Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[thaimacky]

7 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

Sounds like a solid plan!  I certainly wouldn't pay 10k a year (extra) just for the privilege of staying here more than 180 days a year.  

 

179 days a year = Free (other than annual extension fee)

180 days (I wouldn't chance it)

181 days a year = 10k USD 

 

I'm going to do the same thing because my Thai tax bill would be much higher than yours I'm afraid.  

 

 

 

 

...in the same boat: my bill would be higher too and I would def. be leaving too (after 20y in Thailand)...

[Gknrd]

This just fell into the Thai's lap.  Create an easy expat experience. Get 100's of thousand expats calling Thailand home. Then fleece them.

 

 

[Gknrd]

2 minutes ago, Gknrd said:

This just fell into the Thai's lap.  Create an easy expat experience. Get 100's of thousand expats calling Thailand home. Then fleece them.  Everyone saw this coming except the expats..

 

 

 

[MeePeeMai]

4 hours ago, thaimacky said:

...in the same boat: my bill would be higher too and I would def. be leaving too (after 20y in Thailand)...

 

I've only lived here for 7 years but now I feel so tarnished that I don't even want to come back and spend 179 days a year here anymore (on principle). 

 

Why should I come here (even as a tourist) and spend my money after being treated like this?  I'm leaving on June 16th and I will be back next year only to sell my pickup, my motorbikes and everything else I bought here (and then I'll be leaving for good).  

 

I'm just glad I didn't sell everything I own in the US (house, truck, motorcycle etc.).  This is exactly the reason I didn't cut ties and sell everything in the in my home country because I knew something like this could happen here someday.

 

To say that I am very disappointed would be a huge understatement but I'll just take it on the chin and move on.

 

[MeePeeMai]

4 hours ago, Gknrd said:

This just fell into the Thai's lap.  Create an easy expat experience. Get 100's of thousand expats calling Thailand home. Then fleece them.

 

 

 

Feels like a gut punch... out of the blue!

[CharlesHolzhauer]

14 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

I don't mind paying a fair amount of tax but I don't want to be fleeced or over-taxed by way of ignorance (regarding the double tax treaty) or having the burden(s) of proof be too onerous or difficult to obtain every year.

What evidence is there currently for getting over-taxed?

[CharlesHolzhauer]

36 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

To say that I am very disappointed would be a huge understatement but I'll just take it on the chin and move on.

 

33 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

Feels like a gut punch... out of the blue!

Don't you think for being disappointed and feeling gut-punched soon?

[MeePeeMai]

1 minute ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

What evidence is there currently for getting over-taxed?

 

For example,

 

The 35% Thai tax which would be due on my long term capital gains (vs the 15% I already pay to the IRS) is unacceptable to me (overtaxed).

 

I did a ROTH conversion in 2024 in the amount of $79,000 which will be taxed by uncle Sam in the 22% tax bracket... that would mean that I would have to pay another 13% in Thai tax (if the tax treaty was applied or 35% if it was not properly applied).  

 

I have rental income (on my house) of $48,600 per year in the USA which would be taxed at 35% here (unacceptable).

 

I don't even pay anywhere close to 35% tax on my short term gains in the USA now but that income would be taxed at 35% here (or I would have to pay the difference if the tax treaty was applied).

 

Overtaxed here or not?  

 

 

 

 

[beammeup]

They could flip flop about this. Wouldn't surprise me. If they do follow through with it then I would think they will make whole sale changes to the tax system. 35% on capital gains is unacceptable.

[lordgrinz]

11 minutes ago, beammeup said:

They could flip flop about this. Wouldn't surprise me. If they do follow through with it then I would think they will make whole sale changes to the tax system. 35% on capital gains is unacceptable.

 

The damage has already been done, anyone with any common sense is going take this as a serious threat.

[MeePeeMai]

I will also need to sell my BTC and BTC mining stocks sometime this year (or next) depending on the market cycle...  well, there goes another 35% (if I stay here any longer).

 

The signs are pretty clear to me that I would be foolish to stay here and live on "hopium".  

 

If the only income I had was my government pension (which can be taxed ONLY by the USA under the current tax treaty), then I wouldn't have any tax problems here and I could just continue to live here but that's not the situation I'm in.

 

[CharlesHolzhauer]

26 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

For example,

 

The 35% Thai tax which would be due on my long term capital gains (vs the 15% I already pay to the IRS) is unacceptable to me (overtaxed).

 

I did a ROTH conversion in 2024 in the amount of $79,000 which will be taxed by uncle Sam in the 22% tax bracket... that would mean that I would have to pay another 13% in Thai tax (if the tax treaty was applied or 35% if it was not properly applied).  

 

I have rental income (on my house) of $48,600 per year in the USA which would be taxed at 35% here (unacceptable).

 

I don't even pay anywhere close to 35% tax on my short term gains in the USA now but that income would be taxed at 35% here (or I would have to pay the difference if the tax treaty was applied).

 

Overtaxed here or not?  

 

 

 

 

Isn't your scenario a presumption of what may happen?

I am truly not aware that this particular tax law has been presented to the legislators and subsequently passed.

[atpeace]

On 6/6/2024 at 9:42 PM, NorthernRyland said:

He's good on these topics because he questions the premise and authority unlike some of the browbeaten sheep posting here that believe they don't have a right to their own money.

You seem extremely hostile and frustrated.  Can you share how this new tax is going to impact you.

 

  I'm from the USA with ample saving to live here until I die.  I have interest income as well as investment income ( not much and many years I have a loss 😞 ).  I'll get social security in the near future as well as private pension funds and some of that money will be sent to Thailand to fund my retirement.

 

My anxiety level is very low in regards to owing Thai taxes.  I might have to file but that isn't even a definite.  People are screaming but without having any real basis to be screaming.  It seems they are basing their fears on "what ifs" which is pointless and will lead to nothing productive.  

 

As for categorizing people as broken down sheep - maybe a look in the mirror.  You seem to losing your shttt over a nothing burger.  You are obviously red hot mad but why?  Maybe I'm missing some facts????  Hopefully that wasn't insulting...

[Dogmatix]

16 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

For example,

 

The 35% Thai tax which would be due on my long term capital gains (vs the 15% I already pay to the IRS) is unacceptable to me (overtaxed).

 

I did a ROTH conversion in 2024 in the amount of $79,000 which will be taxed by uncle Sam in the 22% tax bracket... that would mean that I would have to pay another 13% in Thai tax (if the tax treaty was applied or 35% if it was not properly applied).  

 

I have rental income (on my house) of $48,600 per year in the USA which would be taxed at 35% here (unacceptable).

 

I don't even pay anywhere close to 35% tax on my short term gains in the USA now but that income would be taxed at 35% here (or I would have to pay the difference if the tax treaty was applied).

 

Overtaxed here or not?  

 

 

 

 

I have rental income from the UK which I rarely remit the Thailand and pay tax in the UK. They have a system and a form for non-resident landlords to file. You do accounts deducting expenses including agents fees, repairs and renovations and pay tax on your profit. Some years I have had to do a big renovation and declared a loss. No problem with UK taxman who has never audited or even asked for receipts or documentation in decades.

 

How will this work under Thai global tax? When I do my Thai tax return, I will have file for tax in the UK for 1 Jan to 5 April of the Thai tax year I am filing for but not for 6 April to 31 Dec. So I clalm tax credit for 1Jan to 5 April and pay full Thai tax for the rest of the year. But I will also have paid advance UK tax based on an estimate which can later be adjusted, Do they ignore that? Next year do I then claim a tax credit for what I paid in Thailand? Does Thailand allow deduction for repairs and renovation? If so, what documentation would they ask for?

 

 Sounds like a horror no incoming our way without looking at how they will treat other overseas investments. But one thing we know is that they don’t allow deductions for losses. So those already paying tax on capital gains less capital losses will likely have more to pay in Thailand. 
 

None of this has been thought through in this pkan to just shake the foreign money tree until it dies. Not saying they have no right to tax bit it would be better if they spent a couple of years studying the implications and then came up with detailed plans which would probably mean a complete overhaul rather than just applying Thai tax rules to overseas income and not caring about the complexities or unintended consequences.

 

[lordgrinz]

1 minute ago, atpeace said:

😞it seems they are basing their fears on "what ifs" which is pointless and will lead to nothing productive.

 

They are basing their fears on a real threat made by the Director General of the Revenue Department. Ignoring that would be insane.

[CharlesHolzhauer]

Just now, lordgrinz said:

Ignoring that would be insane.

Concerning - yes. If the law is passed then ignoring it would be unwise.

[MeePeeMai]

Just now, CharlesHolzhauer said:

Isn't your scenario a presumption of what may happen?

I am truly not aware that this particular tax law has been presented to the legislators and subsequently passed.

 

It might be, I may be jumping the gun but I'm not going to roll the dice and get caught up in a dragnet of sudden or retroactive worldwide tax implementation here.

 

Just the fact that they are even talking about it and showing their cards to us is a red flag and I don't want to call their bluff on this one.  The last change on remittances was surprising but actually not too bad, but this latest bombshell is more than I care to deal with or worry about.  It's just the straw that will break the camels back so to speak for me.

 

[atpeace]

9 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

They are basing their fears on a real threat made by the Director General of the Revenue Department. Ignoring that would be insane.

a threat? OK, that is what i thought.  Facts?  I'm really not trying to be confrontational.  I'm just trying to make my own deductions.

[CharlesHolzhauer]

1 minute ago, MeePeeMai said:

The last change on remittances was surprising but actually not too bad, but this latest bombshell is more than I care to deal with or worry about.  It's just the straw that will break the camels back so to speak for me.

The change in remittances did not require legislation. However, the latest 'bombshell' will need to be legislated and may take considerable time to implement.

[Celsius]

18 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

have rental income from the UK which I rarely remit the Thailand and pay tax in the UK. They have a system and a form for non-resident landlords to file. You do accounts deducting expenses including agents fees, repairs and renovations and pay tax on your profit. Some years I have had to do a big renovation and declared a loss. No problem with UK taxman who has never audited or even asked for receipts or documentation in decades.

 

exactly.

 

I have the same non resident set up in Canada. there is 0 chance I will be filing any tax return here in Thailand as I am already getting taxed 25% on my non resident rental in Canada.

[atpeace]

6 minutes ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

It might be, I may be jumping the gun but I'm not going to roll the dice and get caught up in a dragnet of sudden or retroactive worldwide tax implementation here.

 

Just the fact that they are even talking about it and showing their cards to us is a red flag and I don't want to call their bluff on this one.  The last change on remittances was surprising but actually not too bad, but this latest bombshell is more than I care to deal with or worry about.  It's just the straw that will break the camels back so to speak for me.

 

I think the world is grappling with a means of taxing individuals that aren't paying taxes and residing in countries where it is easier not to pay taxes. I seriously doubt countries are will impose a tax on money that has already been taxed "wherever".  There will be exceptions but basing fears on big what ifs seems pointless and stressful. 

 

I'm just looking for some facts behind this fear and don't want to be blindsided. 

 

 

[lordgrinz]

1 minute ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

The change in remittances did not require legislation. However, the latest 'bombshell' will need to be legislated and may take considerable time to implement.

 

But the damage has already been done, and living under constant threats isn't conducive to a healthy future here. They seem to be painting a target on expats, and some us don't like the pressure, we are getting the hint.....we are unwelcomed.

[MeePeeMai]

1 minute ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

The change in remittances did not require legislation. However, the latest 'bombshell' will need to be legislated and may take considerable time to implement.

 

I have read that the current government is not fond of waiting until things get legislated and have work arounds in place.  Whether this is true or not I don't know but things don't look good to me right now.  If it gets legislated or implemented and they go after 2024 worldwide income then it will be too late to escape the trap if I stay here more than 179 days this year.

[atpeace]

1 minute ago, Celsius said:

 

exactly.

 

I have the same non resident set up in Canada. there is 0 chance I will be filing any tax return here in Thailand as I am already getting taxed 25% on my non resident rental in Canada.

You think Thailand shouldn't have the "right" to require that you file a tax return as a tax resident.  Seems like a hassle but very reasonable IMO.  I'm also confident I will not pay any taxes here for money that was taxed prior in my country nor taxes from income in the future that are taxed outside of Thailand.  Just looking for facts...

[Presnock]

24 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

I have rental income from the UK which I rarely remit the Thailand and pay tax in the UK. They have a system and a form for non-resident landlords to file. You do accounts deducting expenses including agents fees, repairs and renovations and pay tax on your profit. Some years I have had to do a big renovation and declared a loss. No problem with UK taxman who has never audited or even asked for receipts or documentation in decades.

 

How will this work under Thai global tax? When I do my Thai tax return, I will have file for tax in the UK for 1 Jan to 5 April of the Thai tax year I am filing for but not for 6 April to 31 Dec. So I clalm tax credit for 1Jan to 5 April and pay full Thai tax for the rest of the year. But I will also have paid advance UK tax based on an estimate which can later be adjusted, Do they ignore that? Next year do I then claim a tax credit for what I paid in Thailand? Does Thailand allow deduction for repairs and renovation? If so, what documentation would they ask for?

 

 Sounds like a horror no incoming our way without looking at how they will treat other overseas investments. But one thing we know is that they don’t allow deductions for losses. So those already paying tax on capital gains less capital losses will likely have more to pay in Thailand. 
 

None of this has been thought through in this pkan to just shake the foreign money tree until it dies. Not saying they have no right to tax bit it would be better if they spent a couple of years studying the implications and then came up with detailed plans which would probably mean a complete overhaul rather than just applying Thai tax rules to overseas income and not caring about the complexities or unintended consequences.

 

well, I can fully understand the problems they are having coming up with whatever tax changes that they think could help them and we see on this forum than the majority of folks don'tr even understand all the tax problems from their own country - now the locals if they cared at all would have some "experts" advising them but we know that will never happen.  The bossman has directed them to find every baht possible immiediately so who is stuck out on a limb so to speak  - the expats who have no options, either stay and pay or go.  Hopefully most will not be affected with the final program on tax changes.  

[Celsius]

1 minute ago, atpeace said:

You think Thailand shouldn't have the "right" to require that you file a tax return as a tax resident. 

 

That's right. They should not because they treat me as a tourist, not as a resident.

 

Some tax cheerleaders don't seem to understand this fact.

[Dogmatix]

26 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

I have rental income from the UK which I rarely remit the Thailand and pay tax in the UK. They have a system and a form for non-resident landlords to file. You do accounts deducting expenses including agents fees, repairs and renovations and pay tax on your profit. Some years I have had to do a big renovation and declared a loss. No problem with UK taxman who has never audited or even asked for receipts or documentation in decades.

 

How will this work under Thai global tax? When I do my Thai tax return, I will have file for tax in the UK for 1 Jan to 5 April of the Thai tax year I am filing for but not for 6 April to 31 Dec. So I clalm tax credit for 1Jan to 5 April and pay full Thai tax for the rest of the year. But I will also have paid advance UK tax based on an estimate which can later be adjusted, Do they ignore that? Next year do I then claim a tax credit for what I paid in Thailand? Does Thailand allow deduction for repairs and renovation? If so, what documentation would they ask for?

 

 Sounds like a horror no incoming our way without looking at how they will treat other overseas investments. But one thing we know is that they don’t allow deductions for losses. So those already paying tax on capital gains less capital losses will likely have more to pay in Thailand. 
 

None of this has been thought through in this pkan to just shake the foreign money tree until it dies. Not saying they have no right to tax bit it would be better if they spent a couple of years studying the implications and then came up with detailed plans which would probably mean a complete overhaul rather than just applying Thai tax rules to overseas income and not caring about the complexities or unintended consequences.

 

I think this answers some of my questions on rental income https://www.hlbthai.com/thai-rental-properties-and-personal-income-tax-2/

 

Thailand allows a flat 30% deduction on rental income. If you want to claim more for extensive renovations, tough luck. You will have to submit audited accounts and they might not accept it anyway and unlikely to let you carry losses forward, as in the UK. The out of synch tax years and tax credits under DTA still a problem.

 

Also a big problem that individuals as landlords have to submit a half year PMD 94 tax return with estimate FY income as well as PND 90 and pay tax twice yearly.

[CharlesHolzhauer]

1 minute ago, lordgrinz said:

 

But the damage has already been done, and living under constant threats isn't conducive to a healthy future here. They seem to be painting a target on expats, and some us don't like the pressure, we are getting the hint.....we are unwelcomed.

The damage is being caused by very nervous people. I am not belittling the impact that the new law, if legislated and implemented, will have. It could indeed create an uproar. However, feeling threatened and unwelcome in Thailand seems a bit over the top, in my opinion.

[Gknrd]

1 hour ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

Feels like a gut punch... out of the blue!

Got to wonder what is next at this point..

[MeePeeMai]

5 minutes ago, atpeace said:

I think the world is grappling with a means of taxing individuals that aren't paying taxes and residing in countries where it is easier not to pay taxes. I seriously doubt countries are will impose a tax on money that has already been taxed "wherever".  There will be exceptions but basing fears on big what ifs seems pointless and stressful. 

 

I'm just looking for some facts behind this fear and don't want to be blindsided. 

 

 

 

I know they are focusing on taxing individuals who don't currently pay taxes but to think that the Thai authorities will let you slide or give you a pass just because you pay taxes in another country (US for example), or leave those of us on a Non-O or Non O-A is probably foolish.

 

I think if they bother to see this through then they will go after every baht they can get.

 

Even if they were to adhere (strictly) to the double tax treaty, in my own case (the USA) then I will get screwed.

 

I too don't want to be blindsided.  Depending on which country one has his citizenship, it might be wise to start reading and understanding your countries tax treaty with Thailand (if there is one in place).