Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[jerrymahoney]

3 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

I'd just bring my family back home to rural USA where I loved my life, where its safe, clean, and beautiful. I've seen nothing in Thailand that would make me want to live here more than anywhere else, my list of negatives for Thailand is a mile long.

I am not wealthy but I don't know that I'd want to live in any place I considered a cesspool

[lordgrinz]

2 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

I am not wealthy but I don't know that I'd want to live in any place I considered a cesspool

 

Neither would I, but I have a wife and daughter, until my wife comes around and gives up on this 'cesspool"......then I am stuck.

[jerrymahoney]

4 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Neither would I, but I have a wife and daughter, until my wife comes around and gives up on this 'cesspool"......then I am stuck.

Sorry to hear that -- you should have stuck with your wife and daughter in the Berkshires.

[spidermike007]

This is likely due to military intervention and influence on the kangaroo courts. Thailand is not a democracy. It is still an army ruled autocracy. 

[jerrymahoney]

5 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

This is likely due to military intervention and influence on the kangaroo courts. Thailand is not a democracy. It is still an army ruled autocracy. 

Maybe so but you're still here living in what has been described above as a cesspool.

[spidermike007]

33 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Maybe so but you're still here living in what has been described above as a cesspool.

Nah. The politics are toxic. That is a cesspool. Same applies to the US and all of Europe.

 

Life here is very good for most of us. I enjoy a very high quality of life. I enjoy every day here. I visit the US often. The quality of life for most, is very low. Only the top 2% and people with properties which are paid off, who also have very good incomes, are doing well. There is little joy in America now. 

[jerrymahoney]

7 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Life here is very good for most of us. I enjoy a very high quality of life. I enjoy every day here. 

Thanks, Mr. Spider. Sometimes you hear musicians say: I didn't leave music -- music left me.

 

For me the US was just no longer a fit. Not on the macro basis; just for me. And I have no desire to go back.

[spidermike007]

6 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Thanks, Mr. Spider. Sometimes you hear musicians say: I didn't leave music -- music left me.

 

For me the US was just no longer a fit. Not on the macro basis; just for me. And I have no desire to go back.

I have work and family that takes me back 2 to 4 times a year, and I travel around the country so I can see and feel what's going on, and it is not pretty. America is a pale shadow of its former self and there's a lot of people who are very bitter and disenfranchised. America is just not much fun and people seem relatively joyless. 

 

And for my single friends the dating scene has become an absolute horror show. By comparison, I have single friends who do really well here. And they are not rich, nor do they have great looks. They do have personality, and they do have a sense of humor, which helps a lot. 

[Presnock]

3 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

I have work and family that takes me back 2 to 4 times a year, and I travel around the country so I can see and feel what's going on, and it is not pretty. America is a pale shadow of its former self and there's a lot of people who are very bitter and disenfranchised. America is just not much fun and people seem relatively joyless. 

 

And for my single friends the dating scene has become an absolute horror show. By comparison, I have single friends who do really well here. And they are not rich, nor do they have great looks. They do have personality, and they do have a sense of humor, which helps a lot. 

I have family relatives and friends in different parts of the US everything you wrote is absolutely TRUE from their descriptions of life there today.  Everyone is totally disenfranchised from the political scene with three top candidates, still inflated costs since the inflation increases after the pandemic many jobs actually lost, lots of closures with predictions of more to come.  NOBODY is happy anymore, just existing and barely at that.  Crime on the increase in many places but local govts just change the law so that they don't have to lock anyone up.  Illegals everywhere getting freebies while citizens suffer.  Not a pretty picture so while I could financially survive with no problem if I went home, why would I?  I also love the PI and believe I could survive again in VN, just have to bone up on the language a tad.  I used to speak Tagalog too but not isn't even necessary at all there in the PI.  Lots of islands to chose from and don't have to worry too much about the burning season.  Would miss the Thai food though because I would prefer remote area versus city life.  Guess wife would have to put her chef hat on again.  But, until the changes here, current tax plan, next tax plan being discussed, and BRICS effects are in my thoughts but not worried yet.  I do hope all got out that had to get out and that the rest of us all come through unscathed.  take cafe be safe

 

[jerrymahoney]

12 minutes ago, Presnock said:

take cafe be safe

 

Yes every morning starting about 4 AM (sorry couldn't resist)

 

Also I will apologize a bit as I only came on here to give a re-cap of the US Ambassador's remarks to a small group of US citizens yesterday in UbonR.  Not to go into these quality-of-life issues.

[Presnock]

2 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

Yes every morning starting about 4 AM (sorry couldn't resist)

 

Also I will apologize a bit as I only came on here to give a re-cap of the US Ambassador's remarks to a small group of US citizens yesterday in UbonR.  Not to go into these quality-of-life issues.

I am an old fart and have very not-nimble fingers any more but according to Dr. Li the famous writing Harvard health expert, COFFEE is one of the most essential drinks for health!  so a cafe at 4 is great!  BTW any good stories about what the ambo said is his take on this TRD scheme?

[jerrymahoney]

20 minutes ago, Presnock said:

I am an old fart and have very not-nimble fingers any more but according to Dr. Li the famous writing Harvard health expert, COFFEE is one of the most essential drinks for health!  so a cafe at 4 is great!  BTW any good stories about what the ambo said is his take on this TRD scheme?

First let me say that although I described the Ambassador as a pleasant gent above, I do not mean the to suggest he cannot be tough when required.

 

But really he said that they are deeply involved in the tax on remittance issue also as to DTA's but that he will respond with definitive answers only when he has them. He also remarked that the US Embassy in Bangkok is the largest US embassy in the world with about 7000 staff.

 

To add from the Embassy website (not his remarks)

 

The Economic Section monitors economic, financial, energy, trade, investment, and labor trends in Thailand. The team presents U.S. views on bilateral and multilateral economic issues to the Thai government and the public. 

[Presnock]

Just now, jerrymahoney said:

First let me say that although I described the Ambassador as a pleasant gent above, I do not mean the to suggest he cannot be tough when required.

 

But really he said that they are deeply involved in the tax on remittance issue also as to DTA's but that he will respond with definitive answers only when he has them. He also remarked that the US Embassy in Bangkok is the largest US embassy in the world with about 7000 staff.

Yeah, I worked there for 4 tours - thus decided on Thailand for retirement 20 years ago and haven't regretted it at all.  I still love it and do not have any anticipation of being affected by the either of these tax proposals that have come about but until I see the final print after the Gazette, I am relaxed.  But I do wonder about life under a BRICS leadership.  Does anyone have any clues if it would affect expats at all?  I don't know anyone who was in one of those countries first and then if life changed. Good luck.

[Tonyfarang]

19 hours ago, Tonyfarang said:

At present, the most pressing issue is yet another headache. I'm personally very weary from the constant stream of daily surprises and challenges. As a result, I am already selling my condos and prepare for an immediate move once this announcement is made official.

No, this change can't be implemented right now, as many of us are already here and haven't agreed to such a scenario. It's likely they will enforce it starting in 2025, leaving it up to each individual to decide whether to stay or move on.

Thailand has the potential to become an extraordinary destination for wealthy netizens, digital nomads, much like Costa Rica which is also in OECD but keeps the territorial taxation scheme, or even adopt programs like those in Malaysia (which announced very recently by the way); I believe that Phills too.

However, at this specific juncture, many people, including myself, are halting all plans and considering moving elsewhere, instead of bringing money into Thailand.

I was on the verge of buying a house and a new car. All those plans are now abandoned. I'm not proceeding with anything further. I'll prepare, wait, and when something announced I'm out.

It's truly heartbreaking that such a wonderful country, one that we deeply love, some of us talking the language (including myself), respect, and invest in, is making people who bring significant capital into the country consider leaving. Instead of finding ways to engage and attract more investment, we're being pushed away.

 

 

And to add here, I am adding this link of the recent "mistake" of Norway in an attempt to raise their wealth tax; the super wealthy left "at world record" : The Guardian - Super-rich abandoning Norway at record rate as wealth tax rises slightly.

I am also sharing this graph, which says a lot, showing wealthy residents relocating fast to other countries where they are benefiting.

It's a time when many countries are trying to attract wealthy residents, drawing in wealth and money. You see it everywhere: visas, programs, tax-free offers, etc., inviting people to join several countries. This is part of globalization—competition and challenges. Several countries offer residential visas, citizenship by investments, opportunities to buy land, permanent residencies, tax-free benefits, and more. It's the time when countries try to attract the right people and improve their economy.

It's an amazing time for Thailand to think cleverly and attract the people who respect the country, bring their wealth in, invest, and have significant things to offer.

We all love Thailand like nothing else, and that's why we are here. It is heartbreaking to consider leaving such a wonderful country that we deeply cherish and respect. It's so sad to even think about leaving. We hope for a solution that allows us to continue investing in and contributing to this beautiful country that we call home, hoping for the best.

 

[Incorrigible1]

1 hour ago, jerrymahoney said:

First let me say that although I described the Ambassador as a pleasant gent above, I do not mean the to suggest he cannot be tough when required.

 

But really he said that they are deeply involved in the tax on remittance issue also as to DTA's

Without going into details, my experience tells me that one of the topics for discussion is the US providing training and technical assistance to the RTD to help them implement their proposed tax changes.  The US will readily agree to help the RTD.   

[JimGant]

27 minutes ago, Presnock said:

  I still love it and do not have any anticipation of being affected by the either of these tax proposals that have come about but until I see the final print after the Gazette, I am relaxed. 

Reading many of your posts, I'm assuming you have a US govt pension, Social Security, and maybe some IRA drawdown. I'm in the same boat. And we're both over the $80k/pa to qualify for the LTR visa. And for me, and probably you, most of my income does not include capital gains. Thus, should the LTR tax exemption be cancelled, I'd still be in neutral taxation position, whereby, even now with Thai tax on my worldwide income, this is the same income I've been paying US income for years. And the US tax would now be reduced, dollar for dollar, by a Thai tax credit.

 

Yes, there are outlier US taxpayers out there. The folks with large amounts of capital gain income, which, should Thailand go worldwide taxation, would now lose the US tax discount for long term cap gains. And pay a substantial taxation penalty, what with Thailand taxing at full, not discounted, rates. But I seriously doubt we're talking too many folks here.

 

And then, the US folks, with poverty level income, that pay no US tax now. But, with Thai worldwide taxation, may now pay some (but not much tax) to Thailand. Oh well.

 

My point: Most US taxpayers, I'd even say 90%, would not have a new tax obligation with the worldwide tax proposal -- since new Thai taxes would be credits absorbed in your US taxes. Yes, the added irritant of having to now file a Thai return is there -- but, hey, probably not too difficult a path to take.

 

And, as an aside, a recent look at the Thai-Canada DTA shows that Canadians have an even better deal, as all their pensions -- govt, private, and IRA-like payouts -- are exclusively taxable by Canada. Maybe that's why we're not hearing a lot of complaints here from Canadians.....

 

Anyway, all the screaming and shouting here from all those folks abandoning ship -- because they may have a future tax bill (increase) -- may be amusing, should the screamers be Americans or Canadians who can't do the math (with apologies to the few cap gain outliers). For Old World types, who now find themselves in a taxable position -- welcome to the world.

 

As far as those besmirching Thailand, or the US -- for sure, both countries have serious problems. But, the glass is not half empty, as your negative remarks indicate. There are many compensating positives that should be emphasized.

 

My roots became deep in Thailand, once we gave up moving into a retirement home planned on a North Carolina golf course; the wife and I loved Thailand, and analyzing long term care costs -- whose expense was shown by my folk's example -- showed Thailand trumped the golf course. And our home here was built single story, with extra rooms for long term care nurses. Now, being aged 80, golf in NC is out of the question. And future nurse occupation here in Thailand seems more certain. Fortunately, this new tax situation has no affect whatsoever on this scenario, as there will be no new taxes.

 

Anyway, Yanks and Canucks -- make sure you do the math, before you head screaming for the borders. Others, well, adios -- may your lives remain tax free.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gknrd]

6 hours ago, lordgrinz said:

 

If I were "wealthier", the last place I would ever want to live is in this cesspool......I think the Thai government is delusional!

 

Don't let Youtube and posts here sway you in the least. I am not rich by any stretch of the imagination. But, even if you have a few bucks to invest you would never do it in Thailand. Contrary to the delusional thinking of the Thai's. Most people that have a few dollars don't trow it away.  Problem is Thailand has attracted the people that sell out and throw their money away very fast .  It gives the impression all westerners are the same. So they target them. Now that the government is involved in that mindset, they will see just how fast that stops. And it won't bring in vast sums of money like they predict. Just the opposite will happen.

As far as the US helping Thailand with educating and helping Thailand implement the tax scheme. It is all part of the plan to be nice, and helpful in SE Asia. Trying to help relations. A Cold War is here with China, and the US is just trying to show and hopefully get support in suppressing China. It is going on in all countries that have a huge China presence. 

First thing most investors do is look at the health and prosperity of the Stock Market, China is a joke, Thailand is not far behind. Look at the millionaire maps here. People go where the money is. The US is one of the top on the list. China is the last on the list. Thailand will go down like China. All authoritarian countries are the same.  They start with a boom then go down in flames.

 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, Gknrd said:

 

Don't let Youtube and posts here sway you in the least. I am not rich by any stretch of the imagination. But, even if you have a few bucks to invest you would never do it in Thailand. Contrary to the delusional thinking of the Thai's. Most people that have a few dollars don't trow it away.  Problem is Thailand has attracted the people that sell out and throw their money away very fast .  It gives the impression all westerners are the same. So they target them. Now that the government is involved in that mindset, they will see just how fast that stops. And it won't bring in vast sums of money like they predict. Just the opposite will happen.

As far as the US helping Thailand with educating and helping Thailand implement the tax scheme. It is all part of the plan to be nice, and helpful in SE Asia. Trying to help relations. A Cold War is here with China, and the US is just trying to show and hopefully get support in suppressing China. It is going on in all countries that have a huge China presence. 

 

Good post, true too, free spending expats and retirees have created the myth that everyone happily spends the same way and are happy for that to continue.

[Tonyfarang]

4 minutes ago, Gknrd said:

 It gives the impression all westerners are the same. So they target them. Now that the government is involved in that mindset, they will see just how fast that stops. And it won't bring in vast sums of money like they predict. Just the opposite will happen.

I definitely agree! That's my approach too, and I've decided to move away immediately once they officially announce it. No looking back after that. I've spent a fortune here, and I've already paused any further expenses until the official announcement. In fact, I've started selling some of my belongings. Regardless of whether they implement it or not, I'm cautious about spending more. If they do proceed with it, I feel it's time for me to leave. If not, I'll stay but on a limited budget, always prepared for any future changes.

[Presnock]

22 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Reading many of your posts, I'm assuming you have a US govt pension, Social Security, and maybe some IRA drawdown. I'm in the same boat. And we're both over the $80k/pa to qualify for the LTR visa. And for me, and probably you, most of my income does not include capital gains. Thus, should the LTR tax exemption be cancelled, I'd still be in neutral taxation position, whereby, even now with Thai tax on my worldwide income, this is the same income I've been paying US income for years. And the US tax would now be reduced, dollar for dollar, by a Thai tax credit.

 

Yes, there are outlier US taxpayers out there. The folks with large amounts of capital gain income, which, should Thailand go worldwide taxation, would now lose the US tax discount for long term cap gains. And pay a substantial taxation penalty, what with Thailand taxing at full, not discounted, rates. But I seriously doubt we're talking too many folks here.

 

And then, the US folks, with poverty level income, that pay no US tax now. But, with Thai worldwide taxation, may now pay some (but not much tax) to Thailand. Oh well.

 

My point: Most US taxpayers, I'd even say 90%, would not have a new tax obligation with the worldwide tax proposal -- since new Thai taxes would be credits absorbed in your US taxes. Yes, the added irritant of having to now file a Thai return is there -- but, hey, probably not too difficult a path to take.

 

And, as an aside, a recent look at the Thai-Canada DTA shows that Canadians have an even better deal, as all their pensions -- govt, private, and IRA-like payouts -- are exclusively taxable by Canada. Maybe that's why we're not hearing a lot of complaints here from Canadians.....

 

Anyway, all the screaming and shouting here from all those folks abandoning ship -- because they may have a future tax bill (increase) -- may be amusing, should the screamers be Americans or Canadians who can't do the math (with apologies to the few cap gain outliers). For Old World types, who now find themselves in a taxable position -- welcome to the world.

 

As far as those besmirching Thailand, or the US -- for sure, both countries have serious problems. But, the glass is not half empty, as your negative remarks indicate. There are many compensating positives that should be emphasized.

 

My roots became deep in Thailand, once we gave up moving into a retirement home planned on a North Carolina golf course; the wife and I loved Thailand, and analyzing long term care costs -- whose expense was shown by my folk's example -- showed Thailand trumped the golf course. And our home here was built single story, with extra rooms for long term care nurses. Now, being aged 80, golf in NC is out of the question. And future nurse occupation here in Thailand seems more certain. Fortunately, this new tax situation has no affect whatsoever on this scenario, as there will be no new taxes.

 

Anyway, Yanks and Canucks -- make sure you do the math, before you head screaming for the borders. Others, well, adios -- may your lives remain tax free.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with you.  I only have a US govt pension and could live comfortably in the US.  However, most of my career was in warmer countries (except for EU assignments and then not too cold) but I learned a long time ago that I hate cold weather with a passion - might have come from survival school in the military in the Sierras with 5 feet of snow on the ground and temps at -21 F. Anyway when it came time to retire, my wife had died of breast cancer not long before.  I really like the PI (2 assignments) but during my time there I experienced floods, typhoons, volcano eruptions, earthquakes (8+) but the weather was just like here almost but here, after 4 tours I knew I liked the food, spoke the language, loved golf (first time every played here near pattya and fell in love with it) so opted to retire here.  I haven't regretted it at all and still love it.  I ended up not long after retirement marrying a Thai, we have a 20-year old daughter in a BKK  college, now in summer school in Seoul , we own a house in CM but are renting a house here in BKK because we had a couple of Siberians.  We had planned on college in the US (accepted with scholarships) but problems getting wife a visitors visa because since I had retired here they felt she wouldn't return so couldn't make that first year there and daughter is doing an arts/language degree so is at the #1 college here -much cheaper than going to the states too.  We have noticed the smog (during the burning season) getting worse each year but wife doesn't want to sell the house but wants to travel during that period to someplace out of the smog so that is the plan.  I have an LTR and only the pension so I feel pretty well insulated from any new taxes.  I do wonder about BRICS though, whether that might cause any unforseen problems but who knows when that might go through and if I will even be alive anyway.  Life goes on, first came here in 1972 and while it has changed a lot, society is still about the same so no surprises there either.  Take care and hope all goes well for you and yours.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

Life goes on, first came here in 1972

Did you then work in the US Embassy, as you alluded to in an earlier post? My wife worked there then, before PanAm hired her away, to serve coffee and give blow-job demos in life jackets.

[Presnock]

11 minutes ago, JimGant said:

Did you then work in the US Embassy, as you alluded to in an earlier post? My wife worked there then, before PanAm hired her away, to serve coffee and give blow-job demos in life jackets.

yeah, 72-73 but mostly then upcountry, 76-79 78-2000 and 2003-2005 at the main bldg.  When was your wife there?

[JimGant]

1 minute ago, Presnock said:

yeah, 72-73 but mostly then upcountry, 76-79 78-2000 and 2003-2005 at the main bldg.  When was your wife there?

70-72. Her boyfriend then was Phil Mayhew, economics guy, then consul general for a year at Udorn, in 1972. He later returned to Thailand, and was DCM in, I believe, the years you mentioned. We attended his funeral at Arlington a few years back. Obviously, you were State Dept, which means you get no Social Security, which most readers probably don't understand. Also there in 72-73 was Victor Tomseth, who married another embassy worker, Wallapa. Victor was later DCM in Iran, when the hostage crisis hit. And later ambassador to Laos. Wife and Wallapa still keep in contact. Small world, eh?

[Presnock]

12 hours ago, JimGant said:

70-72. Her boyfriend then was Phil Mayhew, economics guy, then consul general for a year at Udorn, in 1972. He later returned to Thailand, and was DCM in, I believe, the years you mentioned. We attended his funeral at Arlington a few years back. Obviously, you were State Dept, which means you get no Social Security, which most readers probably don't understand. Also there in 72-73 was Victor Tomseth, who married another embassy worker, Wallapa. Victor was later DCM in Iran, when the hostage crisis hit. And later ambassador to Laos. Wife and Wallapa still keep in contact. Small world, eh?

Is definitely a small world especially when a group has members from within or around the diplomatic circles as though it may seem large it is actually a small world.  In those early years of being in Thailand, while assigned to the embassy I spent almost the full time as a tech rep to the airforce at NKP, thus knowing folks in the Embassy and still remembering them has faded away.  Later years in the Embassy I was an office chief and on the country team so would recall maybe the ambo and one or two of the other team members depending on interactions - I avoided most state political folks if possible.  I spent one tour in the old embassy bldg and two later tours in the new bldg.  The dip staff grew tremendously as did the locals numbers. I barely remember all those who worked for me let alone those I might occasionally interact with but one just never knows as some also belonged to the embassy golf club which I joined and played in all the tournments.  Some years I also played on the one of the softball teams we had and of course bowling teams too but while I might remember some of them if I saw them again who knows.  I have been in Thailand most of the  time since I retired in 2005 and have only met 3 folks

that I knew well enough to call them by name - met in immigration waiting room.  BTW, under the 1987 rule change, civil service changed to a new retirement system where by their retirement could also include social security.  I of course recommended my people to stay in CSRS as any change is to cut the benefits to save money but...to each their own.  I am expremely pleased with the benefits that my office provided me in my retirement and my wife will  enjoy that which she will get as I pass on before her (most likely).  I plan to remain in Thailand until....take care have a good one

[MarkBR]

18 hours ago, Tonyfarang said:

And to add here, I am adding this link of the recent "mistake" of Norway in an attempt to raise their wealth tax; the super wealthy left "at world record" : The Guardian - Super-rich abandoning Norway at record rate as wealth tax rises slightly.

I am also sharing this graph, which says a lot, showing wealthy residents relocating fast to other countries where they are benefiting.

It's a time when many countries are trying to attract wealthy residents, drawing in wealth and money. You see it everywhere: visas, programs, tax-free offers, etc., inviting people to join several countries. This is part of globalization—competition and challenges. Several countries offer residential visas, citizenship by investments, opportunities to buy land, permanent residencies, tax-free benefits, and more. It's the time when countries try to attract the right people and improve their economy.

It's an amazing time for Thailand to think cleverly and attract the people who respect the country, bring their wealth in, invest, and have significant things to offer.

We all love Thailand like nothing else, and that's why we are here. It is heartbreaking to consider leaving such a wonderful country that we deeply cherish and respect. It's so sad to even think about leaving. We hope for a solution that allows us to continue investing in and contributing to this beautiful country that we call home, hoping for the best.

 

Thailand needs to be careful.  All the people bring money, and spend their money will be gone especially those with wealth who do not have family links to Thailand.  

 

[Tonyfarang]

.

[Tonyfarang]

5 hours ago, MarkBR said:

Thailand needs to be careful.  All the people bring money, and spend their money will be gone especially those with wealth who do not have family links to Thailand.  

 

Exactly!

[JimGant]

On 6/28/2024 at 3:42 PM, Tonyfarang said:

and I've decided to move away immediately once they officially announce it

Out of curiosity, what country are you from? And, how much will your taxes increase, under either the new remittance system, or under the potential worldwide income method? Or will they increase at all?

[tomkenet]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Out of curiosity, what country are you from? And, how much will your taxes increase, under either the new remittance system, or under the potential worldwide income method? Or will they increase at all?

Thai taxes will probably be lower in many cases. But In my home country I get free good quality schools for my kids, good quality healthcare and I get voting rights and equally treatment. 

The most scary part however is having to deal with a revenue department with bad English skill.

 

[Yellowtail]

11 hours ago, MarkBR said:

-Thailand needs to be careful.  All the people bring money, and spend their money will be gone especially those with wealth who do not have family links to Thailand.  

 

I doubt very much that non-working expat bring a whole lot in the scheme of things, likely a drop in the bucket compared to tourism, and tourists don't give a rat's about what taxes expats pay.