency doesn't matter to the IRS.  Americans are taxed on worldwide income regardless of physical location.  Only difference comes with foreign earned income.  With no foreign salary, we pay the same tax no matter where we sleep at night.

 

I list my Thai address on my 1040 for mailing purposes, could just as easily use a US address.  I'll always have a tax home in Uncle Sam's gentle arms.

 

I object to paying out to another government on already taxed income, with.............nothing................in return.

[redwood1]

23 minutes ago, Robaht said:

So is the general feeling that for 2024 an expat over 180 days will need to file a return based on the amount of money brought into the country (and I still find it highly improbable that the amount would include credit card purchases or even ATM withdrawals) and that “if ever” it looks like a type of global income tax wouldn’t happen until 2025 or later? I mean TIT but realistically for them to figure out how to implement it and what docs are required from every country, much less that the filing date end of March is even before the filing date in countries like USA. I guess I am planning to ride out this year, get my Non-O extension and then prepare for the inevitable 179 days in country. Such a hassle.

 

I am of the opinion by the time they get this highly complex tax mess figured out it could be decades into the future....So I am just not going to worry about it.....

This tax nonsense is trying to steal peoples retirement years...Its simply Evil...

[beammeup]

I worked offshore for 30 years more that 180 days a year (Intentional waters). I was a tax resident of nowhere. Never had a problem.

[MeePeeMai]

17 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

I am of the opinion by the time they get this highly complex tax mess figured out it could be decades into the future....So I am just not going to worry about it.....

This tax nonsense is trying to steal peoples retirement years...Its simply Evil...

 

The problem is that they usually implement their plan first (without any planning), then constantly tweak it.... or just wing it as they go. 

 

No clear guidance, no consistency, no forethought, all the while paving the way for confusion and "luck of the draw" so to speak with regards to your own personal experience while navigating the maze blindfolded and at the mercy of the uniformed official you happen to be dealing with.

 

 

[MeePeeMai]

38 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

I'll always have a tax home in Uncle Sam's gentle arms.

 

 

That's a fact 5555

[AreYouGerman]

34 minutes ago, beammeup said:

I worked offshore for 30 years more that 180 days a year (Intentional waters). I was a tax resident of nowhere. Never had a problem.

 

Me too, not that long though, but the issues are mounting. Every business who has reasons to ask for the ultimate beneficial owner is starting to ask for a TIN or doesn't want to deal with residencies outside the EU.

 

The writing is on the wall, they don't want people enjoying their freedom as Permanent Tourist. But before I'd start giving Thailand 1 baht, I would demand a real visa and not this temporary extension humiliation. But most will just bow down and take it no matter what because 'their' Thailand is all what is left.